DayZ: Why Complexity Is A Good Thing

[Katana67 2907]

I've long said it, and one of my few interactions with Rocket on this forum was had when I said...

 

"Complex does not mean complicated"

 

What I think is the issue with 99% of the "realism" folks, is that they don't even CONSIDER the in-game benefits that said suggestion would yield. They just say "X is realistic/unrealistic, so therefore it should/shoudn't be included because it's realistic/unrealistic." Which is detrimental in the long term, because then you have people decrying legitimate mechanics just because of the premise that they're realistic. They also do themselves a disservice by not expanding upon how something realistic, could also be beneficial to gameplay (i.e. a lack of random spread with weapons).

 

Why can't we just deal with mechanics? Why do we have to assign "realistic" or "unrealistic" connotations to things? It inevitably clouds the question of "How would this particular suggestion affect gameplay?"

 

Which is why I like your use of complex, because ultimately, nothing in DayZ is purely realistic. But I want things to be complex, as to demonstrate the individual skill/knowhow of the player. And, to add a bit of variety in terms of gameplay.

 

For example, one who knows a lot about how cars work, could market his/her skills in Chernarus as a mechanic. If one actually had to jack up a vehicle, loot a tire/rim, mount the tire, torque down the individual nuts, and fill the tire up to a recommended pressure, one could actually demonstrate a skill. Plus, it would add a fun new exploratory process for the uninitiated player.

 

That's the issue I have now, there are a lot of actions in DayZ (i.e. click "Use" to bandage) but not a lot of activities in DayZ (i.e. locate wound, sterilize, stop bleeding, dress wound, redress wound, etc.)

Edited May 12, 2014 by Katana67

[xalienax 621]

I've long said it, and one of my few interactions with Rocket on this forum was had when I said...

 

"Complex does not mean complicated"

 

What I think is the issue with 99% of the "realism" folks, is that they don't even CONSIDER the in-game benefits that said suggestion would yield. They just say "X is realistic, so therefore it should be included because it's realistic." Which is detrimental in the long term, because then you have people decrying legitimate mechanics just because of the premise that they're realistic. They also do themselves a disservice by not expanding upon how something realistic, could also be beneficial to gameplay (i.e. a lack of random spread with weapons).

 

Why can't we just deal with mechanics? Why do we have to assign "realistic" or "unrealistic" connotations to things? It inevitably clouds the question of "How would this particular suggestion affect gameplay?"

 

Which is why I like your use of complex, because ultimately, nothing in DayZ is purely realistic. But I want things to be complex, as to demonstrate the individual skill/knowhow of the player. And, to add a bit of variety in terms of gameplay.

 

For example, one who knows a lot about how cars work, could market his/her skills in Chernarus as a mechanic. If one actually had to jack up a vehicle, loot a tire/rim, mount the tire, torque down the individual nuts, and fill the tire up to a recommended pressure, one could actually demonstrate a skill. Plus, it would add a fun new exploratory process for the uninitiated player.

 

That's the issue I have now, there are a lot of actions in DayZ (i.e. click "Use" to bandage) but not a lot of activities in DayZ (i.e. locate wound, sterilize, stop bleeding, dress wound, redress wound, etc.)

well said. this is one of the issues that my often referenced source for complexity (eve) goes haywire on. Its a game that was raised and supported purely by hardcore followers and for some years of its development gave little concern to new initiates into the title. as a result the tutorials were either no existant, or very week. the User-Interface was build around flooding the 10hr-a-day elitists multi boxer with every convievable bit of ino he or she would ever need. options to streamline or cutomize are often obscure. As a result i feel the game lost a lot of good players simply by being over complicated.. or having the preception of being over complicated.

 

Realistic things are good. Complexity and depth are good. these, however, are no excuse for making game play a mind numbing 3d version of spreadsheets or forcing players to deal with a cumbersome UI. Think of DCS black shark or A-10C. those are GREAT sims and real to life accurate as one can get without being in an actual simulation capsule on hydraulics. that said expecting a Player in a game that has many other elements to contend with to learn to memory hundreds of controls and need to program a stick or yoke to fly an aircraft with any degree of decency is somewhat unreaonsable in a multi-faceted game like dayZ

[calabam 55]

The game still has to be fun to play for the 2milliion people who have already bought it so yes it has to be tough and unforgiving but there has to be a balance and not just for the small amount of the player base who post on here and reddit.

[gibonez 3633]

The game still has to be fun to play for the 2milliion people who have already bought it so yes it has to be tough and unforgiving but there has to be a balance and not just for the small amount of the player base who post on here and reddit.

 

Fine then make it realistic for the over 2+ million people who owned arma 2 and played the mod.

 

Making the game accessible is not to their benefit its for the new players into the series the casual console gamer.

[xX_fr0st-w0lf_Xx (DayZ) 343]

Fine then make it realistic for the over 2+ million people who owned arma 2 and played the mod.

 

Making the game accessible is not to their benefit its for the new players into the series the casual console gamer.

 

There is a balance between realism and fun. 

Arma 2 ACE = perfect balance. 

 

In the end it is a game, and a balance must be achieved. Only the best developers are able to delivery fun through realism. While the rest split it half half.

 

-selecting compass (3-6 times depending on desync)

-pressing space

-opening compass

- tilting head to look at compass

 

^^ this is not fun. This is tedious. I hope they do not follow that approach.

 

The medical system on the other hand is fun and intriguing, a much better approach.  

[gibonez 3633]

There is a balance between realism and fun. 

Arma 2 ACE = perfect balance. 

 

In the end it is a game, and a balance must be achieved. Only the best developers are able to delivery fun through realism. While the rest split it half half.

 

-selecting compass (3-6 times depending on desync)

-pressing space

-opening compass

- tilting head to look at compass

 

^^ this is not fun. This is tedious. I hope they do not follow that approach.

 

The medical system on the other hand is fun and intriguing, a much better approach.  

 

 

ACE was indeed perfect

 

Wind + higher dispersion compared to arma 2 + weapon resting and bipod deployment = amazing gunfights that were so satisfying.

[bfisher 561]

People don't want "realism".  A 24 hour day/night cycle, dying of thirst in 3 days and hunger in a month is realistic. It's also stupid and not playable.  As someone upthread pointed out, what people want is something "authentic" and relatively intuitive.  You get hungry and need food.  You get thirsty, you need water.  You get sick or injured, you need appropriate health care.  You get cold, you need a fire or warm clothes or catch the flu or even die from hypothermia.  You get hot you need to take off that pack and puffy coat so you don't get heat stroke.  Spend too much time in the sun, you get sunburned.  Eat rotten fruit or dirty stream water, you might get really sick if you don't cook/boil it first.  And your probably will have to eat rotten food since the refrigerators stopped working a long time ago. 

 

That's what the Mod had (more or less). 

 

Sure there was still KoS.  But it was SO much more rewarding to KoS someone because I desperately needed antibiotics and it turns out he had them! 

 

Really, I don't play that much right now because there isn't anything to really do except murder people and that's boring.  Hopefully in a few months, they'll have implemented a lot more environmental stuff so there will be more survival shit to keep yourself occupied...between murdering people.

[gibonez 3633]

People don't want "realism".  A 24 hour day/night cycle, dying of thirst in 3 days and hunger in a month is realistic. It's also stupid and not playable.  As someone upthread pointed out, what people want is something "authentic" and relatively intuitive.  You get hungry and need food.  You get thirsty, you need water.  You get sick or injured, you need appropriate health care.  You get cold, you need a fire or warm clothes or catch the flu or even die from hypothermia.  You get hot you need to take off that pack and puffy coat so you don't get heat stroke.  Spend too much time in the sun, you get sunburned.  Eat rotten fruit or dirty stream water, you might get really sick if you don't cook/boil it first.  And your probably will have to eat rotten food since the refrigerators stopped working a long time ago. 

 

That's what the Mod had (more or less). 

 

Sure there was still KoS.  But it was SO much more rewarding to KoS someone because I desperately needed antibiotics and it turns out he had them! 

 

Really, I don't play that much right now because there isn't anything to really do except murder people and that's boring.  Hopefully in a few months, they'll have implemented a lot more environmental stuff so there will be more survival shit to keep yourself occupied...between murdering people.

 

Sure part of the problem now is how inconsistent everything seems.

 

Some aspects seem relatively realistic and authentic yet others like weapons and damage model are so insanely unrealistic and inconsistent that they counter anything realistic in the game.

[iongaming33@aim.com 137]

There is a balance between realism and fun. 

Arma 2 ACE = perfect balance. 

 

In the end it is a game, and a balance must be achieved. Only the best developers are able to delivery fun through realism. While the rest split it half half.

 

-selecting compass (3-6 times depending on desync)

-pressing space

-opening compass

- tilting head to look at compass

 

^^ this is not fun. This is tedious. I hope they do not follow that approach.

 

The medical system on the other hand is fun and intriguing, a much better approach.  

It may seem overly tedious because of the laggy engine, having to press a button 60 times to get it out, and then it puts it away, it's annoying. However, things like these are important. Pressing K for a magic compass to appear on your screen makes things like firefight communication very easy and OP. Having to put your gun away and taking a risk to tell your team where a threat is makes sense. A magic compass shouldn't just pop up. Maybe a good balance could be a hotkey to get it out in one hand, holding whatever else you're doing in the other. Or maybe it could be attached to your character somewhere and all you need to do is look down at it. 

[weedmasta 784]

Complexity is not always a good thing because sometimes to make a game more enjoyable and/or work/act as intended you need to sacrifice complexity for game-play. Some people on these forums unfortunately fail to realise that and make ridiculous suggestions like dental hygiene.

I am all for complexity but not to the point where it makes a game like a chore or hinders game-play to the point where it is annoying or even game-breaking.

[iongaming33@aim.com 137]

Complexity is not always a good thing because sometimes to make a game more enjoyable and/or work/act as intended you need to sacrifice complexity for game-play. Some people on these forums unfortunately fail to realise that and make ridiculous suggestions like dental hygiene.

I am all for complexity but not to the point where it makes a game like a chore or hinders game-play to the point where it is annoying or even game-breaking.

Agreed there shouldn't be extra systems that are chores to do, but the systems that ARE in place/planned should be complex enough to allow definite different levels of experience with these systems.

[Nesuma (DayZ) 108]

I really hope to see these complex systems continue to develop with everything in the game. Vehicles, for example. I really hope that they require not only the necessary parts to fix, but the skill and knowledge of how to use these parts to get something working. You need to know which part goes where, how to tune this dial, how much oil to put in here, etc... Eventually we might see forum posts popping up like "Looking for a medic, mechanic, navigator, sniper, pilot etc..." 

 

On a side note, perhaps to accompany these systems, there could be certain books that act as skill books, but actually teach you how to do something. Most books in game now are just novels, poems, and other literature, but imagine if you could find a book that told you all about blood types, or how to fix a small car. 

I agree with everything except this. I don't really want to try out which medicine heals which disease. This point is useless anyway because there will be enough pages on the internet. But I'd still like the part with learning from books maybe even with a small skill system, and not just with a dayzwiki text inside of dayz.

The best solution would be if you had to "play" a minigame for solving these problems. (Pulling the bullets in your magazine, one by one/ twist your mouse to open scews for changing wheels). Maybe there should still be a mousewheel option where you just click it but then it should take the maximum time and you can be faster by skill if you play the minigame well.