The problem of DayZ SA - thread #999

[emuthreat 2837]

However i do not agree with the OP in general.......I really had to laugh there.

Hey, after months of poor performance, I did some PC maintenance and upgraded to an SSD for system and applications, and my DayZ quality has tripled.  One of the reasons that I never really bitched about the poor performance in the past, was that I could not be 100% sure that the performance issues weren't my fault.  After recently having confirmed my past technical negligence as the cause of my crappy framerate, I have even less sympathy for the moaning masses.

 

People seem to have a hard time grasping the concept of a major engine overhaul on a "moving vehicle" being nothing short of a miraculous task.  People have made dozens of analogies to explain this concept in the past.  Certain things just cannot get fixed or added into the game until the major elements supporting them are finished and integrated into the engine.  Kinda like when downloading a fairly large program, it takes the longest time to get all of the installation software, and related bits onto the computer, but once they are there, everything else just falls into place in seconds.  We are very near that precipice, and the information supporting that can be found on these forums; all one has to do is read (and understand) it.

[pilgrim* 3514]

..//..

 

 - it's a pleasure to read star citizen status updates, and exciting to follow the little pieces of released content...

 

..//..

 

Yeah, star-citizen, really nice.. it's beginning to look a lot like Wing Commander with much better graphics.. and multi-user online ..

 

Tell me - how are they going to deal with lag and hackers ?

 

 

when your brother says < already had more fun with DayZ SA than with SC or other finished games, and it is true. >

yes - that is true

 

                             

Edited October 22, 2015 by pilgrim

[Insane Ruffles 74]

You have two games, Rust and Dayz which both started development around the same time. Look at both these games. Garry has done an outstanding job with the development of Rust, and it has had amazing progress.

Dayz SA, on the other hand, is a giant stick in the mud. Look at the stuff we were promised, and look where we are. I uninstalled SA. I may install it sometime in 2018-2020 when the game actually gets finished.

[micalo 13]

Yeah, star-citizen, really nice.. it's beginning to look a lot like Wing Commander with much better graphics.. and multi-user online ..

 

Tell me - how are they going to deal with lag and hackers ?

 

 

when your brother says < already had more fun with DayZ SA than with SC or other finished games, and it is true. >

yes - that is true

 

                             

my point was not to start a war SC vs DayZ, but the comparison is an interesting one because both are funded by a fanbase, but progress in a diametrical way.

 

neither I tried to say that star citizen will succeed, and dayz fail, but I do like the way they manage and communicate things better...

 

regarding lags: they released the dog fighting module where they had to struggle with "rubber banding" effects, actually I do not know if they are completely resolved yet, because my PC is to slow for it anyway...

nevertheless, they have a plan how they release their modules and test functionality

 

I guess at the moment there is nothing interesting to get there for hackers, and they will have to deal with this later -we will see how they are up to this

Edited October 23, 2015 by micalo

[OrLoK 16185]

Hello there.

 

There is tonnes of info out there on DAYZ dev, most of it linked directly into these forums.

 

As to the old Tumblr, well I dont know what's up with that, but Im sure there's a reason for it being in the state it is.

 

Claims of "no progress", "dead game" etc ad nauseum can be (wrongly)levelled at any developing game (see Derek Smart and Star Citizen) it does not, however , mean that its true.

 

Rdgs

 

LoK

[q.S Sachiel 470]

You guys should research the production life of the F35-A.

Or maybe the Spruce Goose would be a better parallel should you wish to dig deep and see the doors it opened for society/advancement.

 

My biggest fear for DZSA is that it may be suffering from feature creep, but ultimately I can't judge it until it comes out, or until a reasonable time has passed for me to start levelling justified frustration at it.

Until then i'll still curse the usual bullshit rubber banding / glitching / clipping / lack of zombies / insert Alpha feature state here.

Edited October 23, 2015 by q.S Sachiel

[Jonah_Hobbes 171]

It is and from what I remember this is one of a very select few games/developers that has allowed access from so early on and involved so many players at most points of the development.

 

It's pretty uncharted territory for most companies. Consumers would not normally have access to the game at any stage of development until at the very least beta as you said, and that then is only on AAA titles or in closed circumstances, so any perceptions or expectations are mute. Also, watching the game grow pixel by pixel might give the game a "watched kettle feeling" when you can play with that pixel. Thinking about it, it's actually quite normal for developers to release small screenshots and concepts for about 80% of the project term and only start showing real game-play once the game is close or hitting Beta. So everything we are experiencing is still probably more than 90% of games that ever come out until they come out.

 

 

Well yes and no. Functionally players are a sort of "beta tester", officially though, you have been warned. As for development, it seems pretty on schedule coming into two years. If you include regular delays which are seen across all titles in the industry that could easily stretch to three and it would still be within reasonable development times.

 

I agree with you on one very important thing though; people are just not used to being on this side of the game. In my opinion, this is what fuels most of the dissent and misunderstandings.

 

 

 

 

BI and players tend to tell people to hold off on buying the game unless you want to actively aid development and deal with bullshit. Can't help it if some people want to throw their money at the project with no obligation or knowledge.

 

christ what are you on about?

[pilgrim* 3514]

..//..

Until then i'll still curse the usual bullshit rubber banding / glitching / clipping / lack of zombies / insert Alpha feature state here.

 

My point was simply this -

I did a tour of blogs & fan sites and youtube searching for "Elite Dangerous lag" Elite Dangerous hackers" "Elite Dangerous glitches" "Rust lag" Rust hackers" "Rust Glitches".. etc etc. try it - hey, guess what? they all have the same problems.

In fact all online games have those exact problems and the same discussions and the same rants, the same "video of hackers" and the same "how to cure lag" and the same "glitches in XXX"

I mean to say they are NOT "different games" - they are all the same in one thing = they use interenet UDP to communicate with a central server. It makes zero difference what game engine you have or how you render - that has nothing to do with it.. You need communication with the central server, the central serve must be authoritative, and you can't have any game elements running on the local PC that are open to hacker exploitation.. All games the same.

There is only one "state of the art" online-multiplayer tech ATM and all games must adhere to it. Minecreft, CoD.. whatever ... all the same.

OK. The BIG advantage of DayZ SA is they started from the baseline of "we design for zero hackers". That was the starting concept. Why? exactly because ArmA was designed for <between-friends> play, so it was not at all designed for hacker-protection, and DayZ Mod was therefore the same. So first up, DayZ SA design aimed to avoid THAT problem.

Unfortunately for Rust and Elite, etc, those games did not put hacker-proofing up front (as we are seeing). And it may be that zero hacks is an impossible outcome...because all that a real 'hacker' ever does is work to find ways to hack stuff that is supposed to be unhackable... (isnt that the definition?)

But DayZ started from that viewpoint - And following that you have the 2 necessary problems of UDP & server authority; As a physical fact of interenet gaming ATM these are necessary structural elements that give you the lag and glitches etc. The DayZ team are working on best techniques for minimizing these problems, and they have made some smart moves, and they are still working on it, one day someone somewhere will invent a 'much' better way of doing it (?) - But These are Internet Problems NOT DayZ problems. All games today have the same problems. And the other games that have not followed the SA lead aso have more hacker and exploit problems on top of these two. Check it out. Look round YouTube and verify.

BI-DayZ have said plenty about this technical stuff (as well as discussing the "what-your-eyes-see" game design) - they have been very open - definitely more open than the Elite team (for instance) .heh..

- the SA developers come across like human beings and not like PR announcers.

NOW - You really can not blame the DayZ devs if the USERS can't understand what they are talking about....

 

IF I explain to you what kind of carbon and alloy interface structure I need to join together the frame of your bicycle, so it rides good and doesn't fall to bits, you just won't get it. It's a lot of specialist work and you don't understand the subject.

OR I can give you some nice (expensive) PR footage with great music and a lot of good talky-talky thatt doesn't really mean jack... and you'll think "wow that sounds great"

Which do you want? 

Your choice - but you'll still have no idea what's really going on.. it' just all nice colors and nice sounds.. its an advertisement

... in fact BI don't do much of that PR at all..

For instance they don't have the chief designer sitting in the cockpit of his 'starfighter' and pretending he's somehow in the game while he tells you how wonderful it all is. If they did that, then many many players might be convinced DayZ was really great because ... wow, look at the ads.... but in fact it would still be the same game. So BI would still go on honestly telling you what is happening, what problems they have, what they are aiming for, what they are trying out...

For me these three problems - UDP - server authority - hackers - are truly interesting, it's in my subject area and I'm interested where the internet is going and interested in the future of online gaming... and most of the DayZ complaints here come right from that group of 3... (not all of them; not all, but plenty of them...; and I know the other complaints and comments are heard and considered - ya only have to play to see that).

So when I see Star Citizen looking more and more like Wing Commander (I used to play) I wonder how much is "creativity" and how much is "dong the same again" - and when I see his "modules" I wonder - when you fit them all together, what kind of PC is going to RUN that stuff..??? .. wow, maybe he'll just build a whole set of instances into the game and pretend its "one universe" - like we used to do with multiuser games 10-20 years ago? Because sure as *** ***** there aint NO MACHINE can run those modules all together. So Im very interested to see what happens - and as we go along, I hear the PR, but I dont think its a Bible at all. Lets hope it works out.

On the other hand - stuff that BI and DayZ team tell me, I can trust that Really A Lot.. because over a time I've seen they are human beings working on a project, and I have not ONCE heard anyone from BI seriously try to bullshit me AT ALL, ever..;

 

BI is a bit of an unusual company in a world full of games companies that are 90% all the same. You might like their style or prefer some other style.

Maybe they SHOULD do full-color progress charts online plus a totally sexy flash-action website with a monthly high-expense professional video announcement, it would be a laugh

 

xx

Edited October 23, 2015 by pilgrim

[reapers239 57]

well its been awhile since i last posted but i have been lurking here, in the hopes of..... something.  Which so far its been the same circle it seems. Add stuff, didnt work/created bugs remove stuff and so on. Back when it came out i told people to be patient and wait and see. That has come and gone, Love the concept still and once i move back to the US at the start of the next month and get a nice pc i am getting arma3 and slapping the exile mod.  

 

Like the OP said, and others Dayz started and showed how early access can make something happened, i also got H1Z1 and ark both newer then dayz yet way far ahead. It is sad really, there is no point in playing this game....

Edited October 23, 2015 by reapers239

[Valdenburg 200]

Hey, after months of poor performance, I did some PC maintenance and upgraded to an SSD for system and applications, and my DayZ quality has tripled.  One of the reasons that I never really bitched about the poor performance in the past, was that I could not be 100% sure that the performance issues weren't my fault.  After recently having confirmed my past technical negligence as the cause of my crappy framerate, I have even less sympathy for the moaning masses.

 

People seem to have a hard time grasping the concept of a major engine overhaul on a "moving vehicle" being nothing short of a miraculous task.  People have made dozens of analogies to explain this concept in the past.  Certain things just cannot get fixed or added into the game until the major elements supporting them are finished and integrated into the engine.  Kinda like when downloading a fairly large program, it takes the longest time to get all of the installation software, and related bits onto the computer, but once they are there, everything else just falls into place in seconds.  We are very near that precipice, and the information supporting that can be found on these forums; all one has to do is read (and understand) it.

The best PC can't prevent the network issues that currently kill people walking on flat surfaces for example...

[emuthreat 2837]

The best PC can't prevent the network issues that currently kill people walking on flat surfaces for example...

I don't know why, but I have only died twice from getting displaced and dropped, and only once by random should-not-have-gone-up-into-ATC bug; and haven't had a problem like that since before .58.  I'm not denying that it happens, but I do wonder what the reason for that is.

[Valdenburg 200]

I'm not denying that it happens, but I do wonder what the reason for that is.

My guess is network issues, the server and client are not synced right then things like this happen.

[q.S Sachiel 470]

I  don't know, it could be a clipping issue too.  In ARMA3, if you try wedging yourself between a connifer and a rock, the game makes you do a jittery dance then propels you into the sky.

Strange things in games.

[Sperglord 76]

It might be your level of understanding and perspective that leads to those disastrous results.  The game is perfectly playable as-is, and it's a great time to learn the ropes because the Zeds are on vacation.  

Oh, so now we went from "It's alpha they will fix it" to "It's perfectly playable no need to fix"

 

What next? 

Edited October 25, 2015 by Sperglord

[emuthreat 2837]

Oh, so now we went from "It's alpha they will fix it" to "It's perfectly playable no need to fix"

 

What next? 

You added in the "no need to fix it" part.  I've been playing the game. Stuff works, some of it sucks, but you can still play and have a good time.  The infected are coming back on this next update. They will make the game more playable, as well as more broken.  Its a paradox, but the game is playable--while they are fixing it.

[Noctoras 409]

I can only agree with the earlier mentioned sentiments, DayZ has gone from being a game I actually want to be involved in, to being a dead game as far as I am concerned. A great idea, but as far as I am concerned, DayZ will never truly be the game that we were promised. After +1000 hours, I can safely say I will not bother with this game anymore, just as I don't bother with Nether. Plenty of other games have far outdone what DayZ set out to do, in less time, as well.

 

Generally speaking, I am in the same boat. Pondering on whether giving it up entirely. Passed my exams, had a wonderful vacation, so maybe this break should become a quit. There are good alternatives out there, as pointed out multiple times. Time will tell, if a return to dayZ makes sense one day.

[ColdAtrophy 1850]

I understand it is more exciting to build a new renderer on your own than to do other coding tasks, but was it really necessary for this game, why o why just don't use/license an existing one and use this effort for other issues? ( or is this just bi-studio politics?  )

 

I didn't read every post in this thread so forgive me if someone else has already mentioned this, but I felt the need to set the record straight here.

 

Creating a new renderer is not a particularly difficult or even time consuming thing to do. Even if they had licensed a piece of software to do what they wanted the new renderer to do, they would have been presented with exactly the same problems that were holding them back with this one. The thing that has been holding up the process is that the old renderer is/was a pain in the ass to remove. As I recall, the old renderer was linked with the physics system (which is also slowly being redone) and the simulation rate of the entire engine in such a way that it was not a simple swap and replace type of issue.

 

I apologize for this, but I love analogies. Changing a tire on a car is not difficult. I'm certain that a 10 year old could be easily taught how to do it properly. But this isn't that simple. If it was, it would've been done months ago. Now instead imagine swapping out the motor on a brand new 2015 car for a motor that was never shipped from factory in that vehicle. So, like trying to swap, say, a Ford 302 in a Mustang out for a 6.0L Hemi. Oh, and you had to build the Hemi yourself starting with just a bare block. And then imagine that a few thousand people are asking you multiple times per day how long it's gonna take and you know from experience that every single time you try to accomplish the next step, something else comes up. Like the security system in the car is freaking out because it was not designed to work with an engine, sensors, and wiring harness from a totally different manufacturer. Or the engine mounts don't match up and you had to borrow someone else's cherry picker who desperately needs it back. And the guy you have helping you needs to eat and sleep. The prick. Oh, and then when it's all finally said and done, you have to make sure that this can process can be replicated in thousands of other unique vehicles without a problem because if someone else puts the Hemi you built into their vehicle and it doesn't work perfectly, they will go fucking ballistic to put it mildly.

 

So you seem to think that putting in the new renderer could have been a simple swap, but the fact of the matter is that the issue was never creating the renderer. That was probably done 6 or 8 months ago. Perhaps longer even. The real problem is ripping out the old one and not only not losing quality but also gaining performance.

[micalo 13]

I didn't read every post in this thread so forgive me if someone else has already mentioned this, but I felt the need to set the record straight here.

 

Creating a new renderer is not a particularly difficult or even time consuming thing to do. Even if they had licensed a piece of software to do what they wanted the new renderer to do, they would have been presented with exactly the same problems that were holding them back with this one. The thing that has been holding up the process is that the old renderer is/was a pain in the ass to remove. As I recall, the old renderer was linked with the physics system (which is also slowly being redone) and the simulation rate of the entire engine in such a way that it was not a simple swap and replace type of issue.

 

I apologize for this, but I love analogies. Changing a tire on a car is not difficult. I'm certain that a 10 year old could be easily taught how to do it properly. But this isn't that simple. If it was, it would've been done months ago. Now instead imagine swapping out the motor on a brand new 2015 car for a motor that was never shipped from factory in that vehicle. So, like trying to swap, say, a Ford 302 in a Mustang out for a 6.0L Hemi. Oh, and you had to build the Hemi yourself starting with just a bare block. And then imagine that a few thousand people are asking you multiple times per day how long it's gonna take and you know from experience that every single time you try to accomplish the next step, something else comes up. Like the security system in the car is freaking out because it was not designed to work with an engine, sensors, and wiring harness from a totally different manufacturer. Or the engine mounts don't match up and you had to borrow someone else's cherry picker who desperately needs it back. And the guy you have helping you needs to eat and sleep. The prick. Oh, and then when it's all finally said and done, you have to make sure that this can process can be replicated in thousands of other unique vehicles without a problem because if someone else puts the Hemi you built into their vehicle and it doesn't work perfectly, they will go fucking ballistic to put it mildly.

 

So you seem to think that putting in the new renderer could have been a simple swap, but the fact of the matter is that the issue was never creating the renderer. That was probably done 6 or 8 months ago. Perhaps longer even. The real problem is ripping out the old one and not only not losing quality but also gaining performance.

 

actually you are the first refering to this :)

 

I would say: creating some renderer is not particularly difficult or time consuming - but creating an efficient one, more performant than the existing, is another thing.

moreover: it is software development, the newly written and never tested component will have new problems.

 

To refer to your analogy: If you want to build a car, and you start to manufacture complex components like the motor yourself, you will never finish.

There is a reason why designing new motors is not done in every garage around the corner, but by companies with a lot of experience.

And you have to be aware of what is your core compentence, and what you want to achieve (at least the customers supporting your project assume this is a running car, and not new motor)

 

so maybe you should analyse what your requirements for the car are, and then select the best matching motor.

 

yes, you will have to do adjustments, maybe it will not be easy - you struggle with that tube located at this f.. place where it does not fit in your system.

But probably there was a reason to put it there, and designing your own motor to fit your car leads to the same problems the old car had to struggle with.

 

I don't say swapping the renderer is a simple task and quickly acomplished - but I just don't see how building a new renderer helps in this regard

[VIPEREYE1 17]

I think the biggest concern we need to have is the announcement of beta in the latest SR, This shook me up a bit because i had thought that they were going to extend development because a few things on the road map have not been completed, However i have no idea how up to date the *INTERNAL* build is. Let's just hope they are able to add all of those promised features in.

[ColdAtrophy 1850]

I don't say swapping the renderer is a simple task and quickly acomplished - but I just don't see how building a new renderer helps in this regard

 

The rest of your post is gibberish and it doesn't come to bear on the topic at hand. You missed my point completely. You do infer that purchasing a new renderer would be worth the money. It is not since creating the new renderer is not the hard part. Licensing happens when the cost vs the time saved and level of difficulty avoided reveal a beneficial transaction for the company doing the licensing. You do not often see devs license something small and specific like a renderer in their own in-house engines for that reason. Even if they had licensed a new renderer, they would still have the same problems that they had now in that extracting the old renderer is and has been the problem that is causing the hold up.

 

You can argue with me if you want, but you are objectively wrong. I'm sorry but that's a solid fact.

Edited October 29, 2015 by ColdAtrophy

[emuthreat 2837]

(snip ) Even if they had licensed a new renderer, they would still have the same problems that they had now in that extracting the old renderer is and has been the problem that is causing the hold up.

 

(snip)

They sure have been decoupling for quite some time now.  Fingers crossed that they have done enough internal testing to rule-out the possibility of it breaking the game in a very serious way, once it is pushed to stable.

[micalo 13]

The rest of your post is gibberish ...

first, the fact you disagree with something does not make it gibberish, trying to win an argument doing so does not help the discussion.

 

second, analogies can be helpful, but it is easy to get carried away just for the sake of applying an analogy.

 

But let's hope you are right and this work was finished a couple of months ago, and even more: that we see soon something of it!

[ColdAtrophy 1850]

first, the fact you disagree with something does not make it gibberish, trying to win an argument doing so does not help the discussion.

 

second, analogies can be helpful, but it is easy to get carried away just for the sake of applying an analogy.

 

But let's hope you are right and this work was finished a couple of months ago, and even more: that we see soon something of it!

 

Would you like me to point out all the reasons why I felt it was gibberish? Why it didn't actually apply and/or made no sense whatsoever? I can do that if you like, but I feel like it is sufficient to say that if you had understood what I was getting at, you wouldn't have followed up with statements that are not only untrue but make no sense in the context of the analogy like: "If you want to build a car, and you start to manufacture complex components like the motor yourself, you will never finish." Also, you said this: "There is a reason why designing new motors is not done in every garage around the corner, but by companies with a lot of experience.", which has nothing to do with what we are talking about. We aren't talking about Bohemia redesigning the way rendering is handled by an engine. We are talking about them building a newer version of something that their programmers already know how to do.

 

Don't take my word for it though. Allow Hicks to break it down for you: https://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/226553-status-report-30-jun-2015/

 

EDIt: I shouldn't have used the word "gibberish" initially. I was slightly annoyed and I realize that obviously you would take offense to that. I apologize for that. 

Edited October 29, 2015 by ColdAtrophy