Primitive Firearms: The forgotten Survival Weapons.

[superunknown29 5]

I have played/ followed DayZ for years. I have played off and on, and mostly just followed the development. One thing has struck me about this game, and it is the lack of primitive firearms. 

First off, I will define "Primitive Firearm". a primitive firearm is basically any weapon that does not fire self contained metal cartridges, use an inferior by todays standards gunpowder (commonly known as black powder), and were originally designed Starting in the 14-1500's and stayed the dominant form of firearm technology until the 1890s They vary greatly in design and use so i will break them up into classes

The HandGonne- This is essentially the first known widely used small arm to exist. It is basically a very small cannon strapped to a piece of sturdy wood with a small hole at the back of the breach area to light the main powder charge with a match, or piece of smoldering rope. These were very inaccurate but incredibly simple and a perfect weapon to be a craft able firearm. they only fire one round at a time and must be loaded with powder and projectile separately in that order before being able to be fired again. The projectiles it fired vary greatly. it could be loaded with anything from rocks, to lead shot, to large round lead balls that were slightly smaller diameter than the bore of the handgonne itself. These would make an excellent option for crafting using tree wood and pipe. 

the Single loaded long arms- these were the next evolution in firearms technology and varied greatly. earlier versions using a lever that is attached to an arm that held your lit match rope that is lowered into the touch hole on the barrel to fire the powder charge and discharge the weapon. the next evolution used a hammer (or cock) that held a piece of sharp flint that struck a steel plate to create sparks that fell into a pan filled with powder that would send fire into the barrel to fire the main charge and discharge the weapon. These were called flintlocks and they came in both civilian and military smooth bore and rifled variants. the smooth bored versions were often rarely accurate past 100m on a man sized target with the rifled versions being able to stretch that accuracy of an accomplished marksman to 200m. the military versions of these arms were called Muskets, were unrifled (like a shotgun) and were often loaded with single undersized single round-ball projectiles and were capable of shooting roughly 3 shots per minute. civilian versions were either smooth bored or rifled with the smooth bore weapons being roughly 20-16guage and commonly referred to as "fowlers" and were often used with either shotgun style lead pellets or a slightly undersized ball tightly patched with either a lubricated cloth or leather to make the projectile leave the barrel as straight as possible. The rifled versions were used with only the lubricated tightly patched round-ball and were about 1/3 slower to load than the military muskets. Later variants of these weapons mentioned kept their relative principles save that the firing mechanism was advanced from a flintlock to a hammer igniting an early primer called a percussion cap, that was attached to a nipple on the exterior of the barrel to allow the primer fire to go into the barrel and ignite the main powder charge. these guns still used the same basic ammunition types save that a conical lead projectile more like what we now know as bullets was used in the military variants, and the military variants converted over to rifled barrels. with the greatly reduced time between trigger pull and the ignition of the main charge (this is called lock time) these guns were often capable of 4-500m shots by an accomplished marksman. All of these long arms were anywhere between 10-20 lbs depending on which weapon you pick up. 

pistols- These weapons were often simply one hand versions of their larger long arm counterparts being either matchlock, flintlock, or percussion lock with a single shot to get the job done. the one big advancement came with percussion locks. this allowed for the invention of the percussion revolver. These weapons act much like the revolver in your game already save for these differences. 

1. they do not have the ability to shoot by simply pulling the trigger. these revolvers were often single action only, which means that the hammer must be cocked before each round can be fired.

2. these revolvers did not take self contained cartridges. you had to load each individual cylinder chamber with powder, lubricated wad, and tightly fitted round lead ball projectile. then you have to replace the spent percussion caps on the nipples at the back of the cylinder chambers. yes you get the advantage of 6 shots before you are out, but once the revolver is empty it takes 3-4minutes to fully reload it. some revolvers allowed for you to quickly replace empty cylinders with preloaded replacements, but that "quick reload" was still a 6-10 second proceedure. 

3. these revolvers were big and heavy, or small and wimpy. "service" sized revolvers were 2-4 lbs and had barrels that were often 8-12 in long. so heavy bulky and cumbersome would be their drawbacks. 

 

All of these weapons had very rudimentary sights and absolutely no provision for any optics whatsoever. 

 

Now, if your still reading you may be wondering where the crafting comes in. Here is the crux of why i think these types of weapons should be in the game. These weapons are the only weapons that are completely craftable ammunition in all of its parts

Traditional gunpowder or Blackpowder is actually very craft-able using a mix of salt peter, sulfur, and charcoal (for obvious reasons im not posting specifics because it is not something to be tried on a whim). all of these things could easily be made scavenger/craft-able in game. industrial areas could have sulfer byproducts added to them, same with salt peter (in a pinch you can make salt peter from urine). and charcoal can be made with a fire, a tin, and wood. 

Lubricated patches for the weapons that need it could be made from rags or from animal hides. the lubrication was traditionally a combination of equal parts bees wax and animal fat or tallow. this lubrication was soaked into the patches while warm and allowed to dry to make a hardish lubricant that can will not soak in and corrupt the powder when loaded into the weapon for long periods of time. the lube's job is to make the projectile go down the barrel easily and to keep the fowling soft for cleaing (i will touch on that later)

Projectiles would be VERY flexible. hand made handgonnes and maybe matchlocks would be able to shoot things like nuts/bolts/rocks/ bits of metal that you scavenge around, while flintlock rifle, pistol, and fowlers as well as percussion long-rifles and pistols and revolvers would require the scavenging of lead and crafting into round balls. 

Paper cartridges: These would bring books and paper back into necessity. taking a piece of paper and twine you can make little capsules that contain your powder and projectile in single packets allowing for a slightly faster reload for single shot muzzle loading long arms versus using loose powder, wads and projectiles. 

 

advantages/balancing: the advantages of these weapons being added into the game would be pretty obvious. it would add a massive depth of gameplay in the role play/early game department. It would allow for a break up of the inevitable rush to military grade weapons that dominates the game by making these weapons easier to find and modern guns/ammunition more rare finds. (especially ammunition). these guns could be self sustaining in the ammunition department. 

the balancing would also be fairly self evident. because these guns use black powder, they are more prone to getting dirty and rusting. they would have to be cleaned more frequently or they would wear in an accelerated manner. their range would be limited and their reloading and accuracy would render them inferior to modern arms. also, Black powder when fired creates a large slow burning flash an large plume of smoke. a heavy gunfight might obscure entire parts of a town or woods in lingering smoke. another aspect of balancing is weather. you would have to keep your powder in a water tight container and would be rendered completely useless when wet unless dried thoroughly. again crafting would come into play. taking the antlers of deer to make powder horns to keep the powder dry and using the deer leather to make loading pouches and straps to free up space in your pack would be invaluable. 

 

I realize that i do not really post here, but i would be interested what the devs think of this. finally, i will leave you with some picture links of the weapons i have been describing: 

handgonne- 

long arms:

 

 

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/deadliestwarrior/images/2/2c/Musketeer_5.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20100601182551

single shot pistols and revolvers:

 

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=910019&d=1386384814

http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/guns/images/5/57/1858.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20111113222601

Thanks for your time

Edited April 11, 2017 by superunknown29
added pictures

[Arkwright74 3]

bloody good idea.  FIX BAYONETS AND CHARGE.

[superunknown29 5]

5 hours ago, Arkwright74 said:

bloody good idea.  FIX BAYONETS AND CHARGE.

In all my giant wall of text I didn't even think about boyonets. Also something i forgot to to mention about lead. This game already has the potential to make scavenging lead a reality. There are destroyed cars everywhere. And lead is used as counterballance weights to properly balance automotive wheels. Possible spawns for lead could be those cars, and those single bay  mechanic shops that usually don't provide much. 

[caik 122]

I like your thinking superunknown29.

How about a museum in downtown Chernogorsk, with a rare loot chance of one of the above weird and wonderful weapon. In this museum there could be paintings and murals of the trauma of war. Maybe even a very rare chance of a two man Browning water cooled machine gun? Firing, dismantling and carrying could require a two man team. Would be excellent for base defence or roadblock as well as frustratingly temperamental.

In this museum there could be different themes in each room, with the low chance of a super rare weapon from each. African theme, stuffed animals, throwing spear or a blowpipe and darts. WW1 theme, military manequins with the Browning (or Russian equivalent). Russian space theme, sputnik and whatever weapon they would have taken into space (maybe melee?) or a space suit. Religious theme, parchments, varying religious outfits, books and a giant golden mace. Torture dungeon theme, caged manequins, executioners hood, thumbscrews and a cat of nine tails.

I better stop before I let my imagination get carried away (again).

 

[nl 986]

Meh, I would rather stay close to what you could realisticly find in a rural Russian area. I know hunting is still being done with black powder by some 'purists' but it's pretty rare although maybe here and there you could find a hunting rifle in Chernarus. I think black powder pistols is a step too far. Also finding WW1 machine guns that could be made to work again and finding ammo for it is not very realistic.

[superunknown29 5]

6 hours ago, nl said:

Meh, I would rather stay close to what you could realisticly find in a rural Russian area. I know hunting is still being done with black powder by some 'purists' but it's pretty rare although maybe here and there you could find a hunting rifle in Chernarus. I think black powder pistols is a step too far. Also finding WW1 machine guns that could be made to work again and finding ammo for it is not very realistic.

To your point. Black powder is more of a thing in Europe/ Russia than it is in the US because it is one of the least regulated firearms in that area of the world. There is a massive reproduction market making new versions of these old guns even today. Just google "petersoli" "pietta" "uberti" etc.. there is  even a world championship muzzle loading competition held in europe every year and Russia fields a team. I would argue that these types of firearms would be MORE likely to be found in the rural isolated areas than Modern arms.

Also, while the setting is russia, the presence of a large multitude of slightly misnamed but definately identifiable as non native weapons are already present. (The fal/m4/Winchester) Given the state of commerce pre apocalypse it is arguable that people purchased these weapons for hunting or recreation. There is also the premise that there are an entire set of native Russian primitive firearms that would be present. Heirlooms, hunting weapons, military museums. 

Edited April 11, 2017 by superunknown29
Spelling, additions

[superunknown29 5]

I did a little digging to speak to the issue of regional arms as expressed by nl.

 

Here are some examples of russian primitive firearms

Patern 1808

Modle of 1813 tula 

russian .70calibre percussion musket model 1845

Russian Model 1756 flintlock musket

 

 

The Tula Arsenal in Russia made almost exact copies of the Colt 1851 Navy pistols for decades:

 

[green_mtn_grandbob 594]

Don't forget the Winchester 95 internal magazine lever action  in 762x54 that Russia bought and as the 762x54 is in game now.  

[superunknown29 5]

29 minutes ago, green_mtn_grandbob said:

Don't forget the Winchester 95 internal magazine lever action  in 762x54 that Russia bought and as the 762x54 is in game now.  

while i agree, it needs to be in the game; it is still a self contained cartridge that you would have to scavenge. you would not be able to make all of the components from scratch to sustain the weapon. 

Edited April 12, 2017 by superunknown29

[Blafirelli 39]

It's worth mentioning there are also modern black powder muzzleloaders available, which are pretty popular nowadays.

Edited April 12, 2017 by Blafirelli

[superunknown29 5]

Those could be used with this type of system. 

 

making percussion caps would open up the ability to use empty cans and cut them up to be the casing four the percussion cap.

 

The only issue i see is that many of those inline muzzle loaders that you posted do not use percussion caps, but use actual modern primers...

[BeefBacon 1185]

I don't know. Even if I knew how to make gunpowder, I don't think my first response in any survival situation would be "I should make an arquebus." 

But then I suppose I don't have anything against it being in the game so long as it's purely crafted or, perhaps, can be found in a museum building. I'd actually love a museum. Would be a great place for the great helmet and the sword to spawn, as well as the Mosin and any other outdated weapons or items... I mean, sure, I doubt that realistically those weapons would actually still function, and the sword wouldn't be exactly sharp, but eh. Would still be cool.

[superunknown29 5]

32 minutes ago, BeefBacon said:

I don't know. Even if I knew how to make gunpowder, I don't think my first response in any survival situation would be "I should make an arquebus." 

But then I suppose I don't have anything against it being in the game so long as it's purely crafted or, perhaps, can be found in a museum building. I'd actually love a museum. Would be a great place for the great helmet and the sword to spawn, as well as the Mosin and any other outdated weapons or items... I mean, sure, I doubt that realistically those weapons would actually still function, and the sword wouldn't be exactly sharp, but eh. Would still be cool.

Think of it this way. These class of weapons would add depth to the game. Right now, at least in my experience, the game is very one dimensional. Spawn on coast... get food/sharp stick/empty shotgun/ cop pistol... run to military area..... turn into a swat member...... find a tent.... start hoarding military shit...kill, die, rinse repeat. I am not saying that this is not fun, but it gets a bit tedious.  By creating an entire class of, admittedly inferior, firearms with realatively easily craftable and sustainable ammunition. It would add depth to the game. Imagine for a moment a confrontation. One player might only have a musket and a revolver. But He has  more ammo than you (say 10rounds in components of musket/ 18rounds in components in pistol)  spent the time to find spare cylinders to reload for his revolver, and made paper cartridges for his musket. You ran for an airfield right at the start and purely skavenged; so you better make those 6rounds in your sks count or it will become his sks. Yes he has a much longer reload than you, which is your advantage, but every time he fires he creates his own smoke screen, and he might or might not be there when you pull the trigger. By contrast a player equipped with black powder has all the advantages of a relative abundance in ammunition, but has to be very careful what he shoots at because that same fireball plume of smoke from the black powder tells everyone where he just shot from, and he has to take into account whether he is confident enough with his musket to make the shot, or if he should close to pistol range. It would add the age old and very Russian paradigm... quality (or technology) versus quantity:..

Edited April 13, 2017 by superunknown29

[Irish. 4886]

 OP:

First off, those weapons are too outdated for this version of dayz. They simply do not fit into the game. Maybe for a mod, but not at all for Chernarus. 

Secondly, if what you truly desire is more depth.. the devs have already discussed putting those special work sheds to use down the road. Apparently that is where we will do gunsmithing, and other types of extensive crafting eventually. 

[superunknown29 5]

5 hours ago, Irish. said:

 OP:

First off, those weapons are too outdated for this version of dayz. They simply do not fit into the game. Maybe for a mod, but not at all for Chernarus. 

Secondly, if what you truly desire is more depth.. the devs have already discussed putting those special work sheds to use down the road. Apparently that is where we will do gunsmithing, and other types of extensive crafting eventually. 

I can't wait for the bench you mention in your second paragraph. And I agree that this class of firearm would be outclassed in an equal fight by a modern weapon. However,  I cannot agree that these weapons would be out dated. There are two reasons for this. The first one has been mentioned (craftable, renuable ammunition). The second one is more brutal. These weapons, while limited in range and reload, made up for it in brute force and soft target destructive power. Let's take the m4 carbine's ammunition. The military spec m193 5.56mm cartridge fires a 55grain projectile at between 1500-3500 feet per second depending on barrel length. The average military musket of almost every major nation including Russia fired a soft lead projectile varrying from .54cal to .70caliber weighing in at as high as 400grains at a velocity of nearly 1500 feet per second. The wounds created by these projectiles on unarmored flesh were devestating because of the large surface area of the projectile combined with its relatively slow velocity meant that a much larger percentage of the total energy that the round possessed when hitting the target was transferred to the target instead of passing through the target. To give a rough conversion for any European readers. .556mm is .223 inches/ .50caliber heavy machine gun rounds are 12.7mm. And .70caliber is 17.8mm. 

A rough Weight comparison would be 400grains = 25.9grams. To put that in perspective 762x 54r bullet weight is 13.6 grams. 

 

In a survival situation where there ammunition sustainability is second only to food, there is almost no such thing as open equal combat, and ambush/guarilla tactics rule the day, I do not see these weapons as in appropriate for the game. 

Edited April 13, 2017 by superunknown29

[Irish. 4886]

I love your knowledge and input man.. I do. I just think that Chernarus, and the game they have built has no real place for these types of weapons. Now that is just the vanilla base game though..

 

I would love to see modding take this game further.. new map, different era.. fucking pirates and muskets, circa 1800's or so. Or a civil era style of mod, with weapons like this throughout. But mixing so old, with so current.. seems very off for this type of game in my opinion. Again, in regards to the vanilla game and the story/lore they've built around it (or lack there of). 

[superunknown29 5]

3 hours ago, Irish. said:

I love your knowledge and input man.. I do. I just think that Chernarus, and the game they have built has no real place for these types of weapons. Now that is just the vanilla base game though..

 

I would love to see modding take this game further.. new map, different era.. fucking pirates and muskets, circa 1800's or so. Or a civil era style of mod, with weapons like this throughout. But mixing so old, with so current.. seems very off for this type of game in my opinion. Again, in regards to the vanilla game and the story/lore they've built around it (or lack there of). 

Chernarus is a mix of rural farmland, small towns, big cities, and military installations. Its not any more out of the relm of possibility to walk into an old farm house and find these types of weapons than to walk into a military camp and walk out with a semi auto rifle and a couple mags of ammo after  poking a couple of zekes with a stick... It is probably more realistic to find grandpa's old hunting muzzle loader that was left abandoned in the evacuation in favor of better weapons... its the apocalypse, the tier 1 stuff would all be used up. this isn't really the case... because all you have to do is wander between military areas timing the spawn zones and turn yourself into rambo. 

 

also, as someone who dabbles in the "survivalist" scene (mostly for shits and giggles). there are many who keep these types of firearms because of the renewable and craft able state of the ammunition needed. I personally own an american pattern Italian made percussion revolver. and in a pinch. i would not feel under gunned with it, and it would go in my "oh shit" bag in a heart beat for general purpose use and i would be saving my good shit for emergencies. 

 

Basically in the if you want to make crafting a thing, these types of weapons would open a huge door in the crafting and role play department. I don't want them to compete with modern arms. I want them to be weapons that are required as fall back weapons because of the crafting nature of the ammunition, or being able to make a firearm that can at least ambush a bandit if you really need it. 

Chernarus may not be the perfect setting, but its the map we have and it would make a great testing ground considering the modularity the developers are toting.

Sadly i don't think a developer will notice this thread.. the "already suggested" thread has not been updated in 3 years...

[atempleton 123]

Muzzle loaders would make sense to have, they are quite common in Europe because they're largely unregulated. They're also very versatile, because they can fire any projectile that can fit down the muzzle if you got powder. If you get powder and paper, you could craft them together to make a cartridge, like a magazine, and then refill it by adding lead balls or rocks. The reload would be slow, but the gun can be made very powerful to compensate. I think the guns that would make most sense out of muzzle loaders to have would be things like the P1853 Enfield .577 Caliber Rifled musket (Crimean War Capture/Surplus,) and also things like maybe the Brown Bess Flintlocks in .71-.75 caliber, given they are also the most commonly owned single type of firearm in the world that predates the 20th Century.

[superunknown29 5]

23 minutes ago, atempleton@live.com.au said:

Muzzle loaders would make sense to have, they are quite common in Europe because they're largely unregulated. They're also very versatile, because they can fire any projectile that can fit down the muzzle if you got powder. If you get powder and paper, you could craft them together to make a cartridge, like a magazine, and then refill it by adding lead balls or rocks. The reload would be slow, but the gun can be made very powerful to compensate. I think the guns that would make most sense out of muzzle loaders to have would be things like the P1853 Enfield .577 Caliber Rifled musket (Crimean War Capture/Surplus,) and also things like maybe the Brown Bess Flintlocks in .71-.75 caliber, given they are also the most commonly owned single type of firearm in the world that predates the 20th Century.

very true. and thats the whole idea, you spawn in, next to a generally lootless industrial area and instead you could walk away with a steel pipe, endcap and a hand drill. find a fireaxe, and make a pole out of a tree trunk. a leather belt (if added to the game) could be used to strap the two together after using axe to fashion a cut out. them either find black powder in an old farm house or barn, or find the components and make it yourself, and you have a home made firearm. hell, if the developers wanted to, they could allow for "home made pistol", "homemade shotgun", and "home made Darrenger" like these, from scrap metal and wood. 

examples of home made guns

[Blafirelli 39]

On 14. 4. 2017 at 4:22 AM, superunknown29 said:

Imho this one is very fitting the DayZ setting :)

 

[superunknown29 5]

9 hours ago, Blafirelli said:

 

;) now if only the devs would consider it. 

[Chainsaw_Squirrel 54]

Being able to reload bullets would also be good for a camp or base situation ... but few give a crap about realism in this game .. just crab a gun and ammo box full of ammo and kill everything in sight .. which is sad  thats the best people can come up with . I will see if it's possible as a mod if they don't do something of the sort