First vs Third Person Discussion (Dslyecxi video)

[RedNome 443]

Nope.

 

Nope you want everything handed to you on a plate?

 

Your loss then if the admins don't supply what you want.

[RooBurger 285]

Personally I only use it when I want to see around corners, over walls and hills, around trees, and sometimes I'll put the camera through a wall to see what is on the other side. I use it Specifically for PvP. If I'm alone on a server I use first person only.

Edited August 29, 2013 by RooBurger

[Jex 1104]

 

 

Where are all the first person players at?

 

What's so wrong about first person view, that even vast majority of first person players, would rather submit themselves to so-called cheating, than to play on servers, that completely eliminate this "cheating" by enforcing a higher difficulty level?

 

If you're exposed to a rock or a roof top, chances are you're exposed to several rocks and roof tops and when you're exposed, you're exposed and you will not detect every potential peaking head behind every potential cover. If you're moving slowly down an open street, carefully scanning every roof and window, looking for snipers, you're moving at a snails pace, at a speed where a mathematically challenged person as me have time enough to calculate the corret mildots on my fingers, slowly lead you, predict your path and send you back to the coast.

 

I'll try and address these 2 points.

 

I play dayzero on BMRF - server is full almost every night on their 1sp person server. So your assertion requires statistics to back it up.

 

As for cheating, it is, in a way but not like hacking  - does that stop me from playing on 3rd person servers, no. Why is it considered cheating, because it gives an unfair advantage and where you talk about not seeing every head? In a 3rd person server you'll see no head, no chances at all and it's not just about these 2 players either. Even if the victim doesn't see the player peaking in 1st person, that doesn't mean there aren't other players that might see him - and he knows it. See how the game dynamic suddenly changes when things become risky rather than exploiting and sitting comfortably where nobody can see you?

 

Like i said in a post above, had 1st person been the only option, the game would still be as popular and nobody would know any different. Does anyone ask BF3 or COD to be in 3rd person too? If they had that as an option in the beginning, wouldn't we have the same thing where most servers are 3rd person? But COD and BF2 are massively popular games so why isn't anyone screaming to have 3rd person? See how it's actually a none issue that if it wasn't there to begin with, nobody would care, just like they don't in COD of BF. There's no reason to keep it in, people are going to play the game - a little thing like this won't stop them if the game is awesome (and it makes the game a little more scary too).

 

So removing it will inconvenience people for a while, maybe, but keeping it gives a stupid advantage to anyone on higher ground.

[Jex 1104]

Does anyone here who votes for 3rd person play BF or COD?

[tommes 331]

There will be no teammates :D

Then force your victims by gunpoint. ^^

[RedNome 443]

Round and round we go.......

[Wayze 549]

Nope you want everything handed to you on a plate?

 

Your loss then if the admins don't supply what you want.

Yes, you are completly right. That's why I want that the admins to not have the power to decide over the view.

Edited August 29, 2013 by Wayze

[Jex 1104]

Does anyone think COD and BF should have 3rd person?

[tommes 331]

Does anyone here who votes for 3rd person play BF or COD?

Probably not. BF or CoD players would want to shoot each other and don't mind about not having TPV. This would be a anon-issue if not large portions of the DayZ players would recruit from the PvE camp. They complain about KoS mentality, lack of skill trees and other role playing mechanics they miss.

[TheDesigner 1197]

Since no one can counter my arguments and just blabber about how TPV makes the game more dangerous, I think my argument is proven.

(Gun play, effective strategies, and suppression will be on par with games like COD, until either removed or you play on FPV servers only.)

I don't think we should remove TPV entirely, but it should be a rare server. It doesn't mix well with what DayZ is trying to be, therefore it degrades gameplay. I hope Rocket starts off the SA with many FPV servers. If not, I would of wasted my money. It'll be something I look in to before buying the SA.

(Also, a tip, if you're tired of massive KOS, try FPV servers. People generally don't camp cities because they're dangerous when you can't use your magic camera to peek around corners. Your experience in DayZ will improve tenfold)

[dallas 5195]

Unfortunately the Real Virtuality engine is designed to allow players to enjoy battlefield simulation both in first and third person view.

 

This unfortunately means that players expect this and it also means that because the game is designed to be playable in both view modes, it's not 100% perfect in first person or 100% perfect in third person. Fortunately the game is also designed, so that an admin at any time can enforce his own personal preferences on his server.

 

Just because you're new to the engine, doesn't mean that third person view is.

 

I hope Rocket will come to the same conclusion as he did with humanity, while it's not perfect, it's impossible to remove it and resources are better spent elsewhere.

Edited August 29, 2013 by Dallas

[Siberian (DayZ) 527]

:)

 

I don't care if it caters to a large audience or not as long as it is the best game it can be. If alienating part of the audience makes for a better quallity experience then go for it.

so will you be mailing a cheque off to BI for all those lost sales ??

 

 

since you clearly dont care if the dev. costs get recouped or not.

[Siberian (DayZ) 527]

Probably not. BF or CoD players would want to shoot each other and don't mind about not having TPV. This would be a anon-issue if not large portions of the DayZ players would recruit from the PvE camp. They complain about KoS mentality, lack of skill trees and other role playing mechanics they miss.

exactly, this is at the core of the matter.

 

FPS players cant accept that Dayz is more then just a KoS fest.

 

the thought that people enjoy different things inside the game is beyond them..

[Ken Bean 175]

Okay, I'm officially done with this thread for today. I'll be back when there is some real discussions to be had.

 

 

You also could take me serious.

 

Point is, if you see someone by this "exploit", you don't need to engage. I very often met people which I didn't engage.

 

What I was talking about that a survivor who uses the "exploit" could give away his position.

 

To get a bit what I mean, have a look at this video.

 

Yes, right, he uses the direct communication to play the sounds. So the other survivor cant detect his position.

 

But sth similar could also be possible / managed by the sound engine.

 

Just forget the nature of the sounds he uses.

 

 

Arma 3 btw has a function which goes very in that direction. A soldier starts to couch while moving, making certain sounds.

 

The key point is that in a certain radius, if the 1st person line of view is blocked and someone gets a line of sight, in 3rd person, the player who gets the 3rd-person-los, will reveal his presence.

 

Which allerts the other player and in the effect will reduce the abusive nature of the "exploit".

 

I really thought in regards of the SA, where eating human flash is confirmed, a cannibal skin could be introduced, with even - maybe based on sanity - soliloquises. Why the heck not?

 

 

This could be a more elegant solution than just plain removing or sabotaging a key element of the game.

 

In my eyes this is a valid proposal which can be at least discussed. But I'm afraid that most 1st person fanatics wont even dare to try sth else than making 3rd person unplayable.

Edited August 29, 2013 by Ken Bean

[RedNome 443]

Yes, you are completly right. That's why I want that the admins to not have the power to decide over the view.

 

So you expect admins, out of their own pocket, to pay for servers for you to play on and have zero power in how they are set up at all?

 

What a selfish and arrogant view point.

Edited August 29, 2013 by RedNome

[Heiduk 265]

I don't need to discuss authenticity, immersion or any of the other red herrings that keep steering this topic conveniently away from this glaring issue.

I have to respectfully disagree, I think authenticity is the very core of this issue and part of the reason there is so much disconnect in this discussion. Although there are clearly plenty of shades of gray I think people are basically falling in to two groups: Those (including myself) who would prefer DayZ to be more of a simulation and those who are more interested in a game. Those are both valid viewpoints but successfully achieving either does require different design decisions.

 

The simulation vs. game distinction is also part of the reason I'm a little puzzled by rocket's position on this issue. Although to my knowledge he has never called it a simulation he has made a big deal about designing DayZ in such a way that real-world skills transfer in to the game. Yet 3rd person, in its current form, pretty much nullifies most standard infantry tactics so people who have those skills can't transfer them in to the game. As noted numerous times in this thread there are tactics that can mitigate the impact of 3rd person, however, by in large they are game tactics, not tactics rooted in the real-world. I'm not arguing DayZ should be an infantry simulator, ARMA does that quite nicely, but I do find it a bit strange that in a game with guns where the designer is going to the extent of giving players a blood type (has any other game ever done that?) an entire skill set is just being discarded.

 

 

With those two features implemented, upon starting a new character, you get to choose between two perspective modes:

 

- Third Person Prerogative

- First Person Prerogative

 

This is one of the most thoroughly thought out suggestions in this thread, beans for you.

 

I ment the 1stp view people and weather you are aware of it or not you are definatly coming across as in that camp .

 

Join us SmashT, your comrades have already forsaken you. 1st person is the one true path, brother. We will forgive your past sins and wicked ways if only you repent and swear undieing loyalty to the 1st view, the only True view.

[Jex 1104]

For me, running around in FP gives me a horrible headache after about 10 minutes.

 

Press numpad - (minus) and it should help some - you need to double-tap it to make it stick but it doesn't stick in vehicles. It's the FOV that causes it, it's too narrow for some people but can be alleviated and of course turning of motion blur and headbob (2 ridiculous options that really shouldn't be there unless you want your character to be on smack and 2 liters of vodka) will help too.

[mercules 1290]

Thats not bad, maybe with a slider to roll in and out of FPV? I wonder if it might look a little confusing in Third though if the cam is directly behind, we don't want to obscure anything or make it too difficult to see slight distant movement etc. looking over walls and around corners is probably the biggest issue with TPV at the moment, which this would address. Can we address these issues with an offset cam?

 

Yeah, and offset cam might be better. I guess I was considering more the comments that TPV gives people a better feel for where their character is in relation to doorways, objects, and such and thought being directly behind would meet that need better. I could see a person who bumps into things in FPV also bumping into things on the "off" side of their body where the offset cam isn't.  Also an offset cam that low can obscure part of your vision and be taken advantage of by others. "Camera is on the right shoulder so always approach from the left if you can, they have a blindspot to the left."

 

yes cuz nothing says success then a game built for 6 people that costs millions to produce..

 

make no mistake SA is expected to sell huge, this isnt the mod were talking about anymore, that was free.

 

I believe the statement was that a soft launch of fewer players might actually be a good thing. Also, notice there are people who play on 3rd person servers simply because there is a population on 3rd person servers or in my case because they have friends who like their TPV comfort zone and they would rather play with their friends that play FPV alone. 

 

I agree 1st person view is "more realistic" than 3rd person but dayZ is not all about realistic .

cheers

 

Authentic means something that is "not false" or in other words "real".  I believe DayZ was originally advertised as an "authentic vision of a zombie apocalypse".  We could also look at it as a simulation which is a system that tries to recreate something in another fashion. In this case since none of us can(or probably wants to) be involved in a zombie apocalypse this game simulations in a realistic fashion so we can feel what it would be like to be in that crisis. We are simulating reality with one little tweak, there are infected. DayZ is all about being authentic and thus realisitic.

 

DayZ's primary selling feature is the authentic experience of survival and the emotions, such as: Fear, greed, paranoia, desperation, which you can experience in both first and third person.

 

I disagree. I feel much less fear in third person. 1. In TPV that guy(gal) on the screen is in terrible danger. 2. I can see some zombies over the wall and direct him(her) to wander the other direction when they would have blindly walked right into those zombies without me being their guardian angle and looking over the wall for them. 3. In FPV I don't think about the avatar, I look out and see the zombies and terrain from the perspective of a person IN that situation and make mistakes like looking around a corner into the face of a zombie I had thought was down further based on the sounds I heard. 

 

 people like both ways stop messing with shit for minorities which will effect the masses. you dont cater for minorites in business.

 

 

Actually there are some VERY good businesses that cater to "minorites". Okay, admit Walmart is a huge retailer that makes tons of money(usually through exploiting their workforce, but I digress) and offers up a huge variety of items in their stores. The issue is they only have #10 screws and only in packages of 20. When you need 2 #7 screws for a project you don't go to Walmart, you go to the corner hardware store which could try and cater to the masses and sell t-shirts, DVDs, dishes, shoes, cans of beans, and more. However they make their money by offering what walmart doesn't because they can't compete with walmart on the variety they focus and continue to make money by selling all the things walmart can't because of its generalness. It is a niche store. So is the cigar shop which has focussed on a population that smokes cigars. Walmart can't compete with them when it comes to cigars.

Games are the same way. Why compete with WoW and CoD when you can create something that offers an experiance those others don't? Sure they will draw in masses of people but you can build a loyal following who will continue to buy and convert people by building a game that DOESN'T cater to the, "This isn't like CoD, make it more like CoD." crowd. I find some irony that FPV people keep getting compared to the CoD crowds since I think it is the opposite. Remove TPV and you lose some of those people who want to turn it into a KoS Sniper Fest where they can camp a rooftop in safety and shoot people who's backs are turned. 

 

(Also, a tip, if you're tired of massive KOS, try FPV servers. People generally don't camp cities because they're dangerous when you can't use your magic camera to peek around corners. Your experience in DayZ will improve tenfold)

 

I just wanted to add that it isn't always the PLAYERS adding the danger to camping cities on FPV servers. The fact that you can't see Zombies around walls and over corners makes them more difficult to avoid and zombie agro gives away your position, not to mention they could actually kill you themselves either with an infection, broken bone, being knocked unconscious, and such.

[Jex 1104]

so will you be mailing a cheque off to BI for all those lost sales ??

 

 

since you clearly dont care if the dev. costs get recouped or not.

 

But that won't happen. Why would you not buy a game just because you can't use 3rd person? That's just ridiculous - talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.

[mercules 1290]

exactly, this is at the core of the matter.

 

FPS players cant accept that Dayz is more then just a KoS fest.

 

the thought that people enjoy different things inside the game is beyond them..

 

Um? WHAT? I HATE KoS. FPV discourages KoS to some extent without penalizing it. Let me explain my logic in this. 

TPV lets me quickly loot a city or area. I can avoid most if not all the zeds easily by looking over and around things. I can check a full building from a single doorway without exposing myself to view or having to swing far one way or the other out in the open. I can "gear up" on a TPV server fairly quickly. Zombies barely slow me down. On a FPV server I tend to sweep more carefully and move more carefully because I can't get a quick overview with a single camera sweep. 

Once geared up... what is there to do for most people? Well, a lot of them like to go mess with others once they are bored shooting zombies and finding good gear. Now bear in mind, EVERY time you die that gear up process is likely done again and if you can do it very quickly well, then you are off looking for something to do like PvP where as if it takes a bit long in FPV then you are pushing back that PvP period each time they die. 

I believe TPV making the game so simple is what is creating the boredom that leads to sniping and other PvP activities. It is not the sole cause, but I think it contributes. 

 

 

so will you be mailing a cheque off to BI for all those lost sales ??

 

 

since you clearly dont care if the dev. costs get recouped or not.

 

They will make money even if they pulled TPV completely. They have a unique property here, that will appeal to certain people and will grow if they don't water it down to much and make it just another "First Person Shooter... with zombies." or "Mass Effect... with zombies"

Edited August 29, 2013 by Mercules

[Ken Bean 175]

Um? WHAT? I HATE KoS. FPV discourages KoS to some extent without penalizing it. Let me explain my logic in this. 

TPV lets me quickly loot a city or area. I can avoid most if not all the zeds easily by looking over and around things. I can check a full building from a single doorway without exposing myself to view or having to swing far one way or the other out in the open. I can "gear up" on a TPV server fairly quickly. Zombies barely slow me down. On a FPV server I tend to sweep more carefully and move more carefully because I can't get a quick overview with a single camera sweep. 

Once geared up... what is there to do for most people? Well, a lot of them like to go mess with others once they are bored shooting zombies and finding good gear. Now bear in mind, EVERY time you die that gear up process is likely done again and if you can do it very quickly well, then you are off looking for something to do like PvP where as if it takes a bit long in FPV then you are pushing back that PvP period each time they die. 

I believe TPV making the game so simple is what is creating the boredom that leads to sniping and other PvP activities. It is not the sole cause, but I think it contributes. 

 

 

 

They will make money even if they pulled TPV completely. They have a unique property here, that will appeal to certain people and will grow if they don't water it down to much and make it just another "First Person Shooter... with zombies." or "Mass Effect... with zombies"

 

You explained your logic well but under bottom line I cant imagine how a first person shooter like view could reduce the KoS problem. Even more since fighting in 1st person is way more accurate.

 

I guess the KoS problem is either caused by the 1st person shooter like nature of the game (attrackts those player) or by some inherit game mechanics, like too rare loot.

 

Maybe its a mixture or other things that add to the problem, like being bored and lack of other tasks to do.

 

The theory that 3rd person causes or motivates / encourages kills on sight I'd call very hazy and not really backed up or grounded.

Edited August 29, 2013 by Ken Bean

[mercules 1290]

You explained your logic well but under bottom line I cant imagine how a first person shooter like view could reduce the KoS problem. Even more since fighting in 1st person is way more accurate.

 

I guess the KoS problem is either caused by the 1st person shooter like nature of the game (attrackts those player) or by some inherit game mechanics, like too rare loot.

 

Maybe its a mixture or other things that add to the problem, like being bored and lack of other tasks to do.

 

The theory that 3rd person causes or motivates / encourages kills on sight I'd call very hazy and not really backed up or grounded.

 

While I think some people just enjoy finding and killing people in the game or doing actions like "griefing" them I believe that perfectly reasonable people who otherwise wouldn't go hunting for people fall into that behaviour when they have done everything else. Lets face it. AI can only be so good. Eventually you figure out how to deal with zombies and they become easier and you desire more of a challenge. Some people decide they want to fix up a vehicle and see if they can find a good place to hide it. Others go looking for some particular piece of gear. Then eventually those tasks are completed too or they don't want to do those sort of things so they look for challenge. 

The most challenging thing in most games is facing off against another player. So they go looking for PvP. With that attitude, that you are going to go find someone and shoot them, you are already set to KoS. When people get KoS too often they too move in that direction. 

So if boredom is a major cause of KoS, and I think it is. Then how can we avoid boredom. The obvious thing is give the players more to do like base building, customizing weapons, and such. The SA goes a step further and makes it possible you will ruin the gear you are trying to take off a person when you shoot them, but that obviously doesn't matter to the person who is bored and all geared up already. 

So now you have to slow down the acquisition of gear. The longer that task takes the longer it takes to get to the bored state where you will shoot someone just to do it. In SA they are making looting take a bit longer. No more piles you can run past and know you want or don't want. There are vehicle doors to open, cupboards, and under the bed to check.  That will help. 

However, TPV makes it so easy for me to avoid zombies I can simply zig zag through town and loot at will. It makes the game easier for me. That leads me to the boredom route quicker and leaves less gap between new spawn and "I have everything I need... now what?" I think the SA will be doing other things to combat that already, but removing the aspects of 3rd person that make it into "easy mode" for avoiding danger would be yet another tool to combat boredom from having everything you need. 

 

[Heiduk 265]

You explained your logic well but under bottom line I cant imagine how a first person shooter like view could reduce the KoS problem. Even more since fighting in 1st person is way more accurate.

 

Logistics. In order to fight effectively you need to have logistical support, in DayZ that means looting. In 1st person it takes longer to get past the point of subsistence survival to a point where you are fully equipped and looking for something else to do. Even though not everyone will seek out combat once equipped a significant portion will. Therefore, the greater the portion of an average life that is spent equipped the greater the amount of killing.

Note that this calculus only really effects sport killing. I don't think it will really effect the rate of murders because the other player has something I want, although I'm not sure that is as much of a problem.

[terrvik 2409]

You also could take me serious.

 

That wasn't aimed at you specifically. :)

I take everyone in this thread seriously.

 

EDIT: I will take a break from it though. :P

 

 

so will you be mailing a cheque off to BI for all those lost sales ??

 

 

since you clearly dont care if the dev. costs get recouped or not.

 

Why would I do that? Team Rocket has stated multiple times that they don't need that many sales to break even. Why maximize profit when you care more about how good the game turns out? There are many other things that could make DayZ even more accessable to the more casual market, but no one disagrees that implementing those things is a bad idea? Even though it probably would make BI more money? Everyone complains about EA when they try to get the most money out of the consumer, then some people complain when a dev team aren't trying to do the same. Whatupwiththat?

Edited August 29, 2013 by Terrorviktor

[Ken Bean 175]

While I think some people just enjoy finding and killing people in the game or doing actions like "griefing" them I believe that perfectly reasonable people who otherwise wouldn't go hunting for people fall into that behaviour when they have done everything else. Lets face it. AI can only be so good. Eventually you figure out how to deal with zombies and they become easier and you desire more of a challenge. Some people decide they want to fix up a vehicle and see if they can find a good place to hide it. Others go looking for some particular piece of gear. Then eventually those tasks are completed too or they don't want to do those sort of things so they look for challenge. 

The most challenging thing in most games is facing off against another player. So they go looking for PvP. With that attitude, that you are going to go find someone and shoot them, you are already set to KoS. When people get KoS too often they too move in that direction. 

So if boredom is a major cause of KoS, and I think it is. Then how can we avoid boredom. The obvious thing is give the players more to do like base building, customizing weapons, and such. The SA goes a step further and makes it possible you will ruin the gear you are trying to take off a person when you shoot them, but that obviously doesn't matter to the person who is bored and all geared up already. 

So now you have to slow down the acquisition of gear. The longer that task takes the longer it takes to get to the bored state where you will shoot someone just to do it. In SA they are making looting take a bit longer. No more piles you can run past and know you want or don't want. There are vehicle doors to open, cupboards, and under the bed to check.  That will help. 

However, TPV makes it so easy for me to avoid zombies I can simply zig zag through town and loot at will. It makes the game easier for me. That leads me to the boredom route quicker and leaves less gap between new spawn and "I have everything I need... now what?" I think the SA will be doing other things to combat that already, but removing the aspects of 3rd person that make it into "easy mode" for avoiding danger would be yet another tool to combat boredom from having everything you need. 

 

To the red part. You know that the last situation was that loads of player complained that they got infected? Getting infected usually only happens if you eat raw flesh, drink unboiled water, getting in contact with another survivor who is infected and, last but not least, getting hit by an infective zed.

 

So yeah, Zeds are not "no match", at least currently. Wich is good, but not the 1st or 3rd persons fault.

 

Logistics. In order to fight effectively you need to have logistical support, in DayZ that means looting. In 1st person it takes longer to get past the point of subsistence survival to a point where you are fully equipped and looking for something else to do. Even though not everyone will seek out combat once equipped a significant portion will. Therefore, the greater the portion of an average life that is spent equipped the greater the amount of killing.

Note that this calculus only really effects sport killing. I don't think it will really effect the rate of murders because the other player has something I want, although I'm not sure that is as much of a problem.

Another doubtful theory. I think the view has no impact on the loot piles. And of cause, you may have a longer life, if you can mange to control your character better in 3rd person. Tats not the 3rd persons fault. Believe it: 1st person is flawed. I tried myself and can confirm 1st person handles very strange.

 

 

 

That wasn't aimed at you specifically. :)

I take everyone in this thread seriously.

 

I see. And I somertimes get sth wrong. No problem. :)

Edited August 29, 2013 by Ken Bean