DayZ: Why Complexity Is A Good Thing

[iongaming33@aim.com 137]

So, with all the Zombie Apocalypse games coming out, I'd like to look at what is hopefully going to be one of the things that makes DayZ different. 

 

I think the complexity of the game's system is going to play a big role in many people's enjoyment of the game. Many systems already have very complex mechanics to them; take the medical system, for example. Different blood types, different vitamins, different medications and chemicals to solve various issues. All of these things require some knowledge to use and be successful with. Now, DayZ has taken a lot of flak from certain people about things like this being unnecessarily unrealistic. While I see where these complaints are coming from, I really hope that DayZ continues in this direction, making all things just as complicated as giving the right blood to the right person. 

 

As DayZ has no "class, role, or skill" systems, it is things like the medical system that make true "classes". The complex medical system brings the need to have somebody experienced in this field, a "medic". To be successful you must try different solutions to issues, and actually learn what makes things work. As you succeed and fail at different things, you become specialized in certain areas of the game. 

 

I really hope to see these complex systems continue to develop with everything in the game. Vehicles, for example. I really hope that they require not only the necessary parts to fix, but the skill and knowledge of how to use these parts to get something working. You need to know which part goes where, how to tune this dial, how much oil to put in here, etc... Eventually we might see forum posts popping up like "Looking for a medic, mechanic, navigator, sniper, pilot etc..." 

 

On a side note, perhaps to accompany these systems, there could be certain books that act as skill books, but actually teach you how to do something. Most books in game now are just novels, poems, and other literature, but imagine if you could find a book that told you all about blood types, or how to fix a small car. 

 

What do you think? Is DayZ too realistic? Should it just be a loot & shoot? Or should it be an apocalypse simulator?

Edited May 11, 2014 by Jigsaw115

[gibonez 3633]

The focus on streamlining things in Stand Alone compared to the mod is what will kill dayz.

 

Without simulation and thus depth Dayz is a crappy zombie game with no redeeming features or attributes.

Without simulation it will not be able to compete or even be up to par with the dozens of zombie games that will surely come out during the same timespan.

 

They simple do not have the budget or the talent to compete with a triple A developer.

 

However if they go full on with sim aspects,simulation for sniping, shooting, medical, crafting , realistic accessories.

 

If it goes for realism on all of these aspects dayz will be a triumph if it goes for mainstream appeal dayz will crash and burn.

[n1kko 326]

 What do you think? Is DayZ too realistic? Should it just be a loot & shoot? Or should it be an apocalypse simulator?

Turn this into a poll, i'm curious to what everyone will say.  Me personally, I want it to be a very hard and very intense apocalypse simulator, and what the presentation Dean showed at Rezzed will hopefully make that happen.

 

The current loot and shoot state of the game will NOT be there forever.  When gear is mad rare, people will think twice before wanting to engage someone as the fear of losing your end game gear will actually hold some value.  I already have that play style, so when the transition comes, I won't have to make any changes, I will already have the mentality that my life has value, and so does the life of others, and I think once that rule is established, it will open the door to more stranger interaction, and possibly trading.

[iongaming33@aim.com 137]

The focus on streamlining things in Stand Alone compared to the mod is what will kill dayz.

 

Without simulation and thus depth Dayz is a crappy zombie game with no redeeming features or attributes.

Without simulation it will not be able to compete or even be up to par with the dozens of zombie games that will surely come out during the same timespan.

 

They simple do not have the budget or the talent to compete with a triple A developer.

 

However if they go full on with sim aspects,simulation for sniping, shooting, medical, crafting , realistic accessories.

 

If it goes for realism on all of these aspects dayz will be a triumph if it goes for mainstream appeal dayz will crash and burn.

Yeah I think DayZ already has all the appeal and attention it needs, and it needs to continue to be what made it popular, a realistic zombie apocalypse simulator. Think about why DayZ became so popular, Dean Hall threw together the exactly correct combination of elements, and it exploded. 

 

So far I think the team is on the right track, I'm just a bit uneasy at all the outcry there has been about the realism being over the top.

[gibonez 3633]

So far I think the team is on the right track, I'm just a bit uneasy at all the outcry there has been about the realism being over the top.

 

This is from the new fans who have no frame of reference.

 

These same new fans have no prior experience with Bohemia Interactive or any mil sim so they do not understand the satisfaction and depth they present.

 

They want quick satisfaction and accessibility two things that will absolutely kill dayz.

[eleventhavenue 204]

So many games today follow the Gameplay > Realism formula.

I want DayZ to follow the Realism = Gameplay formula instead. And I think, from the popularity of the mod, that this is more attractive to potential customers than what most people think.

And now, with competitors, there are DayZ alternatives that are better funded and with more manpower. DayZ needs to be different. I think it has been made pretty clear that the competitors are going for a ´´accesible´´ game style, so let DayZ go the other way!

[Zing Freelancer 58]

There will always be problems of realism vs fun. So far the game have good amount of realism and I welcome more, but there is not enough fun. For me, the KoS aspect of the game has to go. I am tired of playing DayZ in constant paranoia that if I do not look around every corner, if I am not constantly aware of my surroundings, then I will get shot by other players who just happen to walk past me. Players who are out there to shoot others are fine, they put up a camp or a trap, they can be dealt with. But getting KoS by every damn player for absolutely no good reason, without even a chance to say "hello?", is just too annoying.

 

 

 

They want accessibility, satisfaction and depth. 

Fixed it for you, this is what customers want and in that particular order. Without depth there can be no satisfaction, but the "depth" has to be accessible, when a game has a depth and manage to ease players in it, it creates satisfaction. Don't you ever get it wrong again.

Edited May 11, 2014 by Zing Freelancer

[gibonez 3633]

 

Fixed it for you, this is what customers want and in that particular order. Without depth there can be no satisfaction, but the "depth" has to be accessible, when a game has a depth and manage to ease players in it, it creates satisfaction. Don't you ever get it wrong again.

 

 

 

There is a fine line that can easily be crossed when you make things accessible.

 

Accessibility and depth are polar opposites one has a easy learning curve and the other a steep one but ultimately one that is that much more rewarding and is able to last the test of time.

[Weyland Yutani (DayZ) 1159]

As DayZ has no "class, role, or skill" systems, it is things like the medical system that make true "classes". The complex medical system brings the need to have somebody experienced in this field, a "medic". To be successful you must try different solutions to issues, and actually learn what makes things work. As you succeed and fail at different things, you become specialized in certain areas of the game. 

 

I really hope to see these complex systems continue to develop with everything in the game. Vehicles, for example. I really hope that they require not only the necessary parts to fix, but the skill and knowledge of how to use these parts to get something working. You need to know which part goes where, how to tune this dial, how much oil to put in here, etc... Eventually we might see forum posts popping up like "Looking for a medic, mechanic, navigator, sniper, pilot etc..." 

 

A long way back, Dean Hall went over SA having proficiencies. I believe the video I saw he talked about medic and mechanic proficiencies in particular and the more you do them the better you get at them.

 

I'll look for the video when I get a free minute.

 

EDIT:

 

So finding the video might take time but I found this from last year in the meantime:

http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/144263-dayz-developer-blog-3rd-august-2013/?p=1430796

 

I think the video might have been about end-game…not sure, but I'm on the hunt now.

Edited May 11, 2014 by Weyland Yutani

[bfisher 561]

I am tired of playing DayZ in constant paranoia that if I do not look around every corner, if I am not constantly aware of my surroundings, then I will get shot by other players who just happen to walk past me. Players who are out there to shoot others are fine, they put up a camp or a trap, they can be dealt with. But getting KoS by every damn player for absolutely no good reason, without even a chance to say "hello?", is just too annoying.

 

 

LOL.  I think this game might not be for you then.  I mean what you describe is LITERALLY the point of the game.

[Zing Freelancer 58]

There is a fine line that can easily be crossed when you make things accessible.

 

Accessibility and depth are polar opposites one has a easy learning curve and the other a steep one but ultimately one that is that much more rewarding and is able to last the test of time.

You got it wrong again, games can have both depth and accessibility.

Think of the learning curve as a staircase, if you skip 3-5 steps, there will be a gap wide enough to make walking up to second floor nearly impossible for normal people, without having to work really hard to compensate for the missing steps. Of course there will be some people who can just leap over the gap and determinate enough people will still get to the second floor. Now by removing the steps and creating the gap you might have made it more "fun" to reach the second floor, but all you managed to accomplish is making your stairs inaccessible to the majority of the users.

 

A good game is supposed to be both user-friendly and accessible, the depth will determine for how long a game will continue to entertain a user. But at no point should DayZ resemble this:

[Zing Freelancer 58]

LOL.  I think this game might not be for you then.  I mean what you describe is LITERALLY the point of the game.

LOL. You might want to go back to playing CoD? Oh well fuck it, this insult is getting old anyway.

Maybe this game is not for me, because I seem to have unrealistic expectations. Is it so wrong of me to expect DayZ to be a zombie survival game and not a "Is Jack the Ripper in Town" simulator? The idea is that people are supposed to survive in a world filled with zombies and where did all the zombies go? Fair enough you kill one or two odd zombies running around, I am never paranoid about zombies, about not having enough food or drink, not even paranoid about not having a weapon. The only thing that worries me is when will I NOT see another player coming, who will realize that I do not see him and just shoot me, because why the fuck not?

[gibonez 3633]

You got it wrong again, games can have both depth and accessibility.

Think of the learning curve as a staircase, if you skip 3-5 steps, there will be a gap wide enough to make walking up to second floor nearly impossible for normal people, without having to work really hard to compensate for the missing steps. Of course there will be some people who can just leap over the gap and determinate enough people will still get to the second floor. Now by removing the steps and creating the gap you might have made it more "fun" to reach the second floor, but all you managed to accomplish is making your stairs inaccessible to the majority of the users.

 

A good game is supposed to be both user-friendly and accessible, the depth will determine for how long a game will continue to entertain a user. But at no point should DayZ resemble this:

 

ahah that graph is hilarious.

 

My ideal complexity level for dayz would be ACE mod.

 

ACE mod has a weight system stamina system and a realistic wound system .

 

All of these things require a steep learning curve and thoughtful planning.

 

However they are bundled with greater player control through features such as weapon resting, realistic sniping and greater inventory control so it balances out.

[xalienax 621]

You got it wrong again, games can have both depth and accessibility.

Think of the learning curve as a staircase, if you skip 3-5 steps, there will be a gap wide enough to make walking up to second floor nearly impossible for normal people, without having to work really hard to compensate for the missing steps. Of course there will be some people who can just leap over the gap and determinate enough people will still get to the second floor. Now by removing the steps and creating the gap you might have made it more "fun" to reach the second floor, but all you managed to accomplish is making your stairs inaccessible to the majority of the users.

 

A good game is supposed to be both user-friendly and accessible, the depth will determine for how long a game will continue to entertain a user. But at no point should DayZ resemble this:

Love that Pic. as an EVE player thats why i still play it. the celling is extremely hig and those with a decade infvested are not forced to meet on equal terms with newcomers (See: Sov, Super caps, Coalition politics, etc) The idea that i am some how ahead for all the time spent skilling and learning different aspect of the games and satying informed on player driven politics. At times it can me more over bearing then having a 2nd full-time job but so rewarding.

#Bitter Vet gamers Rule

[randomspawn 215]

Skill proficiency will be okay, maybe good or bad. I'm sure some people will experiment, but most will do what we all do, GOOGLE. I will be able to see exactly how to fix your crappy bullet-ridden body with a simple youtube video. You can make it like WOW professions I guess, and require you to complete certain 'recipes' to gain skill. Of course, if DAYZ keeps the current minimal interface, you won't know if you have gotten better or not. You won't have a meter or number showing what level you are at. 

 

I want sniper proficiency though. Maybe other combat roles as well. Then you can put together hit squads of qualified people.

[Irish. 4886]

I want it to be much, much more difficult than the mod was.. I want to feel excited again when I survive a trip up North and back. And I still want to be able to get into as much pvp as possible while doing it. As long as its a huge learning curve, and they dont focus on trying to stop things like long range sniping, etc.. Then Im happy. 

 

They have already said that vehicles will be tough to maintain and get working, so that will be good. The mods had it close, but not enough.. it should be a huge pain to get a working car or vehicle of any kind. And an extremely rare gem to find one that maybe only needs gas, or a new battery. You should spend days finding parts, and working on your found truck. And as your bringing the last wheel you need back to it, you find someone else has taken it away.. all that hard work for nothing. Or.. you could go find it. :) Thats how DayZ should be. A pain in the ass, but each step enjoyable. 

Edited May 12, 2014 by lrish

[qww 287]

i want as much realism as possible, and im hoping for the best, while being realistic myself and understanding that this is a popular product, and that dayz wants to be a success.

dayz and arma are the only realistic fp(s) games in my view, and thats why i respect what they do so much

Edited May 12, 2014 by qww

[blazinone 72]

Offsetting the existing Soldier and Medic styles with Engineers for fixing vehicles, Hunters and maybe Pilots would be awesome.

 

If they added a basic agriculture system for picking flowers/herbs I could see an Herbalist type class/specialty as well.

 

And I love the realism of the game so far, but the tricky thing is making it usable and not clunky. A few tweaks here and there and we'll be close.

[gibonez 3633]

i want as much realism as possible, and im hoping for the best, while being realistic myself and understanding that this is a popular product, and that dayz wants to be a success.

dayz and arma are the only realistic fp(s) games in my view, and thats why i respect what they do so much

 

Dayz could be an ultra realistic sim and it will still be ultra successful, dayz is the one product that does not need to be accesible to sell.

 

It has sold 2 million copies solely on word of mouth.

[soulfirez 901]

WHy are so many gamers so dependant on being hand held?? The reward the fun of beating something that is frustratingly hard is the greatest fun going lol.

For myself i always hated RTS games its usually a case of build up produce your top level unit spam destroy etc I found nothing overly rewarding in much of this genre until i hit a game series called wargame....

 

Now there is a RTS that is difficult as all hell ,has a learning curve which is rather extreme the AI on easy will spank you over and over until you start to learn the basics then it will just beat you till you learn the finer points of countering each unit type using recon etc etc then it will merely challenge you and then you turn it up and when you finally think you have it you play online and the world of military strategists spank you over and over lol.

 

How does this relate to Dayz hmm my average time spent in an RTS 5 or 6 hours then there is nothing left to learn anymore really my time spent in the wargame series more than 500 hours and id say i am average at best but when i win or even fight to a draw the satisfaction i get is HUGE. I want dayz to give me that in a zed apoch. I want to die over and over till i learn the tactics that work and then i want to slowly learn the more involved systems crafting medical etc etc with every step of the way being hard so when i survive the day i feel i have done something... But mehh maybe i am just sick i like to lose alot to make winning all that much sweeter...

[hombrecz 832]

Just don't expect ultra realism, Devs already stated 100x times they are aiming for authenticity over realism.

Now that statement might have been about adding stuff into the game, but it seemed as a general one.

 

What would be ultra fail is, if the SA was less realistic & simulation than Mod was.

It was mod that made them succeed with SA, if they steer away from mod's simulation parts, it would feel like betrayal or stupidity.

Edited May 12, 2014 by Hombre

[gibonez 3633]

Just don't expect ultra realism, Devs already stated 100x times they are aiming for authenticity over realism.

Now that statement might have been about adding stuff into the game, but it seemed as a general one.

 

What would be ultra fail is, if the SA was less realistic & simulation than Mod was.

It was mod that made them succeed with SA, if they steer away from mod's simulation parts, it would feel like betrayal or stupidity.

 

Words right out of my heart.

 

I honestly hope the current implementation is just place holder and they do not continue with this unrealistic approach.

 

Arma 2 and 3 are also not ultra realistic they are authentic however.

 

Dayz has a golden opportunity to push realism and deliver a game that is rich with depth and challege a game people will cherish for years always challenging themselves and finding new experiences.

 

A move towards unrealistic features would shit on this potential and more importantly Alienate the fans who made dayz what it is today, it would alienate the people who played the mod the first week it was out and who pushed the mod onto others.

 

Sadly all signs point to Dayz Stand Alone being marketed towards a casual fanbase.

 

- The unrealistic movement and sprint speed

- Unrealistic inventory system that allows you to access your backpack and all your contents while sprinting full speed.

- The insanely atrocious dispersion and unrealistic weapon attachment system.

 

All blatant signs of a game where realism does not matter but more importantly a game who forgot its lineage and mil sim history.

[iongaming33@aim.com 137]

I want it to be much, much more difficult than the mod was. Thats how DayZ should be. A pain in the ass, but each step enjoyable.

Totally agree, it should be intense, exciting, and massive. The reason I fell in love with the mod was the feelings it gave me. DayZ gave me a rush I couldn't get anywhere else. So far, the standalone doesn't give me these feelings. A lot of this can be attributed to the fact that I know Chernarus like the back of my hand, but a ton of other stuff is missing.

[FrostDMG 398]

I wish I could erase the memory of Chernarus... If I could play the game once more as a noob... God that was fun!

 

I definitely agree that game should have TONS of features that you find out on your own - I strongly discourage any new players (or anyone at all) from going onto wikia or any other website that tells you how to do stuff in an open world game. One of the most awesome things was finding out how things work, i.e I need an axe and matches to make a fire, then I have to set the fire up and light it.

 

That's pretty damn awesome, even if it is incredibly simplistic. 

[xalienax 621]

Agree with OP 100%

 

games with complexity and/or depth are the ones that stand the test of time.

Look at BF2 and the way its balanced and reliant on a team effort to over come the fact the vehicles Are GODS in open terrain. Now look at BfBC2 and BF3 how quickly those dwindeled folllowing the same formula as every other shoother while BF2 still enjoys a devoted player base of dedicated vets.

EVE Online is a shining example of what can happen when an MMO takes complexity to the extreme. Mnay many first time trails are put off by beying smacked in the face with an endless array of possibilities and options most of which require anything from weeks to years to even think of obtaining. 10+ years later it continues to enjoy a devoted and growing playerbase.