On the usefulness of handguns and shotguns

[aGWulfy 1]

Is it just me or are most handguns in this game almost completely useless?

According to the wiki page on Dayz weapons the 9mm handguns do 889 damage. This means it generally takes almost a whole magazine of 9mm to take out one survivor, worse yet with the Makarov and its 8 round magazine. You need more than one full magazine to kill someone, especially considering you will also probably miss many of the shots.
What makes their low damage even more ridiculous is the fact that the .45 ACP handguns, those being the M1911 and the revolver, do completely adequate damage of 4500. In real life there is a lot of serious discussion about whether the .45 ACP or the 9mm round is better, but in this game the 9mm round is completely useless, with the possible exception of the silenced MP5/Bizon which can adequately take out zeds simply thanks to their volume of fire. But they're not handguns.

What makes this even more interesting, then, is the fact that the weapon that does the most damage at muzzle is the Winchester 1866 which fires the .44 Henry, which is very slightly faster with a given bullet weight than the .45 ACP and should therefore be about as powerful.

And to top all that off the shotguns are considered pretty much useless because their slug ammo only does as much damage as the .45 ACP handgun. Think about it:
an 11.5mm slug weighing 12-15 grams, going 250-370m/s depending on weight
does as much damage as
an 18.5mm slug weighing up to 30 grams, +/- some, going 550m/s assuming those 30 grams.

The caliber is bigger, slug is heavier and it goes faster
and it does the same damage.

You might somehow justify the .44 Henry doing more damage than the .45 ACP (say, all the .44 Henry ammo is really nice expanding ammo loaded with smokeless powder instead of black and all the Winchesters are upgraded to withstand that while all the .45 ACP is military-issue FMJ ammo), but even if you don't do that, it's straight out impossible to justify having the shotgun slug do as much damage as the .45 ACP.

So with this background info in mind, here are the actual suggestions.

The 9x19mm ammo should do something like 3500 damage, maybe slightly less. Should take out an enemy at full health with 4-5 shots in the chest. Damage dropoff should be pretty quick, but should still do at least the current damage at 150-200m.
SD ammo should do slightly less damage, but still kill with 5-6 shots in the chest at close range.
This would make it an actual problem, deciding between .45 ACP and 9mm where both clearly have their advantages and neither is useless.
9x18mm ammo (Makarov and Bizon) should do slightly less damage than the SD 9x19mm, because it's already subsonic and a lighter bullet at that. Killing an opponent with a single Makarov magazine should still not be a big deal as long as you don't miss more than twice or so. Basically it should be a similar 5-6 shot kill. While I imagine its SD variety must exist due to technical reasons, it should do the same amount of damage as the normal version because, as I said earlier, the normal version is already subsonic so in practice there is no need for a specialized SD round.
Alternatively the normal version could be removed altogether, this would create an additional incentive to use the Makarov/Bizon, it being that even unsilenced it doesn't alert the zeds. This is just a random thought, though.
The .45 ACP could remain as it is or get a slight damage reduction. Still, it should be considerably more powerful than the 9mm and take out enemies in 3-4 shots.
The .44 Henry of the Winchester should be about as powerful as the .45 ACP. I don't even know if it should be slightly more powerful or slightly less powerful, but it's a similar round when it comes to bullet weight and speed so it should do similar damage.
The 12 gauge slug should take the .44 Henry's former place of being the most powerful round in the game at close range. I think it should start off at somewhere between 9000 and 10000 damage and the damage drop-off should be adjusted so that at some 200-250m it could still take an enemy out in 2 hits. The buckshot ammo should retain its one shot kill ability.

These changes were compiled keeping in mind Dayz's style of making weapons less deadly than they are in real life, but I also took into account the rounds' real worth and actual data. It would make the handguns a more important part of the game and an actual option for CQB. It would make it so the 9mm vs .45 debate could become a thing in Dayz  and it would make the Makarov realistic in that it can theoretically kill, even with one magazine, but in practice it's more effective as a throwing weapon. The shotguns would not be dismissed as useless and the Winchester... well, it would make more sense to someone who knows what the Winchester actually fires.

Alternatively all those rounds could be made fairly similar in damage in that they would all do very little damage, sort of like the 9mm rounds now (this would mean significantly nerfing the .45 ACP, .44 Henry and maybe the 12 gauge slug), but to make up for that they would have a very high chance of knocking the target unconscious, to the extent that 2-3 shots with the 9mm, 1-2 shots with the .45 ACP/.44 Henry or a single 12 gauge slug would almost guarantee that the opponent is unconscious. This would make them the ideal weapons for Heroes, because even if they don't get hit by some Survivor shooting at them, they can return fire at a very low cost to their humanity, one that they could possibly even make up for by patching up the now unconscious Survivor, blood bagging him/her, basically providing all the first aid he can before legging it so the Survivor can't get another shot.

These changes would fit in more with the current effectiveness of the 9mm rounds, but it would still make proper weapons out of the 9mm pistols and the shotguns, they would become weapons that you could actually rely on to save your life instead of being weapons that decrease your chances of survival because once you have them you're no longer considered unarmed by a someone who cares about that.

Edited August 19, 2016 by aGWulfy

[nl 986]

I use .45 for CQ self defense and the 9 mm (with suppressor) for infected.

I am pretty sure damage points will be corrected in the future,

[aGWulfy 1]

4 minutes ago, nl said:

I use .45 for CQ self defense and the 9 mm (with suppressor) for infected.

I am pretty sure damage points will be corrected in the future,

Well, even against the infected it can be pretty ineffective. For instance, when I tried taking out chasing zeds with a Makarov, I eventually came to the conclusion that with my accuracy I can take out about one zed for every magazine I have.

I sure hope the damage gets corrected soon.

[nl 986]

1 hour ago, aGWulfy said:

Well, even against the infected it can be pretty ineffective. For instance, when I tried taking out chasing zeds with a Makarov, I eventually came to the conclusion that with my accuracy I can take out about one zed for every magazine I have.

I sure hope the damage gets corrected soon.

I ignore the makarov, I'd rather run then try to use it against players or infected. But with a 9 mm I need no more then between 1-3 rounds to kill infected, average is 2 rounds I guess. A .45 will drop them at once, one shot one kill, same for shotgun. I don't pvp much but a single 9mm to the head will drop a player :)

Edited August 19, 2016 by nl

[Lizardpile 0]

The damages on the wiki are pretty inaccurate. At one point .45s did 4500 and 9mils did about 3000, then some time in 2013 an arma update nerfed pistol damage. I'm  fairly  certain right now that .45s do about 2500 damage and 9mm do about 1300. As for the Winchester, it currently does somewhere around 4500 damage. It formerly used to almost  double that for a few updates, and hasn't  been updated since then. that being said, I've gotten many kills with makarov. If your a decent shot, it's fairly easy to pull off headshots, and the abundance of ammo makes it one of my first choices for zombie slaying. The glock is my favorite  handgun though - the sights are more or less perfect for headshotting. 

[Red_Ensign 990]

for zeds, go in a building and shut the door.  then easily kill the zeds through the window with a .22 or a pointy stick.

for players, get a good scope and kill them before they know you're there.

if you need to engage either in the open at close range, you did something wrong.

[Parazight 1599]

Meh.

Edited August 20, 2016 by Parazight

[☣BioHaze☣ 7337]

We are getting a new hit box and significant more balancing of damage values for everything in the future probably really starting during Beta and certainly continuing beyond.

[-Gews- 7443]

9 hours ago, aGWulfy said:

So with this background info in mind, here are the actual suggestions.

The 9x19mm ammo should do something like 3500 damage, maybe slightly less. Should take out an enemy at full health with 4-5 shots in the chest. Damage dropoff should be pretty quick, but should still do at least the current damage at 150-200m.
SD ammo should do slightly less damage, but still kill with 5-6 shots in the chest at close range.
This would make it an actual problem, deciding between .45 ACP and 9mm where both clearly have their advantages and neither is useless.
9x18mm ammo (Makarov and Bizon) should do slightly less damage than the SD 9x19mm, because it's already subsonic and a lighter bullet at that. Killing an opponent with a single Makarov magazine should still not be a big deal as long as you don't miss more than twice or so. Basically it should be a similar 5-6 shot kill. While I imagine its SD variety must exist due to technical reasons, it should do the same amount of damage as the normal version because, as I said earlier, the normal version is already subsonic so in practice there is no need for a specialized SD round.
Alternatively the normal version could be removed altogether, this would create an additional incentive to use the Makarov/Bizon, it being that even unsilenced it doesn't alert the zeds. This is just a random thought, though.
The .45 ACP could remain as it is or get a slight damage reduction. Still, it should be considerably more powerful than the 9mm and take out enemies in 3-4 shots.
The .44 Henry of the Winchester should be about as powerful as the .45 ACP. I don't even know if it should be slightly more powerful or slightly less powerful, but it's a similar round when it comes to bullet weight and speed so it should do similar damage.
The 12 gauge slug should take the .44 Henry's former place of being the most powerful round in the game at close range. I think it should start off at somewhere between 9000 and 10000 damage and the damage drop-off should be adjusted so that at some 200-250m it could still take an enemy out in 2 hits. The buckshot ammo should retain its one shot kill ability.

Subsonic ammunition can do similar damage to regular 9 mm. Less, but not enough to really notice. It's FMJ, it pokes 9 mm holes. Subsonic is usually heavier (147 vs 124 gr) so the energy is kept up. The MP5SD, however, is designed to use normal ammunition and reduces its velocity as it passes through the barrel. You might get only half the energy of a regular MP5... but still a 9 mm hole. It's easier if separate SD ammunition exists for now.

.45 should have somewhat more damage than 9mm, but not by a large amount. The two cartridges have very similar energies, neither lacks penetration and they are both low-velocity FMJ rounds which cause (relatively) minimal damage. Either round in the same place would have a similar effect. The larger diameter of the .45 isn't a huge advantage here and won't make up for poor shot placement vs the 9 mm. I don't like to try to put an exact number on it. I would probably feel okay-ish with a damage advantage between 15-35%. I agree with the idea that players should be able to debate which is superior.

Does the Winchester fire .44 Henry now? Or still using "1866 slugs"? Anyways, let's assume this gun is a replica, which are offered by a couple companies, because it makes no sense finding actual 19th century "Yellowboys". If it's a modern reproduction, it can come in various chamberings, including .44-40 (not the original .44 Henry). They also come in .38 Special, which is cheap, widely available, etc, and .38/.357 is easily the most popular chambering for carbines and revolvers in "cowboy action" shooting.

They would look something like this... just an idea...

.44-40 200 JSP (1866 rifle)
initspeed = 363;
airFriction = -0.002;

.38 Special 158 LRN (1866 rifle)
initSpeed = 290;
airFriction = -0.00115;

And the energy, 850 J and 430 J respectively (.45 ACP, 500 J, 9 mm NATO, 490 J, 9 mm Makarov, 295 J). Hit value, decide yourself.

12-gauge slug should have the highest damage of all mentioned rounds (assuming FMJ) and also the fastest loss of damage, apart from buckshot.

9 hours ago, aGWulfy said:

The 9x19mm ammo should do something like 3500 damage, maybe slightly less. Should take out an enemy at full health with 4-5 shots in the chest. Damage dropoff should be pretty quick, but should still do at least the current damage at 150-200m.

9 hours ago, aGWulfy said:

The 12 gauge slug should take the .44 Henry's former place of being the most powerful round in the game at close range. I think it should start off at somewhere between 9000 and 10000 damage and the damage drop-off should be adjusted so that at some 200-250m it could still take an enemy out in 2 hits.

Damage drop-off is based on remaining velocity and remaining velocity is based on the real-life ballistics. In these cases at 200 m it would be approx. 40% remaining for the slug and 70% for 9 mm (to nearest 10%).

About handguns vs rifles—handguns usually have far lower energy and typically cause much less serious wounds. Therefore pistol cartridges should have less damage than rifle cartridges. 5.45 is 2722, 5.56 is 3555. Pistols and submachine guns should be lower than those values—or total redo of all the damages.

5 hours ago, Lizardpile said:

The damages on the wiki are pretty inaccurate. At one point .45s did 4500 and 9mils did about 3000, then some time in 2013 an arma update nerfed pistol damage. I'm  fairly  certain right now that .45s do about 2500 damage and 9mm do about 1300. As for the Winchester, it currently does somewhere around 4500 damage. It formerly used to almost  double that for a few updates, and hasn't  been updated since then. that being said, I've gotten many kills with makarov. If your a decent shot, it's fairly easy to pull off headshots, and the abundance of ammo makes it one of my first choices for zombie slaying. The glock is my favorite  handgun though - the sights are more or less perfect for headshotting. 

Yes, damages are not correct on that site. It isn't being updated.

I believe they have changed them again but I haven't kept up with mod changes. It says in 1.7.7 changelog "Makarov and 1911 dmg updated". I forget what they changed it to, I assume original wacky ARMA values. Changed since?

Many damage values made little or no sense in ARMA 2, so they updated them based roughly on the weapons' muzzle energies. This was a nice change, in my opinion. However, DayZ mod survivors are a lot tougher than ARMA 2 NPCs, so the new damages didn't work so great in the mod.

Original ARMA 2 damage values:

9 mm NATO (Glock): 1389
9 mm Makarov (PM): 1828 (?)
5.45×39 mm: 3555
5.56 NATO: 3555
.45 ACP: 4500
12-gauge slug: 6655 (?)
7.62 mm NATO: 8000
.303 British: 12500

 

Post-patch damage values:

9 mm Makarov (PM): 813
9 mm NATO (Glock): 889
.45 ACP: 1389
5.45×39 mm: 2722
5.56 mm NATO (STANAG): 3555
12-gauge slug: 4455
.303 British: 6722
7.62 mm NATO: 8000

Here's a chart comparing the damage to muzzle energy both pre- and post-patch. The new damages make more sense—however, BIS likes round numbers for hit value, so instead of, for example, 7.42, they might round down to 7. You can see some are lower, but better match with the energy curve in general. The biggest deviation is for the 12-gauge slug. Maybe BIS used values for a reduced recoil slug, in which case their number would be appropriate. However, although the numbers are more consistent, basing them only on muzzle energy doesn't always produce good damage values for varied rounds...

 

 

Funny story about the why the Lee-Enfield was so powerful, too...

On 1/18/2014 at 3:21 PM, -Gews- said:

By the way the Lee-Enfield fully deserved its "nerf". The only reason it was that powerful in the first place (1.6x the damage of .308) was an overlooked value by BIS.

Here's the scoop:

In Operation Flashpoint, they included Sopwith Camels as an easter egg. In Armed Assault, the Camels made a return. The Sopwith Camel, of course, has twin Vickers .303 machine guns.

However this posed a problem, the Vickers would not be very powerful firing plain old .303, so BIS greatly increased the damage to allow people to shoot down other Camels easier (as well as destroy ground vehicles). They weren't supposed to be realistic anyways.

Fast forward to ARMA 2, and someone gave the Lee-Enfield the highly overpowered Sopwith Camel ammunition from ARMA 1 instead of creating proper .303 ammo.

Finally they got around to fixing up all the nonsensical damages for ARMA (Makarov over twice as powerful as M9, etc) and they gave the Lee proper damage.

 

The Enfield fires a 174-gr bullet at 2,440 ft/s for a muzzle energy of 2,300 ft-lbs.
The SVD fires a 152-gr bullet at 2,723 ft/s for a muzzle energy of 2,500 ft-lbs.
The M24 fires a 175-gr bullet at 2,625 ft/s for a muzzle energy of 2,677 ft-lbs.

Was 12,500 damage ever appropriate? I think not.

Edited August 20, 2016 by -Gews-

[thedogfoodyayho 295]

The current in-game model for winchester ammo is an original 19th-century style cardboard box that is marked .44 Henry. 

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=4

 

As for the Wiki, i added information on the new weapon attachments and some other new stuff awhile back. I didn't know how much damage the pistols did, so i left them as-is. 

 

Interesting story Gews. The Enfield is still probably one of my favorite in-game weapons. One shot is guaranteed to knock the target unconscious and it's quite accurate up to about 400. The only other guns i'd take over it would be an M16A2/A4, an FAL (provided there was ample ammunition) or an M14, or pretty much any sniper. I once pulled off a headshot just shy of 1000m on a guy who was ontop the NWAF firestation using one. Complete luck, i was just trying to suppress the guy while my buddy flanked. 

77348806

[-Gews- 7443]

21 hours ago, thedogfoodyayho said:

The current in-game model for winchester ammo is an original 19th-century style cardboard box that is marked .44 Henry. 

http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=4

 

As for the Wiki, i added information on the new weapon attachments and some other new stuff awhile back. I didn't know how much damage the pistols did, so i left them as-is. 

 

Interesting story Gews. The Enfield is still probably one of my favorite in-game weapons. One shot is guaranteed to knock the target unconscious and it's quite accurate up to about 400. The only other guns i'd take over it would be an M16A2/A4, an FAL (provided there was ample ammunition) or an M14, or pretty much any sniper. I once pulled off a headshot just shy of 1000m on a guy who was ontop the NWAF firestation using one. Complete luck, i was just trying to suppress the guy while my buddy flanked. 

77348806

Well... I suppose they wouldn't dare remove that gun, but... I mean... the weapon is now correctly chambered... but ammunition from early 20th century America is spawning all over the place for rifles dating from the mid-to-late 19th century, so... not sure if better.

 

1000? Wow, that was a nice shot... at 1000m the bullet would have just under 50% of damage remaining, about 2 seconds time of flight. You would have had your barrel pointed almost 40 feet above him. My furthest was 700 m... once.

I used to play around in the editor trying to use math and the Lee-Enfield to snipe at NPCs 3,000 meters away (at first with explosive rounds and zoom, but later only modified to extend the time of flight, normally capped at 6 seconds). Would shoot a few rounds, then skip to a camera to see where they landed 15 seconds later. Not accurate and hard to hit so I had to rain down a magazine or two. Wouldn't kill with just one shot.

On 10/7/2013 at 6:32 PM, -Gews- said:

 

[thedogfoodyayho 295]

3 hours ago, -Gews- said:

 

1000? Wow, that was a nice shot... at 1000m the bullet would have just under 50% of damage remaining, about 2 seconds time of flight. You would have had your barrel pointed almost 40 feet above him. My furthest was 700 m... once.

 

That was why i figured it was a headshot. The only reason i even realized i killed him was due to the humanity drop. I was just firing as fast as the rifle could above the firestation in an attempt to suppress the guy, and once my buddy actually got over there he found him lying dead on the roof. Hella' good luck if you ask me.

[Andrewescocia 0]

If you buff the pistols and shotguns then they will catch up with the other guns and the is a limit to how much you can buff everything. 

something will allways have to be the worst. The meta for dayz is long range sniping, Pistols, shotguns and SMGs allways will fall out of this meta.

Having said that I do feel that something can be done to improve things. buffing shotgun damg at close range and giving them a heavy range drop off in damg and flight arc would help. also taking them out of the army tents and putting them into lower tier loot locations. 

 

[Andrewescocia 0]

guy makes a pretty good case for pistol damg being about right in dayz atm 

[thedogfoodyayho 295]

18 hours ago, Andrewescocia said:

guy makes a pretty good case for pistol damg being about right in dayz atm 

I don't think anyone here is saying handguns should be as good as rifles. But ten-twelve rounds to the chest with a 9mm just to kill a man is a bit ridiculous. IMO a 9mm in DayZ should do about 2500 damage at the muzzle and a .45 should do about 3500. The velocity should degrade very quickly, but they would be able to be of some use at close range.

 

Shotguns should do somewhere around 7000-9000 damage per slug at the muzzle, but again this would degrade very quickly. Pellets are fine as they are IMO. Shotguns are actually decent weapons in DayZ, especially in cities, but slug ammunition is pretty much useless, especially if you've got a double-barreled - even if you get two hits, you have to reload and hit the target again to get a kill. If i carry a shotgun in DayZ i usually carry about 30-40 pellet rounds (ideally) and maybe 16 slugs for emergencies. The Winchester basically fires shotgun slugs (Similar damage, range, ect) but it does it faster and with twice the magazine capacity.

[aGWulfy 1]

On 8/25/2016 at 3:33 AM, Andrewescocia said:

guy makes a pretty good case for pistol damg being about right in dayz atm 

Point taken.

I still believe that handguns should at least be capable of neutralizing a threat with 5 rounds or less without a headshot. Okay, let's keep the threat alive then, but still, it should knock them unconscious for long enough that you can escape, if nothing else.

I actually even mentioned that as an alternative. That those "slugs" of all sorts would not necessarily kill you (I still think the shotgun slug should be a 1 shot kill, but no one else would agree so as a compromise we could settle for 2. But a 99.9% chance of unconsciousness), but rather knock you out. My point is that one way or another it should be nearly impossible that 5 hits with a handgun at close range wouldn't neutralize a threat. At this rate even the puny Makarov would be a somewhat formidable weapon.

[terpent 0]

Interesting thread. I also do not like the idea of useless guns but tbh it makes sense with zombies. Primarily because they are operated by brains fatally damaged because of recent (or not so) death. While i can see shotgun being capable of  exploding  zombies' heads, regular 9mm bullet will only (probably) damage one small component..

To be said, though, we need guns to be more usable in a videogame

[RRoses 2]

On 20.8.2016 at 1:04 AM, Red_Ensign said:

for zeds, go in a building and shut the door.  then easily kill the zeds through the window with a .22 or a pointy stick.

for players, get a good scope and kill them before they know you're there.

if you need to engage either in the open at close range, you did something wrong.

This is a DayZ Mod discussion. No pointy sticks or .22lr