Third person vs First person view

[enforcer1975 1111]

I play 3rd person so I can look at my cool character, the gear, stuff like that. If 3rdp is taken out in the SA I won't buy it, I dislike games where I can't see what my character is doing

So you haven't played a lot of games?

[rocky46 16]

people prone in grass are still abusing the same mechanic. they remain low profile, while at the same time can clearly see everything around them.

blurring wouldn't do the trick imo - the point is, with 3rdp you can spot people. and with blur you can still spot movement and guesstimate their location.

3rdp needs to be limited to your actual FOV, or be removed.

nobody is "abusing" any mechanic its part of the game and part of arma 2 as well, goddamn these realism junkies everyone can look around corners and everyone has the same advantage so your're equally matched, so stop complaining and putting a negative spin on it.

[rocky46 16]

Azrail']

3rdp needs to be limited to your actual FOV, or be removed.

you character would appear to move forwards when switching to 3rd person, pretty dumb!

the 3rd person mechanic has been in arma 2 since forever why complain now? its part of the game and here's the most important point..

HARDLY ANYONE PLAYS FIRST PERSON ONLY SERVERS!!

[brzator47@gmail.com 524]

nobody is "abusing" any mechanic its part of the game and part of arma 2 as well, goddamn these realism junkies everyone can look around corners and everyone has the same advantage so your're equally matched, so stop complaining and putting a negative spin on it.

We should all start with jet packs, screw realism and since everybody has one, no one is at a disadvantage, we're all equally matched and it won't affect firefight mechanics, right? Third person view has been "part of the game" since OFP, I don't see what does that have to do with anything, I've always played on servers with it disabled.

Good post Wep0n. Goes to show how hard is it to come up with a compromise that solves the biggest issue with 3DP view - peeking around corners and seeing everything while in cover. Especially since every fix involves either blurring certain parts of the screen or narrowing the FOV, both of which would cause far more motion sickness problems than the narrower FOV that comes with the first person view, which is adjustable anyway.

[WiFiN 55]

here are some things ive gathered so far.

Nice post, man! Can I incorporate some of it into the OP? That way people will definately see it.

[Wep0n 532]

Nice post, man! Can I incorporate some of it into the OP? That way people will definately see it.

i am more than pleased that you find it useful!

sure go ahead, the more this could help to solve the problem, the better :D

nobody is "abusing" any mechanic its part of the game and part of arma 2 as well, goddamn these realism junkies everyone can look around corners and everyone has the same advantage so your're equally matched, so stop complaining and putting a negative spin on it.

Well the reason i sometimes go to first person servers is when i get frustrated that i just got killed by someone who was impossible to spot. not because he was a well hidden sniper, but because he was moving the camera to see where i am, whitout his character actually facing me.

even though i love third person for many reasons, this exploit just has the potential to kill it for me.

it is a huge unfairness towards the player who is playing the game normally vs. the guy who just lies on top of a roof and kills the regular player who had NO CHANCHE to do anything against it.

One of the reasons why DayZ is so brilliant is its authenticity and realism. Third person exploit can hugely affect that authenticity, and is infact nothing other than meta gaming.

let me ask one simple question: if you add wallhack to counterstrike, and make it the same for everyone, would people still even bother playing that game? the answer is no, because it ruins the fun and makes the game something completly different.

DayZ should not be about using exploits to kill people, but to use his own wits to overcome a problem. if you manage to find a ghillie suit and a sniper rifle by hard work which took hours, and you decide to kill a guy who doesnt notice you, you earned it, because you had to work hard for it.

if you decide to sneak behind a guy and kill him with your hatchet, you earned it, because the other guy did not pay any attention, or you was just clever enough.

if you kill a guy thanks to an exploit, you did NOT earn it, and it did NOT make you more aware or intelligent than the player you just killed.

Edited January 11, 2013 by Wep0n

[enforcer1975 1111]

We should all start with jet packs, screw realism and since everybody has one, no one is at a disadvantage, we're all equally matched and it won't affect firefight mechanics, right? Third person view has been "part of the game" since OFP, I don't see what does that have to do with anything, I've always played on servers with it disabled.

Good post Wep0n. Goes to show how hard is it to come up with a compromise that solves the biggest issue with 3DP view - peeking around corners and seeing everything while in cover. Especially since every fix involves either blurring certain parts of the screen or narrowing the FOV, both of which would cause far more motion sickness problems than the narrower FOV that comes with the first person view, which is adjustable anyway.

FOV is the same in either view, you just think it's different because your camera is 5m behind you and of course you see more because the difference gives you more width. If the camera would be 1m behind you you would still have the same narrow fov as before. You could also say if the camera was 20 behind you you would see a lot more but it would still be the same fov as in 1st person.

You still don't get what kind of advantage you have over someone who doesn't have the benefit of peeking from behind a wall don't you?

[terrvik 2409]

Remove first person view as well. SPV is the new thing.

[veristaya 71]

I think Sims is the game you are looking for, not DayZ... http://www.mobygames...r-creations.jpg

Yeah, totally same genre. I hate the Sims

So you haven't played a lot of games?

There are enough games where i can actually see my character. But i guess you are trying to say i'm not cool because i don't play cod, cs and that sht?

Also, I DO play FPS, for example Left4Dead, l4d2^, some others ... I just like it better if I can see what my char is doing

Edited January 11, 2013 by IOnlyCampMyFireplace

[enforcer1975 1111]

Did you already complaing in those forums that you want 3rd person?

[Lady Kyrah 1110]

Just render 3rd person view from the object occlusion data of the 1st person view frustum :D

Too bad for 3rd person fans, it would look extremely bad :)

[St. Jimmy 1631]

Woo! Thanks OP for the quote :)

[ImageCtrl 719]

Just render 3rd person view from the object occlusion data of the 1st person view frustum :D

Too bad for 3rd person fans, it would look extremely bad :)

Yes.. :P

Render full map and make all players, zombies, loot, tents, cars, helicopters invisible if not seen in the 1st person view.

I do not know if that would be possible with the engine.

[dallas 5195]

How about 1st players start congregating on 1st person servers, fill up their own damn servers and stop trying to change 3rd person.

[dadeadduck 0]

Personally speaking I generally don't play First Person Shooters or Floaty Camera Gun as I like to call it. I don't find them more realistic, just a PITA.

Cheap first person effects like having a gun or weird floating arms/aimed guns around the bottom of the screen is not realistic in anyway. It just how FCG have been done and IMHO, they really need an overhaul. Always shooting directly at the middle of the screen hammers home the fact you are just floating a camera around, plus you get people that actually tape their sights to their screen (despite most huds *realistically* displaying some weird floating green object (like a camera) anyway).

DayZ isn't a Floaty Camera Gun game, if it was it would have been locked down as such. I wouldn't have played DayZ had it just been another Floaty Camera Gun game, luckily its not.

Edited January 11, 2013 by dadeadduck

[brzator47@gmail.com 524]

FOV is the same in either view, you just think it's different because your camera is 5m behind you and of course you see more because the difference gives you more width. If the camera would be 1m behind you you would still have the same narrow fov as before. You could also say if the camera was 20 behind you you would see a lot more but it would still be the same fov as in 1st person.

You still don't get what kind of advantage you have over someone who doesn't have the benefit of peeking from behind a wall don't you?

Technically you're correct in that zoom and fov are not the same thing. You get to see more to the sides when switching to third person view because the camera moves back then. Please explain how I don't get what kind of advantage you have over someone who doesn't have the benefit of peeking from behind a wall. I've been playing this game since OFP, I'm perfectly aware of all third person vs first person advantages and disadvantages.

DayZ isn't a Floaty Camera Gun game, if it was it would have been locked down as such. I wouldn't have played DayZ had it just been another Floaty Camera Gun game, luckily its not.

That's funny because ARMA does in fact handle first person view differently to other shooters and first person view isn't just a floating camera with hands and a weapon attached to it.

[Wep0n 532]

totally agree with Rista

Render full map and make all players, zombies, loot, tents, cars, helicopters invisible if not seen in the 1st person view.

I do not know if that would be possible with the engine.

Well explain me please how this should look like.

imagine walking in third person, and suddenly someting pops on your screen from nowhere, infront of you, just because this would not have been possible to see in first person. horrible idea!

if you see the world in third person, then you should also see everything which is placed on an area visible on your screen!

if you do not want people to spot things, then do it that way that they are not able to see the area at all, instead of wondering how the heck something just spawned infront of them whitout being there before.

How about 1st players start congregating on 1st person servers, fill up their own damn servers and stop trying to change 3rd person.

please specify your opinion.

does that imply that you are happy how third person works currently?

with what changes to third person do you disagree? are you happy with the third person mode which is capable to do the "exploit" we talk about?

Edited January 11, 2013 by Wep0n

[chris_heyward 47]

The only way I can see third person working is this (ignore the clothing. I opened up Armoury to better illustrate what I mean and getting a screenie refused to work in full screen):

1). You are close to a wall of a building moving right (wall on left)... - The camera turns automatically so that you cannot see much of the wall on your left and more of the open space to the right thus removing the ability to use it to peek around. You still have the ability to swivel the camera around to see behind you but the same principles are in order. The camera basically stops your cross-hair (if any) on the edge of the wall/corner as this is all the first person view can see.

2). You are running along a fence and the camera lowers to a point where you cannot get a view of what is on the other side. See image below.

3). You are lying in the grass and the camera moves to a position like the one above and stops you seeing any more than what you would during 1st person view. See image below:

The bottom two can easily be achieved by locking the camera so you cannot move it downwards to get an eagles view. The only camera movements that are allowed are left, right and the ability to look above you into the sky. Hell, to make it more realistic, you could just remove the cross-hairs in 3rd person view. This will make people actually use the scope/iron sight and if the FOV is correct, make them get used to 1st person view. Have 3rd person view similar to firing from the waist (accuracy drops to where you hit everything but your target... :P)

The only reason people are complaining about this is that fact they haven't changed their FOV and/or removed the head bobbing effect from the main menu

[ImageCtrl 719]

Well explain me please how this should look like.

imagine walking in third person, and suddenly someting pops on your screen from nowhere, infront of you, just because this would not have been possible to see in first person. horrible idea!

if you see the world in third person, then you should also see everything which is placed on an area visible on your screen!

if you do not want people to spot things, then do it that way that they are not able to see the area at all, instead of wondering how the heck something just spawned infront of them whitout being there before.

You are right. :thumbsup:

I can´t open your spoilers here... http://dayzmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/112418-possible-fix-for-third-person/page__st__80#entry1106190 :(

Edited January 11, 2013 by NoCheats

[Wep0n 532]

very good post be4st...

totally forgot that there are third person crosshairs... i always played on servers whith crosshairs disabled, feels alot better and realistic ^^

I can´t open your spoilers here... http://dayzmod.com/f...80#entry1106190 :(

oh crap... can i fix this somehow?

is this a common issue or just the problem of one person?

[Grodenn 53]

It seems to me like there are plenty of FP players and that there should be enough people to fill 2-3 servers, blame the community for not playing FP servers, not the game.

Well the problem is that people that want to play on FP servers tend to want a more hardcore experience, which means that they will never join a server that isn't nearly full already. But the FP servers lack people so hardcore players wont join because the server lacks people and it all goes around in a circle again... Personally I wouldn't join a server that has less than 35+ players on and preferably 50+ total spots. On top of that the server NEEDS to have a good ping (20-30 max), and when you filter for these type of servers you will almost never ever see a FP server.

How ever I think OP got some interesting ideas on how to make a compromise, because I really couldn't care less if people are running around in 3dpv if they do not actually get an advantage for doing so.

Edited January 12, 2013 by Grodenn

[rocky46 16]

We should all start with jet packs, screw realism and since everybody has one, no one is at a disadvantage, we're all equally matched and it won't affect firefight mechanics, right? Third person view has been "part of the game" since OFP, I don't see what does that have to do with anything, I've always played on servers with it disabled.

Good post Wep0n. Goes to show how hard is it to come up with a compromise that solves the biggest issue with 3DP view - peeking around corners and seeing everything while in cover. Especially since every fix involves either blurring certain parts of the screen or narrowing the FOV, both of which would cause far more motion sickness problems than the narrower FOV that comes with the first person view, which is adjustable anyway.

who said anything about jetpacks? that's obviously a dumb exaggerated idea, but third person has been part of arma 2 from day one, why suddenly do we get complaints when it comes to dayz? its part of the game and engine mechanics, you always play on first person servers fair enough but you seem to be a minority, realism isn't necessarily fun but can be if its applied in the right ways and it seems most players (like me) think its a bad idea to nerf or get rid of 3rd person mechanics.

[brzator47@gmail.com 524]

who said anything about jetpacks? that's obviously a dumb exaggerated idea, but third person has been part of arma 2 from day one, why suddenly do we get complaints when it comes to dayz? its part of the game and engine mechanics, you always play on first person servers fair enough but you seem to be a minority, realism isn't necessarily fun but can be if its applied in the right ways and it seems most players (like me) think its a bad idea to nerf or get rid of 3rd person mechanics.

What I was getting at is, third person being in ARMA (or OFP for that matter) from day one has nothing to do with anything. Did you play ARMA before DayZ mod came out? You think 99.9% ARMA servers had third person enabled as is the case now with DayZ? Your suggestion that nobody is abusing anything is laughable really. Like I said, watch almost any video on youtube and you'll see the exact opposite is true. Third person view is abused to hell. Everyone is peeking around corners without being seen. I do it as well when I play on third person enabled servers, I would be stupid not to. Just because we all do it doesn't mean nothing is wrong with it.

[Roark92 90]

i totally get that people want to be able to see their character. i really like being able to see my character running around and stuff, it just is more interesting to watch than FPV. This will be especially true in SA with all the new clothing.

but this is the STANDALONE we are talking about!! we are not limited to what we currently know to be our options within the mod! for example, in the mod if we remove 3dp then yes, you will never see your character. but how can we know this is true for the standalone? im certain it is not true in fact.

there are a number of solutions that no one is realizing because you are all still living under the limitations of the mod.

for example the inventory screen can display a 3D model of your character, rotatable.

hell maybe the world can have a hell of a lot more reflections, off water and glass. mirrors perhaps?

also no one has considered the possibility of a cinematic camera. i like third person for when im running around and not engaged in anything. a cinematic camera offers the view and style of 3DP, without any of the control. so in essence you see your character running, but you dont necessarily control the angle you view your character at. im thinking something like a GTA cinematic camera when you are driving.

and yes if anyone has used the cin. camera in GTA you know that you crash into a wall after like 5 seconds haha. so to remedy that, why not put a small picture-in-picture window, that is in first person so you can still see where you are running and whats in front of you.

I actually think something like that (that removes control but keeps the look) will settle it for a LOT of third person advocates, while removing the exploits mostly. i suppose technically the cin. cam would still let you see things you shouldnt, but it would be unpredictable and unreliable, so naturally people will not rely on it as a combat tool.

Now... if SOMETHING like that does NOT appease or interest the 3dp advocate, then they simply want to be able to keep abusing the exploits associated with 3dp, likely because they fear the life they have built for themselves up on the rooftops with their sniper rifle will be jeopardized... in which case you should be offered no quarter and simply executed for your lack of reasonable argument and your participation in the sabotage of this game.

all i know is that with no 3dp available tactics and maneuvers will flourish. groups that are organized and disciplined will triumph over those who arent. that is how it should be. how can anyone in their right mind say otherwise?

[com1 10]

no