Donald Trump plays DayZ

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3 hours ago, BeefBacon said:

Stalin was a monster who committed horrendous atrocities, but I'm not going to give him a free pass because he was anti-Nazi.

I guess nearly all Anti Fascists, anarchists and communist in the west think the same. They are no Stalin fans. I guess that you mentioned Stalin because right wing media spread misinformation.

For the communist part of the Antifa the idea of communism remains. They are no Stalin fans.

For the anarchist part... most know that this is not possible with this world today. They know that works only in their small open heart community.

Many Antifa people are only Anti Fascists.

3 hours ago, BeefBacon said:

 but so long as we keep hitting Nazis and have no other response to them, there will always be Nazis.

Conversation is a big part of Antifa. Of course this part get not the attention of the media.

Edited August 22, 2017 by ImageCtrl

[BeefBacon 1185]

11 hours ago, ImageCtrl said:

I guess nearly all Anti Fascists, anarchists and communist in the west think the same. They are no Stalin fans. I guess that you mentioned Stalin because right wing media spread misinformation.

For the communist part of the Antifa the idea of communism remains. They are no Stalin fans.

For the anarchist part... most know that this is not possible with this world today. They know that works only in their small open heart community.

Many Antifa people are only Anti Fascists.

Conversation is a big part of Antifa. Of course this part get not the attention of the media.

A lot of communists dislike Stalin because they don't think he did communism "right." They think he messed up. They're still communists. That's the key difference between communists and neo-Nazis to me. Communists, usually, don't revere Stalin in the same way neo-Nazis revere Hitler. Nazis committed genocide as an end goal. Communists starved millions to death as an end result.

The problem with anarchists and any extremist group is that they don't realise that their views are unrealistic. Plenty of white nationalist groups hold no ill will towards non-whites and only want segregation. The fact that this might work in their small communities in bumfuck USA is no reason not to call them out on their bullshit. If there are members of Antifa that are only anti-fascist, then my criticisms obviously do not apply to them. Are they anarcho-communist thugs who use violence and intimidation to achieve their goals? If so, I voice my disapproval. The crux of your argument here is "not all," but that tends to just muddy the waters. I am criticising the actions and behaviour of a group broadly referred to as antifa. If there are individuals within that group to whom my criticisms do not apply, then great. When you criticise Nazis, you say "Nazis are bad." You don't say "Nazis are bad. Except Oscar Schindler, and all those within the Nazi party who opposed the regime, and those who were actually completely unaware of the atrocities being committed by the party and didn't even necessarily hold beliefs consistent with Nazi ideology, but were members of the party all the same." You have a very clear idea of who and what it is you're taking issue with.

If conversation is a big part of Antifa then I'm yet to see evidence of that. Neo-Nazis aren't big talkers either, but there are plenty of people on the right who want a conversation, but who are labelled as Nazis for wanting the wrong kind of discussion. Censorship and name-calling doesn't only do nothing to stop supremacist groups from forming, it does a great job of swelling their numbers. Person A says 2+2=5. Person B punches them in the face. Person C still needs an answer to 2+2, and so far they've only heard one answer.

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On 22.8.2017 at 3:23 PM, BeefBacon said:

If conversation is a big part of Antifa then I'm yet to see evidence of that.

Evidence is this thread. Evidence was the protest in Dallas.

On 22.8.2017 at 3:23 PM, BeefBacon said:

... is that they don't realise that their views are unrealistic.

I guess it is not so hard to find on google workers owned companys.

On 22.8.2017 at 3:23 PM, BeefBacon said:

Are they anarcho-communist thugs who use violence and intimidation to achieve their goals?

Yes, for example "no go areas for nazis". I would not call them thugs.

 

Edited August 23, 2017 by ImageCtrl

[BeefBacon 1185]

3 hours ago, ImageCtrl said:

Evidence is this thread. Evidence was the protest in Dallas.

You're conversing with a left-wing liberal. Your evidence doesn't count if the person you're 'debating' already agrees with you 90% of the time.

I've tried looking for information on Dallas. I can't find very much. One article that I think comes from local news states that when Antifa arrived, tensions escalated although it didn't escalate into full-blown violence. That's as much praise for Antifa as it is for the white supremacists. Lots of articles and videos about an altercation between Antifa and BLM, though. 

3 hours ago, ImageCtrl said:

I guess it is not so hard to find on google workers owned companys. For USA for example...

Workers owning a company is not the same as anarcho-communism. That there are companies owned by the workers is not proof that anarcho-communism is even close to viable. At best it shows that some companies can operate under the ownership of its workers, nothing more.

3 hours ago, ImageCtrl said:

Yes, for example "no go areas for nazis". I would not call them thugs.

Hmm. You look a bit like a Nazi to me. You've got the time it takes for that group of black-clad, masked, baseball bat-wielding not-thugs to cross the street to either convince me otherwise, or put on your running shoes. 

[ScipioII 176]

And I am out of he dayz forums. 

I was here for a game, not to listen to intolerant lunatic leftist propaganda.

My family are half black half white, Republican and support Trump. I see enough crap in the media calling me a racist and a bigot, no need to see it here too.

Enjoy the game people.

[BeefBacon 1185]

5 minutes ago, ScipioII said:

And I am out of he dayz forums. 

I was here for a game, not to listen to intolerant lunatic leftist propaganda.

My family are half black half white, Republican and support Trump. I see enough crap in the media calling me a racist and a bigot, no need to see it here too.

Enjoy the game people.

Fuck, I thought this was in Off-Topic or Gallery. Didn't realise it was General Discussion.

[emuthreat 2837]

I don't think that trying to prevent Nazis from speaking unopposed in public is going to deprive anyone of their hard-earned money or right to work hard and succeed in life.  So much focus on Antifa being anarcho-communists detracts from the issue at hand.

I would have thought it was a no-brainer to condemn antiquated and dangerous ideas seeping out into the mainstream again, but alas, I was wrong.  Too much faith in humanity, I guess.

Reminds me of a recent conversation about the Charlottesville incident in which someone said "I guess that's what they get for standing in the road."

I guess the only people actively opposing Nazis are the bad guys too.  Where does that leave the rest of us?

[BeefBacon 1185]

12 hours ago, emuthreat said:

I don't think that trying to prevent Nazis from speaking unopposed in public is going to deprive anyone of their hard-earned money or right to work hard and succeed in life.

What of those who are not Nazis, and are merely accused of being Nazis? Hell, the big protests in Boston the other day involved surrounding a bunch of evil neo-Nazis cowering in a gazebo. They were led by a horrible white supremacist Indian, surrounded by other horrible white supremacists holding evil, racist signs like "Black Lives Do Matter" and "No to GMOs."

"Nazi" is a word that is being thrown around so often that it is in danger of losing all meaning. It is all too often used as shorthand for people, usually right-wingers, who oppose the violence, intimidation tactics and ideology of groups such as Antifa. It's as brain-dead as calling Bernie Sanders a Marxist Communist.

I'll pose the same hypothetical to you as I did to ImageCtrl:

You look a bit like a Nazi to me. You've got the time it takes for that group of black-clad, masked, baseball bat-wielding not-thugs to cross the street to either convince me otherwise, or put on your running shoes.

12 hours ago, emuthreat said:

I would have thought it was a no-brainer to condemn antiquated and dangerous ideas seeping out into the mainstream again, but alas, I was wrong.  Too much faith in humanity, I guess.

Yes. ALL antiquated and dangerous ideas.

12 hours ago, emuthreat said:

Reminds me of a recent conversation about the Charlottesville incident in which someone said "I guess that's what they get for standing in the road."

Why?

12 hours ago, emuthreat said:

I guess the only people actively opposing Nazis are the bad guys too.  Where does that leave the rest of us?

But they're not the "only people." Antifa often shows up to already active rallies and counter-protests, and they like to stir shit up. I'm sure Antifa helps here and there. A group that helps to bolster numbers in disparate rallies across the country can be a good thing, but it frequently devolves into violence, thuggery, intimidation and property damage. Being an anti-Nazi doesn't make you the good guy. If, I don't know, John Wayne Gacy were to rise from the grave and vehemently condemn Naziism and join an Antifa march, I wouldn't decide he's suddenly just a swell guy because he's actively opposing Nazis.

12 hours ago, emuthreat said:

So much focus on Antifa being anarcho-communists detracts from the issue at hand.

The issue at hand is that anarcho-communist thugs who use violence and intimidation to achieve their political goals are "just anti-fascists." A bit like how far-right thugs who use violence and intimidation to achieve their political goals are "just white advocates."

[emuthreat 2837]

Wow.  Ohhhhhkaaaaaayyyyy.

Here I was thinking that this discussion was about the events in Charlottesville that prompted the OP.  Specifically, Trump's apparent unwillingness to quickly condemn the people chanting "jews will not replace us," along the people who didn't take three BIG steps away from that group when they heard those things.

But yeah, lets not worry about the white nationalist movement chanting anti-Semitic things, some of the people opposing them are communist thugs, you know.  This is known as the poisoning the well fallacy, and you've been using it all along to distract focus from Nazis and white nationalism.

This is why I am annoyed and feel the need to keep explaining this.  Besides, antifa wouldn't exist if there were not large-scale misery and abuses of the working class.  Now the billionaire misers are using racial tension to keep us distracted from their next round of fleecing, and it appears to be working...

Maybe I am indifferent to the tactics used by antifa, maybe I even support their backlash against the large institutions that extract the majority of wealth generated from the economy with no value added or fear pay for those who actually generate that wealth.  Insurance companies take the hit anyways.
I could cite all the stories of incidents like the guy getting knifed getting out of his car for a milkshake because he appeared to have a Nazi haircut, or any of the other things that are done by individuals who are just looking for an excuse to do some damage, but that is beside the point.

BUT we aren't here to talk about antifa tactics and the struggles of the working class.  This is about the rise of mainstream hate in the US (and Europe) and where, based on historical observation, it is likely to end if left to grow unchecked.

Well, actually we are here to talk about DayZ, but I saw someone trying to take focus off a burgeoning movement of mainstream hate and discrimination, opting instead to focus on a fringe group of rabble-rousers who sometimes like to smash things.

I think we've done beat this one into the ground, mate.

[Kirov (DayZ) 585]

On 21/08/2017 at 11:27 PM, emuthreat said:

Maybe I just have too much old rascal blood in me, but some things belong at the bottom of the harbor.  I would include Nazi ideals and White Nationalist movements among the top of that list.

By condemning Antifa and avoiding addressing the "white problem," you are making the same mistake as Trump did to inspire the satirical video.

 

Sorry for the wall of text.  I feel that this is a very real and pressing issue that absolutely needs to be understood and dealt with before history repeats itself.

I'm running of out beans to give. I am myself a steadfast anti-fascist and a member of a Polish anti-fascist NGO (NEVER AGAIN Association). While sometimes the Antifa guys can piss me off every now and then (I believe in the rule of law and the 'let's convince the public' approach, while they like to provoke the police over here in Europe and otherwise assume tactics which drive 'normal' people away), the notion that there's anything even approaching symmetry between us and the far-right is completely ridiculous. What they want to bring is nothing less than hell on earth (you know, speaking from the country with all those Nazi concentration camps in).

The entire system in the civilized West is rigged against minorities and women, and the counterargument for that is 'look, not all of those constantly-fucked-in-the-ass people are saints'? Don't make me laugh.

I wish those white people who preach symmetry so much could spend one day, one fucking day as a black guy or woman. I wonder how many would start shooting the first moment a cab doesn't want to pull over.

I'm busy these days so can't write more, but keep it up, emu.

[Mookie (original) 799]

3 hours ago, emuthreat said:

Wow.  Ohhhhhkaaaaaayyyyy.

Here I was thinking that this discussion was about the events in Charlottesville that prompted the OP.  Specifically, Trump's apparent unwillingness to quickly condemn the people chanting "jews will not replace us," along the people who didn't take three BIG steps away from that group when they heard those things.

I think we've done beat this one into the ground, mate.

Well....yes it was. I kind of regret it now (just as I regret not posting it in off-topic).

Sorry all.

[BeefBacon 1185]

4 hours ago, emuthreat said:

But yeah, lets not worry about the white nationalist movement chanting anti-Semitic things, some of the people opposing them are communist thugs, you know.  This is known as the poisoning the well fallacy, and you've been using it all along to distract focus from Nazis and white nationalism.

When did I say don't worry about the white supremacists? When did I even imply that they weren't a problem? If anything I have said the polar opposite. The problem I am raising is that violent tactics do not stop neo-Naziism as an ideology, and if anything it does a lot more harm than good by pushing people who are simply right-wing even further right. The disparate groups broadly referred to as Antifa are thugs, and perpetuate a violent, far-left ideology. That doesn't make all anti-fascists bad, I'm saying that being anti-fascist doesn't make you good. You're a fan of naming fallacies, so I invite you to keep burning that strawman.

4 hours ago, emuthreat said:

 Besides, antifa wouldn't exist if there were not large-scale misery and abuses of the working class.

And why do neo-Nazis exist? Sometimes it's just because they're hateful, vile people, but you'll find that most of the time they have legitimate concerns - real or imagined - that drive them to believe what they believe. We need to address these issues, and address why they believe what they believe. We need to tell and and show them how and why they are wrong, not beat them into submission and hope that they shut up - because they won't.

5 hours ago, emuthreat said:

This is about the rise of mainstream hate in the US (and Europe) and where, based on historical observation, it is likely to end if left to grow unchecked.

White supremacy is not "mainstream" but it is certainly on the rise - as all forms of extremism are. I also agree that white supremacism probably represents the most immediate threat. However, extremism whether left or right, religious or secular, should be challenged at all times, not just when it is convenient. You are right. Extremism if left unchecked will grow. So check it. By supporting violent tactics, you are not supporting a solution, you're just creating yet another problem.

1 hour ago, Mookie (original) said:

Well....yes it was. I kind of regret it now (just as I regret not posting it in off-topic).

Sorry all.

I made it a political thing, not you. It's my fault. And Emu's fault. But mostly my fault.

[emuthreat 2837]

1 hour ago, BeefBacon said:

And Emu's fault.

I'll own my piece of this getting a bit out of hand.