First vs Third Person Discussion (Dslyecxi video)

[fluxley 2228]

I'm a first person only kind of guy too, it really adds to the tension and overall improves the whole experience for me.

 

But there are some flaws to first person that need to be addressed. and hopefully they already have been.

 

Peeking over/around walls, Arma 3 has the new stances which look to work great but i've not seen much more than passing comments about this for the standalone that have led me to believe we may not have the same variety of movement.

Maybe one of the guys that have played the pre alpha could comment on this.

 

Vehicles, certain vehicles have a pretty severe blind spot caused by the roof support beam which in real life you would naturally tilt your head to see around.

They could add the ability to tilt your body with the Q and E keys while in a vehicle. this would also help when piloting a heli, being able to tilt and look down would really improve things greatly.

 

Reversing, we need working mirrors, again arma 3 has this so im hopeful standalone will too.

 

And as GoldenPSP mentioned some kind of steadycam effect for bikes and Atv's, never really thought of this but i guess i just got used to the idea of these vehicles being powered by a washing machine.

 

Personally i'd want all servers to be first person only, no crosshair, no waypoints, no death messages and when you first spawn in a hand comes out the screen and slaps you in the face a few times.

Having these as optional just makes the game easier which IMO goes against the original aim of creating a brutal and unforgiving survival experience.

I doubt this will happen though so i just hope they will work to improve first person and in doing so encourage more people to play on first person only servers.

[FrostDMG 398]

I used to play only on 3p servers, but after switching to a 1p only server, I can't go back to 3p. 3p makes the game so much easier, people can camp around corners and look over fences - you are generally much safer when in 3p as you have a wider FOV too. Driving and especially flying is more challenging in 1p as you can't simply scout 360 around your aircraft as you're flying.

[m.cab 83]

I agree with Dslyecki except for one thing:

 

The driver of a car should always get 3rd person activated. Simple reason is that the mirrors dont work! In a real car you can be pretty much aware of whats going on beside and behind you because of the mirrors. Note that i am only talking about the driver.

 

EDIT: ups, just saw flux already mentioned it. (;

Edited August 21, 2013 by m.cab

[Fonebook 126]

I think it is true, that if this really is the "Anti-Game," the steps will be taken to make it the most immersive and realistic experience possible. I once made a post about how having death messages was BS since you should have to go and check your kills instead of automatically feeling more comfortable once you see the "so-and-so was killed" message. Many people argued against it for various reasons. But in the end most gamers have become reliant on artificial cues to make them more useful in a situation than they would be and they will fight hard to preserve these gimmicky abilities. They depend on them.

 

The game should be about the skill you bring to the controls, not about the gimmicks you become good at exploiting.

 

The huge increase in ArmA2 sales has already paid for DayZ. That's why they can take their time, the development has already been profitable. I think the right thing for the devs, and specifically Rocket, to do is to create a game that best embodies the tension and fear of a zombie apocalypse. If they aren't willing to make the hard decisions, like removing 3rd person, not allowing 3rd party servers to bastardize the game, removing death messages, removing cross-hairs, etc., then there is nothing special about DayZ development at all.

 

Pioneers in the video game industry are people who do more than repeat what has already been done before. They lead the industry somewhere. They don't feed us the same crap we have been feeding on for ages, they invent something new for us to digest. What we are asking for takes huge balls of steel, but that is the nature of being a pioneer, blazing a trail into the unknown.

 

Lets do the right thing devs.

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

Tear-inducing speech

Couldn't have worded it better myself.

Edited August 21, 2013 by Fraggle

[big_t 66]

 

 

Try driving any of these, especially offroad, in first person and it becomes an exercise in frustration.  Now yes even IRL the ride gets pretty bouncy.  But also IRL our bodies, eyes etc have an amazing ability to steady our view quite a bit in the midst of the bouncy ride.  But in game its much more like a fixed view.

 

If there was a way to have a bit of a "steadycam" effect when driving these vehicles, I'd be all for it.  Otherwise I find these particular ones mostly usable only in 3rd person.

 

The only other area is when backing up.  Again IRL I can shift my entire torso, bend around and get a good view out of the back of the vehicle, that simply isn't achievable in game.  But this is less of an issue than the above one and could be dealt with.

 

 

 

 

I agree it's a bit tough in 1rst person.

 

 I believe a good way to address this but still not have 3rd person omnipotent powers of vision when driving a vehicle would be to implement the "nose cam" or position the camera just at the windshield which is used as an option in racing games. Yes it is not truly authentic as far as realism but it gives much more situational awareness but still restricts the point of view.    (in real life you are not really noticing the inner controls and hands as much while driving, your eyes are concentrating more on the outside of the windshield area)

 

 

 

Also about backing up or seeing behind you in a car.  How about still using nose cam but you press shift or a hot key and you get the nose came looking backward. of course with the option of the"alt" free-look.

Edited August 21, 2013 by Big_T

[Siberian (DayZ) 527]

I'll never buy the "realism" argument.  DayZ was, is, and will always be a game to me.

I've played on 1P only servers.  The biggest difference with DayZ is you easily get stuck in doorways and other tight spots.

Didn't seem realistic to me at all.  Really bad "body awareness." 

So 3P works better for me.

 

The big advantage with 3P is for snipers on rooftops looking over parapet walls. 

Of course since DayZ isn't realistic enough to provide any well-concealed sniper nests, that can be looked at as a "realism" trade-off. 

A lesser advantage is scoping out a building before entering.  Not a big deal at all.  Leaning in to peek in 1P has a high success rate.

It's just another way to get an angle.

 

But these are well known methods used in 3P, and so are the defenses.  Caution, listening for footsteps, etc.

Everything else is basically a wash.   The vid showing one guy looking at another player over a wall fails to mention the other guy can do the same, and actually had the advantage of seeing the approach if he was on his toes.  Another wash. 

It really gets down to personal preference.  There's 1P servers out there for those who like that.

 

 

EXACTLY... ^^^ this guy gets it^^^

[mercules 1290]

When I was first introduced to DayZ I think I played it the way it was intended to be played, and not how I eventually came to play it. 

For the most part I stuck to first person perspective and worked within that because DayZ was, in my opinion at the time, supposed to be immersive, a simulation, and a survival game. The server we played on also had no crosshairs and a full day night schedule that they switched around so it was sometimes night when I was playing. Those first few weeks had me seriously enjoy the game. Back then Zombies made me nervous. I could hear them all around me but I couldn't always pinpoint their location. 

Something happened though, and I started to play in 3rd person. I think it was dealing with people who were on servers that allowed it. 3rd person became default and Zombies lost the little bit of fear they generated. I could now use 3rd person to see them around corners or over obstacles without agroing them. I could see when one ran up behind me and didn't have to look over my shoulder to make sure. It didn't matter that the mod I was playing had stances for peeking around corners because I could just see everything with 3rd person and the minimal movement of the "peek" stance didn't alter that view hardly at all so it was never used where as before I used it all the time. 

The game lost a lot for me. 

Day/Night is the same way. My friend had mostly played on a server where the admins just switched to day any time they felt like it so it never really got dark. We then played on a server and ended up with it being full night, overcast, and after the moon had set. He couldn't see a foot in front of his face. I introduced him to the beauty of weapons with flashlights, glowsticks, and most importantly, Road Flares. We had some vehicles and using them at night was much more difficult. Night pickup with a helicopter? Not so easy. With a road flare tossed out to illuminate the landing zone? Much easier, but it ALSO gave away your position in a big way as did turning on the spotlights and headlights on vehicles. It adds a lot, just like first person perspective.
 

[terrvik 2409]

Apparently this was in the description of the video. I missed it so I'm posting it here in case someone else did as well.

 

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/263501/Images/third_person_argument.png

 

 

I think it is true, that if this really is the "Anti-Game," the steps will be taken to make it the most immersive and realistic experience possible. I once made a post about how having death messages was BS since you should have to go and check your kills instead of automatically feeling more comfortable once you see the "so-and-so was killed" message. Many people argued against it for various reasons. But in the end most gamers have become reliant on artificial cues to make them more useful in a situation than they would be and they will fight hard to preserve these gimmicky abilities. They depend on them.

 

The game should be about the skill you bring to the controls, not about the gimmicks you become good at exploiting.

 

The huge increase in ArmA2 sales has already paid for DayZ. That's why they can take their time, the development has already been profitable. I think the right thing for the devs, and specifically Rocket, to do is to create a game that best embodies the tension and fear of a zombie apocalypse. If they aren't willing to make the hard decisions, like removing 3rd person, not allowing 3rd party servers to bastardize the game, removing death messages, removing cross-hairs, etc., then there is nothing special about DayZ development at all.

 

Pioneers in the video game industry are people who do more than repeat what has already been done before. They lead the industry somewhere. They don't feed us the same crap we have been feeding on for ages, they invent something new for us to digest. What we are asking for takes huge balls of steel, but that is the nature of being a pioneer, blazing a trail into the unknown.

 

Lets do the right thing devs.

 

:thumbsup: :beans:

Edited August 21, 2013 by Terrorviktor

[Heiduk 265]

If some players decide they're not happy with that then they'll need to go and find another game, trying to make a game that suits everyone never works, tough decisions need to be made at the top in order to avoid DayZ becoming yet another game that tries to please everyone to maximise sales.  In those situations, everyone loses out.

 

This 1000x. In addition to working out the technical issues I'm really hoping the team is taking some time to think about some of these design choices. Seemingly minor UI changes like enforcing a physically plausible perspective, disabling the HUD, or changing how vegetation is displayed through optics have a huge impact on how people play the game. Those choices should be made by the game's designers so that they can optimize all aspects of the game around those choices.

 

As an aside, I'm amazed how little support third person has received in this thread. Maybe it's time for me to log back on and try to find a decent server again.

[Jgut90 71]

I want it cut completely - first person or BUST

 

Play Red Orchestra 2/Rising Storm and you will know the brutality of a hardcore-first-person-only game...it is amazing

This man speaks the truth! I am currently addicted to RO and RS.

 

I will choose 1st person all the time but sadly from where I live I can't seem to find servers that are 1st person only.

 

I believe, however, the standalone should have servers that are 1st person only and the one with 3rd person also so that everyone can be happy and

enjoy the game.

 

Let's face it, some people just like playing using 3rd person but when the standalone comes out I'm hopping to the best server with 1st person only. See

you around, gentlemen.

Edited August 21, 2013 by Jgut90

[radrussian1 (DayZ) 23]

fov slider and no 3rd person. the fact that there is 3rd person in a army sim is just baffling. 

[HazZarD87 166]

fov slider and no 3rd person. the fact that there is 3rd person in a army sim is just baffling. 

It's not actually, the same reason it has crosshairs. As they allready stated back in the day with flashpoint, an FPS cannot even remotely approach the situational awareness and overall 'feel' for your surroundings that you have IRL. For instance: at 30m with an AR15 type weapon it is piss easy to just point and shoot without even looking over the sights, you might not hit every shots but pop off 3 and you're bound to hit the target, since you've got a feel for where you are pointing.

 

The crosshairs mimic that feel that the monitor takes away from you. The same goes for the dots that we used to have and 3rd person. The only reason I support the dots being removed is because you could see them trough things for some reason, it never worked properly but the idea is sound.

 

As for 3rdP letting me peak around corners and such.. well duh. Irl I'd be able to peep trough a fence crack the size of a keyhole and observe stuff. You could slightly raise your head up to look over something... and not be forced to kneel and expose lots more of yourself.

 

Simply put, these things that might seem 'gamey' are there to compensate for the real life senses that a monitor takes away from you.

Edited August 21, 2013 by HazZarD87

[Cap'n (DayZ) 1827]

/RANT/ I play 3rd person for one reason. I could play in 1st person, but I have a beef with it. ARMA 2 HAS SHITTIER HAND MODELS THAN CS 1.6! Oh, its more realistic, or "immersive". Make the hand models less shitty, make the weapon handling animations less shitty. Until they do that, hell no. I'd rather have something that is aesthetically pleasing than ugly as sin. "Oh, you're a cheating fuck using that advantage, Cap!". I play 1st person in ArmA 3. Why? BECAUSE IT ISN'T SHIT! improve the hand models, the weapon holding animations. Then I'll play 1st person. Until that happens, we need 3rd person. To me, aesthetically pleasing means immersion. Unlike most of these pigeons, I keep most my settings above the "Low" slider. So until I can look at the hands without taking a double take, I'll remain in 3rd person. Consider that before you go on your little rants, hear? /RANT/ off

 

lol, I'm serious 

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

DayZ SA isn't Arma2.  Just sayin'.

 

The player skeletons are completely different (newer than Arma 3's) and there's other improvements too so hopefully that old clunkiness won't be an issue when moving around in tight spaces.

 

I agree with you though, if it's as bad as Arma2 it'll be a problem.

Edited August 21, 2013 by Fraggle

[Cap'n (DayZ) 1827]

DayZ SA isn't Arma2.  Just sayin'.

 

The player skeletons are completely different (newer than Arma 3's) and there's other improvements too so hopefully that old clunkiness won't be an issue when moving around in tight spaces.

 

I agree with you though, if it's as bad as Arma2 it'll be a problem.

If they are almost as good as ArmA 3 or as good, I'll be pleased and fine with 1st person only. I agree that 3rd person gives some "unfair" advantages, but I can't stand to look at those awful excuses for hands. Why bohemia? WHY? EXPLAIN TO ME BOHEMIA!

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

I think the hands are far better now!  Arma 2's hands did look like a pack of sausages trying to hold a gun though.

[Cap'n (DayZ) 1827]

I think the hands are far better now!  Arma 2's hands did look like a pack of sausages trying to hold a gun though.

Yeah, they remind me a lot of ArmA 3. As long as the hands aren't inhumanly twisted and I get snagged on every corner while turning, I'll be fine with 1st person only.

[big_t 66]

It's not actually, the same reason it has crosshairs. As they allready stated back in the day with flashpoint

 

 

I don't care about operation flashpoint, that was 10 years ago and game "progresses" over time , not hold on to the way it used to be just because,, well thats the way it used to be.

 

 

I have no time for the operation flashpoint old guard talking points, you are welcome to keep rocking out on that game, I'm sure it was fun for 2001. This is dayz 2013.

[BigChef 55]

I enjoy and use both 1st and 3rd person, mostly for reasons already stated by others in this thread. Driving situations, landing choppers (not that I fly often) off road biking (my favorite way to get South to North) and I definitely use 3^rd person for those times I can’t find a vehicle and need to take a long run…1^st person blows for this. But, FP rocks for an in the game feel, it makes for a much more tense gaming experience, however becoming stuck in a doorway, not being able to peak over a fence or around a corner certainly is a drawback. Someone said something to the effect of "it makes up for the limitations of the monitor" I couldn't agree more, I believe that far too much needs to be addressed that will not be address to make this a smooth fully functional 1st person only game. I like it, I use it but far less than I once did and I also believe that removing it all together would not only decrease sales, but cause a greater dropout rate amongst players…it’s a far more difficult game to learn in 1^st person.

Someone said “they’ll just have to find another game to play” a very elitist attitude IMHO, were the game 1^st person from the start I may well have dropped out already missing on months of enjoyment (and frustration) that the game has given me, my family and friends. Perhaps instead of they’ll just have to find another game to play” we should say “they’ll just have to find another server to play on”

[Max Planck 7174]

I think the hands are far better now!  Arma 2's hands did look like a pack of sausages trying to hold a gun though.

 

*looks at hands*

 

I'm gonna cry now.

Edited August 21, 2013 by Max Planck

[Wayze 549]

Dean is alway talking about immersion and making a survival game for hardcore fans, but at the other hand he activates first person, which changes the whole game in every way. Running away from zombies without knowing how close behind you they really are is much better than being able to just see them by switching in 3rd person. You even don't have to turn around to see someone sneaking up on you. Also, the fact that you can look around corner and above walls is taking so much gameplay away. In DayZ combat is everything, it is so essential for the gameplay. But it is also the "not knowing" about where another player could be, what is happening behind the corner. It is much more immersive and realistic. The most annoying thing is that people can just camp, and I have nothing against campers, but in a third person game it changes everything. If you camp you got WAY more advantages. I go on the top of a firestation, and NOBODY is able to see me until I shot him in the face. It is just so overpowered, and I feel just save on top of that thing. I know I got the advantage, I am practacly immortal and invisible. Nobody will ever see me if I don't peek out to shoot. Also I can just hide behind a tree and nobody will see me until he actually goes around the tree. Me however, I can see him the whole time. It is changing the gameplay into a deathmatch. You don't need to interact with people, you are invisible and immortal, because you can go on top of a building and just kill everyone withreally low chances that you die.

 

Really, ask yourself. Do you play DayZ because it is such an good action shooter or because it is a really immersive game? You die, you lose everything. This is (or was) one of the key elements of DayZ, but having the third person mode is giving you so much more security, you just feel so much better than without. And please stop with the "You can't see as much as in 3rd person so it sucks!". You want to tell me that Battlefield, Call of Duty and all other FPS suck because they have no third person mode? What the hell?

And as you see your character in the inventory, there is simply no need for the 3rd person mode. The third person mode is actually just for the players who want to feel save, who want to have an easy game without tactics. It is for the campers who wait on the top of a firestation and peek out just when shooting someone.

Actually I know exactly for what people it is, it is for the backstabbing guys who are too afraid to fight face to face. They want to peek around a corner, go around the house and kill you from behind. Exactly that sort of player is loving the third person mode.

 

It is for the players who don't even get what DayZ is all about, it is about the immersion!

Edited August 21, 2013 by Wayze

[BigChef 55]

It is for the players who don't even get what DayZ is all about, it is about the immersion!

 

I thought it was about having fun???

[Fonebook 126]

It is for the players who don't even get what DayZ is all about, it is about the immersion!

 

I thought it was about having fun???

 

Arcade style games are strictly for having fun. Simulator style games are about recreating an experience in all possible aspects, including the struggle and un-fun elements. Sure there will always have to be a compromise, but 3rd person represents an unnecessary compromise which encourages people to hide behind things and never expose themselves. In the end there is no good reason to have it, other than to pander to gamers who really aren't interested in the style of game DayZ has been stated to be by Rocket himself. Furthermore there is no need to have it in vehicles, would be nice to have working mirrors, but this alone is not a good enough justification for super-human visual ability.

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

It is for the players who don't even get what DayZ is all about, it is about the immersion!

 

I thought it was about having fun???

It is!  I enjoy a challenge.  To me that's fun.

 

When I want some mindless action I play something else.