Information Vs. Immersion

[Nicko2580 398]

Edit: If you got here via the link in my sig, please scroll up for the poll.

I've seen a plethora of posts across the boards lately about status icons and providing more information and feedback to players about what's happening to their avatar. I'll list some of them here:

Infiltrators status icons thread: http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/175221-states-should-display-icons-not-textannoying-sounds/
Smell: http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/175393-whats-that-smell/
Psychological effects (thread 1): http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/175162-psychological-effects-of-trauma-mechanic-logical-and-fair-to-all/
Psychological effects (thread 2): http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/175264-psychological-effects/
The Dirty State: http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/175121-the-dirty-state/
Gameplay Mechanics Pt 1 - The Player: http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/169278-gameplay-mechanics-pt1-the-player/

And there are many more ideas floating around in topics here and in General Discussion.

I'd like to gauge how the community feels about status icons vs avatar generated information such as animations and sounds and how that relates to immersion and authenticity. Do you like icons and a GUI? Or does it break immersion for you?

It's my personal opinion that things like icons, text, and status updates in the inventory break immersion in what is probably the most immersive game I've played in a long time. I don't like seeing things appear on my screen. I might be on the far end of survivalist here, but I don't like my toolbar and I don't like the aiming reticule and having text updates breaks immersion for me. I don't like being told when I am 'healing' or 'healthy'. I can make exceptions for hunger and thirst, because they are fairly hard to model in a video game, but I think that most other things can be done without resorting to icons.

I feel that if a lot of the ideas for icons etc were implemented, we would end up with another 'survival' game that holds your hand throughout the entire process, constantly updating you on your status without you having to figure things out for yourself - something which I don't want and I am sure many of you don't either. There are many games which do this now, Day Z is great (for me at least) because at the moment that type of hand holding is pretty minimum.

As of now many things are represented quite well by animations and sounds and do not require a text or icon update (they have them, but I don't think they're needed currently) to let us know what's happening:

• Bleeding - animation (granted this needs to be redone to look better).
• Pain - shaking (in 1pp), moaning.
• Broken leg - inability to walk.
• Shock - unconsciousness if shock is higher than blood.
• Cold - player will shake from the cold, but not as much as pain. Breath mists in the air. 

I'd like to see peoples suggestions on firstly, whether they'd prefer icons/text or animations and secondly suggestions for animations that could be used for all the different status effects we can think of. For example:

• Wet - water drips off your body. Inspecting clothing will add a line that says, "This <Item> is damp and needs drying."
• Sick - sneezing. vomiting. shaking. sweat droplets (1pp)

Any other status effects you can think of feel free to post and discuss.

Edited February 20, 2014 by Nicko2580

[mithrawndo 166]

Immersion, immersion, immersion.

 

Status icons of some sort are, to my mind inevitable as the game increases in complexity. They should however be as unobtrusive as possible. However if they are introduced, I'd like to see the text chat window removed entirely as this is the single biggest immersion breaker in the current alpha. A small row of icons (or better yet, screen auras and effects) could show everything that the text currently displays.

 

Use a mic or get out might seem a little harsh, but this game is at it's best when Bohemia's voice chat system is used to it's fullest. Besides, there's not time to type in a player encounter!

[libertine 351]

Anything you would easily know about yourself in real life should not have to break immersion. Its the way its done that matters. I like that fact that they've kept the icons in the inventory for now, Rocket says he likes that too btw. They apparently had been planning to move them to the main screen.

 

Doing something like they did in BF3 hardcore mode and not providing any indication for which fire mode your on, single, burst or auto is downright mental.

Edited February 19, 2014 by Thane

[akafugitive 244]

I'm with you on correcting feedback by the visual/audio approach. I would rather see the cross hair removed also, hotbar doesn't bother me because it auto hides, nor does the text information.

We do need some feedback since we have no sense of touch, taste or smell in the game, text feedback on how you feel works well to allow you to know what you are feeling, weather it is hungry, ill, disgusted by something in the air. Combining both allows for way better connection with your player in my opinion, same sounds can have different causes and text feedback can allow for that to be comunicated:

Audio- Stomach growl

Text- I feel hungry

Audio- Stomach growl

Text- I feel nauseous

-And-

Audio- Coughing

Text- My throat is sore

Audio- Coughing

Text- My lungs burn

For the record my post focuses on primarily background game mechanics, I have touched on adding elements to have a better feeling when you have dropped something by accident(I would be able to feel this). One of the hardest things a game has to overcome is translating all 5 senses into visual and audio, I like DayZ's approach better then the mainstream HUDs.

Edited February 19, 2014 by akafugitive

[Nicko2580 398]

For the record my post focuses on primarily background game mechanics, I have touched on adding elements to have a better feeling when you have dropped something by accident(I would be able to feel this).

Yeah I know I just thought I'd add it because it relates to the topic, even indirectly. :)

[leitberkley 4]

As long as u make an animation/sound for every value that makes difference in your character's performance, u shouldn't need any icons or bars. Learning the game is part of the fun, like learning how to navigate on your own in the when u first start playing. Imo.

[Nicko2580 398]

So far:

68% of people want more information directly from their avatars compare to 31% who want more information from status updates and icons. 

95% of people don't want detailed information relating to health/blood/hydration etc (honestly expected that).

Survival is leading the list of most important things for people with 23% followed very closely by immersion (21%) and difficulty (18%). 

So at this early stage, it seems what most people want is a immersive, difficult game that focuses primarily on survival with less emphasis on a GUI. Judging by some of the comments and threads that I see in these forums, you would be forgiven for thinking that the opposite is true. :P

I am a bit surprised where fun ranks there though. I thought a lot more people would play for fun. However the sample size of votes is still pretty small so keep casting your votes and making suggestions guys!

Edited February 20, 2014 by Nicko2580

[Lupine 14]

I would still like more understanding of the actual controls... this is going to sound funny, but i have been playing more than 70 hours.. and the 3 times i have gotten rifles with scopes.. i still dont know how to LOOK through and use the scope to shoot or view things with it >< .. its just not intuitive.. i activate the weapon, i press space to arm it, i press mouse 2.. and im eyeballing the gun from the side like i am hip shooting.. I can't find anything on the wiki site actually telling me how to use the scope.. i don't know if my game client is at fault, or i am just not pressing the right controls.. I never played Arma series or Rust so.. in other games as soon as you mouse 2 the Zoom comes up (or Z for zoom) .. am i doing something wrong? can someone enlighten me please? :huh:

[Chaingunfighter 917]

I'm surprised there are more people that care about difficulty than fun. It's a game guys, you aren't playing it for fun!?

[Nicko2580 398]

I'm surprised there are more people that care about difficulty than fun. It's a game guys, you aren't playing it for fun!?

Personally I play for challenge in most multiplayer games. Fun is a secondary consideration (but a good challenge is also part of the fun), but I thought I was in the minority there. Battlefield, MechWarrior etc etc all for challenge.

If I want to play for fun, I will generally play a single player game like Elder Scrolls or Tomb Raider.

[Monkfish (DayZ) 339]

This. I play it because the brutality and randomness of it is such a refreshing change (and challenge) compared to every other cookie-cutter FPS out there. I get my fun from the style I play in and surviving dangerous situations or encounters. I want the game harder, more immersive and more authentic.

[Capo 323]

What's wrong with the statuses in your inventory? I feel enough information is being given, without shoving it in your face. 

[Capo 323]

I'm surprised there are more people that care about difficulty than fun. It's a game guys, you aren't playing it for fun!?

 

Try and find fun in the difficulty. I haven't been challenged by a game in a long time, I thirst for Dayz to be a challenge. 

[Nicko2580 398]

What's wrong with the statuses in your inventory? I feel enough information is being given, without shoving it in your face. 

Personally I think everything except the hunger/thirst ones are unnecessary (and only then because I can't think of a reasonable and uncomplicated way to model hunger and thirst without an icon). But that's just my opinion. I'd be fine with them keeping it all in the inventory if that's the path they choose to take, that wouldn't ruin immersion for me any more than it is now... and it's pretty great now. I'd just prefer if it wasn't there at all and there were other methods that I actually had to think about, rather than just flick open my inventory to see what's going on.

[Kenny Kyle 138]

a big NO!

learn the game by play the game.

you dont need icons.

im glad that dayz respects intelligence.

 

big publishers have invent the icons. so every child and granny can understand thier game. look at planetside 2.

its horrible and makes you stupid. you stop thinking.

its a crutch for the brain.

 

in dayz you can learn.

you do natural things again:

you wobble your head from left to right like a owl to figure out the distance of a target or to check out the wood in front of you.

(it works)

or the whole team stops walking to hark when one guy is hear a noise.

thats awesome. please dont destroy it.

you have just your ears and your eyes. thats why your heart is beaten in this game when you see other players.

only dead space have reach that in the past years. because no icons. only you and your senses

[pale1776 375]

As far as health goes, the best I saw was in the original Ghost Recon. It had your soldier icon, and as you were wounded he would limp more an more and turn from green to red.

[pale1776 375]

That should work until they have sensors that simulate hunger bein shot and dyin.

[enforcer1975 1111]

You forgot MOAR GUNZ...

[Sir Eglamore 8]

I personally don't like having all those indicators they added recently. They should be disabled for hardcore at least. Imho.

[Wolfguarde 108]

Use a mic or get out might seem a little harsh, but this game is at it's best when Bohemia's voice chat system is used to it's fullest. Besides, there's not time to type in a player encounter!

While I agree in principle, keep in mind that not everyone has one.

 

I'm surprised there are more people that care about difficulty than fun. It's a game guys, you aren't playing it for fun!?

 

I would like to see all HUD information including hotkey bindings restricted to the inventory. Let such things as bleeding be visible in first/third person by looking at yourself, and such things as thirst, hunger and sickness be primarily detectable by visual and audio cues. Your character's stomach starts growling when he gets hungry. He starts stumbling and fainting when he starts to starve, unless he's in danger and adrenaline has kicked in. The character starts swallowing more and breathing hoarsely when thirsty. When sick, he starts coughing and his nose runs - symptoms get progressively worse the longer he's sick. These things would all show up in the inventory screen as well, but would be possible to see/hear without needing to resort to it if you don't want to break immersion.

I risk someone turning this thread into a train wreck in even touching on perspective-related issues, but I think that this should apply to vehicles as well - as a result, you're not going to spend all your time in third person while driving/flying/sailing, as you'll have to monitor vehicle speed, fuel, and possibly heat and revs from within the vehicle. A vehicle might have a damaged fuel tank, which would lead to fuel leaking; you wouldn't know unless you're looking at the gauge regularly. A fucked engine might result in oil leaking (resulting in higher engine temperature?) or weak revs/speed. Bad wheels would cause the car to tilt - not so much as to be easily noticeable outside the car, but enough that you're going to get tired of looking at the world through a windshield that makes everything look like a crooked painting after a while.

Plenty of possibilities. I'm sure Rocket and co are creative and inventive enough to make use of this sort of incentive.

Edited February 20, 2014 by Wolfguarde

[Nicko2580 398]

While I agree in principle, keep in mind that not everyone has one.

 

 

I would like to see all HUD information including hotkey bindings restricted to the inventory. Let such things as bleeding be visible in first/third person by looking at yourself, and such things as thirst, hunger and sickness be primarily detectable by visual and audio cues. Your character's stomach starts growling when he gets hungry. He starts stumbling and fainting when he starts to starve, unless he's in danger and adrenaline has kicked in. The character starts swallowing more and breathing hoarsely when thirsty. When sick, he starts coughing and his nose runs - symptoms get progressively worse the longer he's sick. These things would all show up in the inventory screen as well, but would be possible to see/hear without needing to resort to it if you don't want to break immersion.

I risk someone turning this thread into a train wreck in even touching on perspective-related issues, but I think that this should apply to vehicles as well - as a result, you're not going to spend all your time in third person while driving/flying/sailing, as you'll have to monitor vehicle speed, fuel, and possibly heat and revs from within the vehicle. A vehicle might have a damaged fuel tank, which would lead to fuel leaking; you wouldn't know unless you're looking at the gauge regularly. A fucked engine might result in oil leaking (resulting in higher engine temperature?) or weak revs/speed. Bad wheels would cause the car to tilt - not so much as to be easily noticeable outside the car, but enough that you're going to get tired of looking at the world through a windshield that makes everything look like a crooked painting after a while.

Plenty of possibilities. I'm sure Rocket and co are creative and inventive enough to make use of this sort of incentive.

Nice post man, I pretty much agree with all of that and good ways to model hunger and thirst in there. The thing I have problems with is how you tell you've eaten or drunk enough without icons? That's the main part I have trouble with when it comes to nourishment. 

As for perspective, I intentionally didn't mention it here. I am completely against 3pp but that's a complete discussion in itself and requires it's own thread (and I believe there's already a heap of them).

[Wolfguarde 108]

Perhaps having your character make a sound of contentment after eating or drinking enough to become sufficiently full would work. Nothing over the top, just different and loud enough that you're able to hear it over whatever else might be going on, unless you're chowing down on a can of sardines in the middle of a firefight. Or your character could rub their stomach at the end of the animation, or some such. Might be a bit weird having an animation to show it, but it's the easiest way I can think of without using icons.

[Nicko2580 398]

Perhaps having your character make a sound of contentment after eating or drinking enough to become sufficiently full would work. Nothing over the top, just different and loud enough that you're able to hear it over whatever else might be going on, unless you're chowing down on a can of sardines in the middle of a firefight. Or your character could rub their stomach at the end of the animation, or some such. Might be a bit weird having an animation to show it, but it's the easiest way I can think of without using icons.

Yeah I thought about a few things like that. For simplicities sake the current energised/hydrated icons and their progressive colour changes are fine for me, I'm just hoping we don't see too much more of that type of thing. 

[blackberrygoo 1416]

Immersion all the way obviously , but don't make it extremely difficult for the developers themselves to let us know how our characters are doing . How else is "I feel healthy" supposed to be shown?

Some things need to be in text like : " I am healthy, I am stuffed , I feel energized , and if you wanna get rid of the pop up texts then fine , but they are then going to have to be shown as text in the inventory only, and would you really wanna check your inventory Just to see if you are hungry , thirsty , stuffed , energized , healthy ?

I say a balance of it as it is now is fine, I am wet(experimental branch now ) seems like it needs reworking but besides that I can see the ones I mentioned NEEDING text and the others have their animations / unconsciousness to show visually . I also thought of another one which can be animated instead of texted: "i am about to vomit" can be a gagging sound and you would know then to slow the fucc down haha .

Edit : we shouldn't over think things , this is why this half text half animation system was thought up of . even something like bleeding, checking for blood makes sense in a visual way but if you were cut bad enough in real life to bleed a fatal bleed you would know where it's coming from you wouldn't have to LOOK.

Edited February 21, 2014 by Grapefruit kush

[jfn3000 10]

Perhaps having your character make a sound of contentment after eating or drinking enough to become sufficiently full would work. Nothing over the top, just different and loud enough that you're able to hear it over whatever else might be going on, unless you're chowing down on a can of sardines in the middle of a firefight. Or your character could rub their stomach at the end of the animation, or some such. Might be a bit weird having an animation to show it, but it's the easiest way I can think of without using icons.

 

I think this is why icons have to exist at least a little.  In real life, I know if I'm full or hungry by directing my attention to my stomach.  My stomach would grumble when empty, but it doesn't do anything when I'm full (maybe bow outward a little.)  When I come across food, I do mentally check if I'm hungry or not, but it's entirely internal.  This is where an icon you have to actively check makes sense.  Coarse information, actively queried, until it becomes a pressing issue.  Then it become always obvious, like starving.

 

The flip side of this is that icons can reflect ambiguity that exists in real life.  When you go to stand up, your ankle shoots pain up your leg and you collapse, your body doesn't tell you you're ankle's broke, it just says "No."  It could also just be sprained. 

 

When it comes to discomfort and pain, the body is pretty vague, usually only expressing where and how bad.  Stomach cramps: diarrhea, food poisoning, hunger, or running too long?  You only know from context, and when it's more than one you aren't even sure which anymore.