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chambersenator

Tent Render Distance can get you killed. I have some questions.

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Note to mods: I'm posting this here rather than the bugtracker as it's not really a bug to be reported, it's working as it's currently designed, but with unintended consequences. Also, as this post doesn't contain a suggested solution, but is for discussion of possible options, this seemed the logical place to do this.
 

The render distance for tents has a problem. As I understand it, if someone is beyond the view distance of a tent, it's invisible to them, allowing them to see and shoot anyone inside or behind the tent that they obviously shouldn't be able to see.

The obvious solution would be to increase that render distance value, but I've been around ArmA and DayZ more than long enough to know that 99% of the time it's never that simple. If it were, it would have been set to match player view distance from the start. This distance was chosen for a specific reason. I would assume the reason it's set so low is related to the lag we often encounter when multiple tents and barrels are nearby. It's a symptom of a larger issue, and this is a way to minimize its effects.

If that's true, the current setting is a reasonable temporary solution - frustrating a times, but reasonable.
 

  • If my assumption is wrong, what is the real root cause?
  • What would happen if the distance was the same as the view distance for other players?
  • Is the problem more of a client-side or server-side issue?
  • Is it related to some attribute about containers specifically, be it anything from protective cases to vehicles? Or is it simply any object that isn't a player, an AI, or part of the map?
  • I would assume that even if the model is not rendered in, the server obviously knows it's there, and at some level the client probably knows it's there too, likely well before it actually renders when the player gets within range. When it comes to unmoving, player-placed objects, what is the difference in workload for the client when that tent is inside the overall object view distance range, but just outside the preset tent render distance vs. inside the render distance?
  • With the advances and optimizations that we will start to see with .63 and continuing onward, in what ways will it address the wider issue (whatever it may be) that necessitated the lower view distance that were not possible and/or practical with the old engine?
  • It seems logical that this draw distance issue would have to be resolved for base building to be even remotely usable. Even if that newly built wooden wall or barricade can, unlike a tent, stop or at least slow down a bullet, having your entire base look like it was made entirely from parts salvaged from Wonder Woman's invisible jet from 500m away is not exactly ideal.  


I know that many of those questions can only be fully answered/explained by the devs. If they find a moment to do so, great! If not, I hope that they might perhaps consider using this in some form as an example in a Status Report in the future for showing how the new engine is able to handle a problem like this in ways the old engine couldn't.  

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Bullets can penetrate surfaces, so as long as someone knows you're in there, they could possibly kill you before you have any idea someone is out there or have a chance to see them.

But to my understanding, hit-detection is (almost?) entirely client-sided, the server might make checks for player/vehicle positions (and I think it does, hence people appearing to take hits but not dying) but ignores object checks. So if a building doesn't load but a player is standing in the second floor, you see them floating/jittering in mid-air and can shoot them regardless of walls/floors. You will (or used to) also be able to walk through the building like it wasn't there at all.

The obvious solution there is to have the server check for any kind of environmental obstacle in the bullet's path (every frame), but I've no idea what the implications would be for the server.

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10 hours ago, Dancing.Russian.Man said:

Bullets can penetrate surfaces, so as long as someone knows you're in there, they could possibly kill you before you have any idea someone is out there or have a chance to see them.

But to my understanding, hit-detection is (almost?) entirely client-sided, the server might make checks for player/vehicle positions (and I think it does, hence people appearing to take hits but not dying) but ignores object checks. So if a building doesn't load but a player is standing in the second floor, you see them floating/jittering in mid-air and can shoot them regardless of walls/floors. You will (or used to) also be able to walk through the building like it wasn't there at all.

The obvious solution there is to have the server check for any kind of environmental obstacle in the bullet's path (every frame), but I've no idea what the implications would be for the server.

I'm all for bullet penetration mechanics. A heavy canvas tent should offer no ballistic protection at all. If I know someone is either inside or hiding behind one, I expect to be able to fire through that tent and hit them if I correctly guess where they are (and not make it ridiculously easy by going outside the render distance and seeing the hiding player). The current state of the model penetration overall needs improvement, but that's to be expected when we're dealing with a mix of old A2 building models and newer models (for example, there are certain buildings where shotgun pellets cannot penetrate windows from either side, but all other weapons can).  That's a known bug, just like how sometimes buildings like the police station sometimes don't entirely render when you walk through the front door.

The tent render distance is a different thing entirely - it's been set at a specific range for a specific reason (which I assume is to reduce lag in certain situations), but has an unfortunate side effect of being able to see through them at long distances. As for the 'obstacle check' you mention, with people being able to shoot through bugged, unrendered building walls (that unlike tents, would stop a bullet), I'm cautiously hopeful that the code that is designed to prevent players glitching into buildings in .63 may also prevent that penetration issue from happening. 

What I am really curious about is the different factors that combine to create that need to limit the render distance of things like tents at both the server and client end of things in the current version, and how the upcoming patches will address issues like these. It's not just an idle curiosity either - understanding how the new engine approaches these problems differently than how it was approached with the legacy code will help a great deal when creating mods for SA. 

Edited by chambersenator

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I actually think there is a much simpler reason for the render distance to be low for tents at the moment. We all know that decreasing object render distances can increase performance, but I think a less obvious reason the render distance is low for tents is that we can hide them more effectively. In the future we will be able to build fortifications to defend our bases, but for now they stay hidden or they get raided. 

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exactly, so the low tent view distance has nothing to do with the performance... (meaning not the tent(s) itself because of the big lag caused by high item density on this position)

if a player could see a tent from 500m distance the whole camping fun is over for all. no one would ever build up a camp again after its raided the first time. this does not belong to bases...

i was hoping that the .62 overhaul of the chernarus+ forests will bring more density of the trees in the woods so that the view distance of tents could be screwed higher when new (camo) tents are in. but i didnt happen...quite the opposite happend. forrests are now more beautiful but also more insightful (talking of the standard forests).

edit: imagine if helis are in, on populated server a pilot will find a tent every 2 min and give the coordinates of it his freinds... this is not what we want.

Edited by Funkdoc

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Put up a tent in a forest then check with binocs or a scope how far away you can see it

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My questions is.. will these specific old legacy parts still exist down the road this way, or will they be looked and changed?

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2 hours ago, Irish. said:

My questions is.. will these specific old legacy parts still exist down the road this way, or will they be looked and changed?

We don't really know the exact reason for the behavior, so slapping a "legacy code" sticker on it isn't really right. It may well be intended or there may be other reasons. The term "legacy" should only be used for things that are (or soon to be) defunct. I doubt that's the case here.

Edited by Dancing.Russian.Man

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2 hours ago, Dancing.Russian.Man said:

We don't really know the exact reason for the behavior, so slapping a "legacy code" sticker on it isn't really right. It may well be intended or there may be other reasons. The term "legacy" should only be used for things that are (or soon to be) defunct. I doubt that's the case here.

Well, I say that  because it is an old legacy code.. for lack of better terminology. This tent coding has been around since, well.. forever. My reason for questioning is solely based on curiosity.. will this be changed? Has it even been discussed? Because there are things like this, I am sure, that perhaps will not be touched in any way, while others will. So.. I am just curious and my reason for using "legacy" is because I have no idea what else to call coding that is old and may or may not be replaced during this process. 

 

I hear a bit of tension in your wording Russian.. maybe a break is due Brother? Only trying to help :)

Edited by Irish.

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2 hours ago, Irish. said:

Well, I say that  because it is an old legacy code.. for lack of better terminology. This tent coding has been around since, well.. forever. My reason for questioning is solely based on curiosity.. will this be changed? Has it even been discussed? Because there are things like this, I am sure, that perhaps will not be touched in any way, while others will. So.. I am just curious and my reason for using "legacy" is because I have no idea what else to call coding that is old and may or may not be replaced during this process. 

I hear a bit of tension in your wording Russian.. maybe a break is due Brother? Only trying to help :)

I'm sorry if my wording comes off as tense/aggressive, that's not my intention in the least.

I was actually trying to help too, by giving you info but I guess I should've been more specific. "Legacy" is a specific term for "unsupported" or "deprecated" in software development. It doesn't refer to age in any way. 10 years old code isn't legacy if it's still actively being used or developed, but a 6-month old feature will become a "legacy feature" if it's getting phased out (though that's a pretty extreme example).

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The whole thing will certainly change when they insert the whole basebuilding (baricades / watchtowers). Because it makes no sense, not to render the tents, but the rest. As an example the watchtower should be rendered with the same distance as the players .. otherwise the guards sit in the air ..... ok yes, we are sometimes funny Player-Birds ... but, really so we can sit in the air? but rather not.

Basebuilding will be a bigger challenge in the future than building "tent cities" ... maybe it will be "smaller but better".

for the greater it is, the more easy to find.

 

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Speaking of render distance. I tried to light a fire and put some flares on the center tower in Cherno, the one where you can go inside from the bottom and take the stairs up. I was really dismayed to see that just a block or two away from the tower and the light from either the torch or fire wouldn't render making the effort next to useless. Hopefully that will change in 1.0.

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