Suicide repercussions...

[eno 1049]

I've been playing a little more passively lately- watching from a distance to see what people are up to. Particularly in Svet- obviously not "THE PLACE" everyone wants to be. 

 

But I've been really surprised at the sheer number of suicides that occur there- probably more than half the people I see in Svet run up the cranes, the hospital or the industrial building and jump off. 

 

I know they're wanting to respawn somewhere else for whatever reason- to be closer to their buddies or better loot... whatever the case may be. Heck- I do get it... I've done the same thing. Main reason is because it's relatively easy to do and there is no punishment or drawback. 

 

I'm not sure what the devs' intentions are with that whole concept and the spawning process. Is suicide always going to be without repercussions? Just a quick jump off a building and a 20-60 second wait for a new body? Is that capturing the essence of the game as it intends to be or is this just a place holder for a more elaborate system? 

 

A part of me would hate it... but one thing I've been mulling around that I know would stop me from committing suicide would be in the event of a suicide (using the suicide key) or a death by falling in general you end up respawning in the same place you originally spawned with that character.

 

Possible drawback might be that people who are unhealthy or wounded could just go back to their spawn point and kill themselves (if they're close enough to do so)- then come back with a fresh body and take their loot back. A few stars would have to be in alignment for that to be possible- but I suppose it could happen. 

 

Another option would be a longer respawn period... something long enough to make suicide less desirable. 

 

Kind of like shooting... people do it because there are no repercussions. Your hearing isn't affected... there's no massive zombie horde that races at you... no sense of guilt or loss... Hence oodles of people shoot first and ask questions later. It's a play style that I think has emerged as a way of passing the time moreso than what the game intended to be. Make it harder on people who pull the trigger- maybe people will shoot less often and when their lives depend on it instead of when boredom creeps up.

 

Suicide is the same- and it seems odd to me that a game based on survival is set up in such a way to make killing yourself so easy and even rewarding. 

 

This is my opinion anyway... what's yours?

 

 

 

 

[Parazight 1599]

Game cannot differentiate between suicide off of a building and accidentally falling off.  You'll just end up punishing the 'innocent' unfairly.

 

IMO, no need to punish a new spawn.  Solution lies with persistence + CLE.

[grimlok 77]

There is something about this in the suggestions forum and my thoughts on it are pretty simple.  For every suicide after the first one and within 5 minutes of the suicide, add a 30 second timer.  

 

So you hate your spawn, you kill yourself to get a better one, cool 30 seconds, spawn in and hate it again so you kill yourself, now it's a one minute spawn timer and so forth.  Or you could wait 5 mins for the timer to reset back to 30 seconds.  This will easily prevent the suicide'ing for a better spawn.

[eno 1049]

 

Game cannot differentiate between suicide off of a building and accidentally falling off.  You'll just end up punishing the 'innocent' unfairly.

 

IMO, no need to punish a new spawn.  Solution lies with persistence + CLE.

 

 

Yeah- the fall thing is tricky since like you said people do "fall" accidentally if they miss a ladder or whathaveyou. But then again, respawning in the place you started after that kind of event isn't necessarily a bad thing- while if you're just jumping to respawn elsewhere it would be. 

 

 

There is something about this in the suggestions forum and my thoughts on it are pretty simple.  For every suicide after the first one and within 5 minutes of the suicide, add a 30 second timer.  

 

So you hate your spawn, you kill yourself to get a better one, cool 30 seconds, spawn in and hate it again so you kill yourself, now it's a one minute spawn timer and so forth.  Or you could wait 5 mins for the timer to reset back to 30 seconds.  This will easily prevent the suicide'ing for a better spawn.

 

I thought about putting this in suggestions but thought I'd initiate some discussion on it here so that I could formulate a more appropriate suggestion. 

Edited July 13, 2015 by ENO75

[hekatoncheyr 7]

simple solution a timer of time of death after spawn

 

Die within x minutes of spawning, from something other than zombie or player interaction, you get the same spawn. 

 

I would add to that

 

-  x = the time it takes from spawn to death from starvation if no food is found minus 1 minute

-  If no other player is within a certain distance from the body at the time of death, it auto hides

[schwaBAM 200]

I agree that there should be a harsher penalty for suicides.  30 seconds seems too lenient to me though..

 

Maybe start the (first offense) timer at a 30 second longer spawn

If it is done again within so many minutes, make it 2 minutes longer than the first

If again, double the timer, etc

 

I'm also hopeful that the game play will change once more zeds/infected are put in and there are also consequences for shooting your gun at another player.  If done so in certain areas, a horde of zombies will head in your direction.  I wouldn't necessarily want the zombies to be stronger, but more of them would be fun.  The only other issue is that people with less capable hardware will suffer with more zeds on screen.  Also, limiting ammo might help in this case too, helping more people to play the hero role to help others.

[Killawife 599]

There was a post regarding this exact issue a few months back. What was concluded was that as the game is kinda broken in many ways there is no way to safeguard this. But once its done and there is no possibility of death due to bugs it might be possible to do something about it.

My suggestion was that the player would be given a choice about where to spawn, not an exact place but a suggested area like north, south, west, east, center. That way there would be no need for suicides at all. People who want to play with their friends or revenge their death can do so. Some people argued against this as people so easily could get to their corpse but I dont see this as an issue at all. People who play in squads already have the advantage of holding on to a dead players gear so why should it matter? I would actually prefer it if corpses stay on the map, with their loot, until the server restarts and not just for ten minutes. Even if I don't mind the looting and gearing up part, I do think that finding a dead body with gear on it is a really fun thing in the game. It helps you but also makes for tension, as that guy didn't end up there dead for no reason.

 

Another solution could be an extended respawn timer for suicides.

[frosti 2165]

There was a post regarding this exact issue a few months back. What was concluded was that as the game is kinda broken in many ways there is no way to safeguard this. But once its done and there is no possibility of death due to bugs it might be possible to do something about it.

My suggestion was that the player would be given a choice about where to spawn, not an exact place but a suggested area like north, south, west, east, center. That way there would be no need for suicides at all. People who want to play with their friends or revenge their death can do so. Some people argued against this as people so easily could get to their corpse but I dont see this as an issue at all. People who play in squads already have the advantage of holding on to a dead players gear so why should it matter? I would actually prefer it if corpses stay on the map, with their loot, until the server restarts and not just for ten minutes. Even if I don't mind the looting and gearing up part, I do think that finding a dead body with gear on it is a really fun thing in the game. It helps you but also makes for tension, as that guy didn't end up there dead for no reason.

 

Another solution could be an extended respawn timer for suicides.

 

I played on DayZ mod server with such spawn system and it resulted in DayZ looking like another Call of Duty clone.

So I am aganist players being able to choose their spawn locations in any form.

 

Increased respawn timer on other hand sound very good.

[eno 1049]

I played on DayZ mod server with such spawn system and it resulted in DayZ looking like another Call of Duty clone.

So I am aganist players being able to choose their spawn locations in any form.

 

Increased respawn timer on other hand sound very good.

 

Not wanting to sound sarcastic when I ask this- but when you say a COD clone... what do you mean? Just from the pvp aspect of it or something else? 

 

As the game in general shifts gears towards something more representative of a finished concept that makes pvp less prevalent, do you think that it would still suffer the same end? 

[frosti 2165]

Not wanting to sound sarcastic when I ask this- but when you say a COD clone... what do you mean? Just from the pvp aspect of it or something else? 

 

 

PvP aspect. Revenge kills.

[Killawife 599]

Well I can agree that revenge kills could increase with such a system but thats kinda what most people are doing already. They get killed and then spend most of the night running to where they were killed, or suiciding til they get there. The system I'm suggesting would just save some time and remove the nessecity for suicides. Thats what we were talking about, right?

 

 People work very hard to get their gear back and kill the person who killed them, or as is the case sometimes, find out what killed them. I once killed the same guy four times as he was determined to punch me out over and over. Finally I grew bored of it and dressed his corpse in my gear and logged out.

[Etherimp 1323]

PvP aspect. Revenge kills.

 

 

Gotta agree with Frosti on this one. It's why I avoid the coast - By the time you kill the squad of fully geared assholes camping Elektro/Berezino, 50% of them have already respawned and are regearing off their own dead body, and now you have to kill them again (or they kill you).

 

This basically turns any spawn area into a deathmatch, and it rewards bad play. "You were camping in the firestation with 3 friends in elektro and one of you got sniped? No problem! Just get an Elektro spawn and be back in the action within 5 minutes."

This is why I stick to the Northern/Western areas of the map.. I know for a fact that if I kill someone it will take them between 20 to 40 minutes to get back to their body, and by that time I've already killed all of their friends and either disposed of their gear or taken it for myself. 

 

A few solutions to the spawning could be...

 

1. Progressively longer timer between deaths (as mentioned above).. 30 seconds, 1 minute, 5 minutes, 10 minutes, if the deaths all happen within a ~5 minute time-frame.

 

2. Simply spawn people in the same place if they suicided within 10 minutes of spawning. The game knows whether you died to another player or died on your own. If you fell off a ladder innocently, it actually works for you since it'll give you a chance to get back any gear you lost.

 

3. Temporarily ban ALL players who die for 5 minutes. This stops them from being in the server at all.. In 5 minutes they can relog in and respawn, but it prevents people from running back to their bodies (as bodies will be despawned within 5 minutes.)

[Parazight 1599]

Gotta agree with Frosti on this one. It's why I avoid the coast - By the time you kill the squad of fully geared assholes camping Elektro/Berezino, 50% of them have already respawned and are regearing off their own dead body, and now you have to kill them again (or they kill you).

 

This basically turns any spawn area into a deathmatch, and it rewards bad play. "You were camping in the firestation with 3 friends in elektro and one of you got sniped? No problem! Just get an Elektro spawn and be back in the action within 5 minutes."

This is why I stick to the Northern/Western areas of the map.. I know for a fact that if I kill someone it will take them between 20 to 40 minutes to get back to their body, and by that time I've already killed all of their friends and either disposed of their gear or taken it for myself.

I'm gonna call bullshit on this entire post.

So, you stick to the northern/western areas of the map but somehow you repeatedly kill entire squads over and over on the coast huh?

Rewards bad play? Says you!  Who are you to call it bad play.  Those full servers that you see, that provide invaluable stress testing data, are because organized "asshole" groups make it so.  Go check out some videos.  A majority of them, which BI supports (survivor games anyone), are clans and groups doing exactly what you despise.   How about you go make some videos where you're always wiping out squads over and over.  Those clans are paying, supporting consumers, deal with it.

 

It's not even a game yet.  It's an alpha build and the current environment propagates this type of behavior.

 

You're clearly upset that 'people can run back to their bodies and get all their loot back, even though you constantly murder them'.  Yea.  It's easy to see how your claims would be true when you say you wipe them.  Must really upset you to kill all these 'assholes', huh.

 

This is Dayz

This is my story

In my story, you die.

[frosti 2165]

I'm gonna call bullshit on this entire post.

So, you stick to the northern/western areas of the map but somehow you repeatedly kill entire squads over and over on the coast huh?

Rewards bad play? Says you!  Who are you to call it bad play.  Those full servers that you see, that provide invaluable stress testing data, are because organized "asshole" groups make it so.  Go check out some videos.  A majority of them, which BI supports (survivor games anyone), are clans and groups doing exactly what you despise.   How about you go make some videos where you're always wiping out squads over and over.  Those clans are paying, supporting consumers, deal with it.

 

It's not even a game yet.  It's an alpha build and the current environment propagates this type of behavior.

 

You're clearly upset that 'people can run back to their bodies and get all their loot back, even though you constantly murder them'.  Yea.  It's easy to see how your claims would be true when you say you wipe them.  Must really upset you to kill all these 'assholes', huh.

 

This is Dayz

This is my story

In my story, you die.

 

Well I think DayZ is playground big enought for everyone.

 

Let's limit spawn points to coast only and let people have their revenge kill party in Elektro/Novo/Berezino, and by not allowing west/north spawn points other people can enjoy not having to worry about revenge kills.

[Parazight 1599]

Well I think DayZ is playground big enought for everyone.

 

Let's limit spawn points to coast only and let people have their revenge kill party in Elektro/Novo/Berezino, and by not allowing west/north spawn points other people can enjoy not having to worry about revenge kills.

I agree.  It sure is big enough!   Why bother trying to curb the playstyle of those deathmatch types?  When was the last time anyone saw a clan of assholes camp on a low pop server, in Stary Yar, or whereverthefuck survivors go to do whatever?  Never.

[Grimey Rick 3417]

I agree. It sure is big enough! Why bother trying to curb the playstyle of those deathmatch types? When was the last time anyone saw a clan of assholes camp on a low pop server, in Stary Yar, or whereverthefuck survivors go to do whatever? Never.

I think Imp was referring to NWAF/Veresnik/northern military areas, where people go to PvP anyway. Killing them there is better than killing them on the coast, because on the coast they can quickly suicide respawn, run back to where they died, salvage a gun from their body, and get a cheap revenge kill.

If you're fighting someone in Veresnik and you kill them, they're not getting back to their corpse. That knowledge lets you take your time when you're stalking groups of players, as it should be.

The Lone Wolf playstyle is very effective against groups. I used to partake in organized PvP matches in DayZ when the Standalone was new with four of my friends. We would challenge other clans to 5v5 matches, we'd all hop on TeamSpeak, and we'd mutually agree to a random location to battle in. Long story short, I always sniped and would obviously hang back. The odd times my friends got themselves killed, I found it much easier to kill the remaining three-five people by myself, as I didn't have to worry about shooting my buddies.

I often take out groups of people in DayZ; 90% of DayZ players are terrible, lol. I used to play on the CQF server and would often take out their "patrol squads" they'd send to "protect NEAF" (when it was still worth visiting before the revamp).

Good times.

P.S: CQF and VX9 suck.

[Parazight 1599]

I think Imp was referring to NWAF/Veresnik/northern military areas, where people go to PvP anyway. Killing them there is better than killing them on the coast, because on the coast they can quickly suicide respawn, run back to where they died, salvage a gun from their body, and get a cheap revenge kill.

 

Yessir, so the solution to not getting revenge-killed is to not hang out on high pop servers in Elektro/Bere/Cherno.  Or, rather, fix persistence + CLE. (like I suggested in my first post).  

 

My gripe with Imp's post is that he comes off as some badass that is somehow forced to stay in Elecktro/Berezino and camp assholes and then whines about how he has to kill them all day long.  Not realistic or believable.

 

Why punish suicides when you can avoid the problem created by it entirely?

[Grimey Rick 3417]

Yessir, so the solution to not getting revenge-killed is to not hang out on high pop servers in Elektro/Bere/Cherno. Or, rather, fix persistence + CLE. (like I suggested in my first post).

My gripe with Imp's post is that he comes off as some badass that is somehow forced to stay in Elecktro/Berezino and camp assholes and then whines about how he has to kill them all day long. Not realistic or believable.

Why punish suicides when you can avoid the problem created by it entirely?

I read the post where you mentioned persistence and the central loot economy. I don't understand how that will solve the suicide epidemic, though. It'd keep people more spread out over the map, but if you died in Elektro (for example), it still wouldn't prevent the person you just killed from spawning near you via constant suicides and revenge killing you.

In the finished game, I'd like to see players spawning at least a couple of kilometers from where they were killed. If they commit suicide after spawning, I'd like to see them spawn in the same place. This suicide rule might only last a half hour after respawning. Committing suicide after the initial half hour timer would cause you to spawn somewhere else as per normal.

With a system like this, players could not suicide for their own benefit, and suicide "spamming" would no longer be viable.

Edited July 14, 2015 by Grimey Rick

[☣BioHaze☣ 7337]

One thing that will effect the entire game will be increased infected numbers.

 

I expect to die on the coast to nearly anything come 1.0.

 

Kind of like the mod.

 

You might suicide a bunch, get a spawn you like, and then get killed by infected in your favorite spawn point.

 

So much of how people play is going to change fundamentally.

 

A lot of times I find many points made about the current way the game is played to be irrelevant....

 

Successively longer respawn/rejoin timers would be good for a number of reasons but I think random spawn points are here to stay.

 

Also, hopefully modding will shift the PvP guys away from Vanilla DayZ where the infected will get in their way and those servers will have custom respawn choices.

[Evil Minion 943]

1. Progressively longer timer between deaths (as mentioned above).. 30 seconds, 1 minute, 5 minutes, 10 minutes, if the deaths all happen within a ~5 minute time-frame.

 

2. Simply spawn people in the same place if they suicided within 10 minutes of spawning. The game knows whether you died to another player or died on your own. If you fell off a ladder innocently, it actually works for you since it'll give you a chance to get back any gear you lost.

 

3. Temporarily ban ALL players who die for 5 minutes. This stops them from being in the server at all.. In 5 minutes they can relog in and respawn, but it prevents people from running back to their bodies (as bodies will be despawned within 5 minutes.)

As much as I like the first concept for server hopping (though with much higher numbers and a way - spawning with a new character - to avoid them) I don't think it would work all that well if the numbers are too high (as in "high enough to make walking more viable in comparison"). Though it might help to add some annoyance to death (thus making it more of a "bad thing" to happen to you) and greatly help slowing down spawn suiciding as well as making it harder to reclaim your stuff.

 

The second is actually what I had in mind but I think it requires two additional features:

1. Players should tend to spawn far away from their corpses when not classified as freshspawn (otherwise you could just keep running at your corpse).
2. Players should tend to spawn away from other players (to reduce the amount of spawnkilling).

Now players should not spawn exactly where they did spawn before but rather in a small area around the place.

 

The last seems to be okay at first glance but it might actually run into heavy conflicts with server hopping prevention and group play. Though it might be interesting as server option for private hives.

[Parazight 1599]

I read the post where you mentioned persistence and the central loot economy. I don't understand how that will solve the suicide epidemic, though. It'd keep people more spread out over the map, but if you died in Elektro (for example), it still wouldn't prevent the person you just killed from spawning near you via constant suicides and revenge killing you.

In the finished game, I'd like to see players spawning at least a couple of kilometers from where they were killed. If they commit suicide after spawning, I'd like to see them spawn in the same place. This suicide rule might only last a half hour after respawning. Committing suicide after the initial half hour timer would cause you to spawn somewhere else as per normal.

With a system like this, players could not suicide for their own benefit, and suicide "spamming" would no longer be viable.

I like the idea of spawning in the same place until after a certain amount of time, though I'm not sure if the game could ever distinguish intent (suicide) and dying legitimately. 

 

The thought with persistence + CLE is that groups wouldn't stake out Berezino, Elektro, et cetera because the geared enemies wouldn't be there.  Thus, hotspots would move to zone4.  Also, coastal towns wouldn't be a natural place to meet up as there wouldn't be 5 guard houses stacked full of AKs and military gear.  So, revenge killing wouldn't be an option, due to how the game is set and controls player movement.  

 

I'll add that I don't subscribe to the idea that killing a player is okay while revenge killing is not.  Being the victim of a revenge kill is 100% avoidable.  If you get revenge-killed, you did something wrong.

 

One thing that will effect the entire game will be increased infected numbers.

I lol'd!

Only bads will ever die to infected.  They wont affect anything.

Edited July 14, 2015 by Parazight

[Grimey Rick 3417]

I like the idea of spawning in the same place until after a certain amount of time, though I'm not sure if the game could ever distinguish intent (suicide) and dying legitimately. 

 

It wouldn't be able to, I don't think. Worst case scenario, if one was to fall off a ladder/building within the timer, it would allow one to quickly gather up the loot one had acquired since spawning shortly beforehand. If anything, it'd be a crutch to new players, I guess.

 

The timer could also be reduced to, say, fifteen minutes. Now that I'm thinking about it a bit more, thirty minutes might be excessive. Fifteen minutes is still enough time to discourage people from suicide "spamming", and would be more lenient to "accidental" deaths.

 

[frosti 2165]

 

I lol'd!

Only bads will ever die to infected.  They wont affect anything.

 

But imagine the world where players do not have unlimited stamine but zombies does have unlimited stamina. And can tackle players.

[eno 1049]

Hoping someone has some insights on the actual planned concept at all?

I agree with up to 15 minutes of sitting in the corner during a suicide or fall related death and also with the sliding scale based on number of attempts.

One other slightly related concept is the absence of any benefit for your character surviving other than your gear- which people generally kill you for. Those concepts work against one another.

If there were more internal perks- enhanced vision, better hearing, better speed or endurance or both. A beard (no benefit other than a bragging right for the male characters. The women could... Uh... Boast hairy armpits?)

Perks that people can't kill you to steal.

The reason I connect the two is if people are more attached to their character than their gear the aspect of pvp may be less desirable and living more rewarding.

Edited July 14, 2015 by ENO75

[Parazight 1599]

But imagine the world where players do not have unlimited stamine but zombies does have unlimited stamina. And can tackle players.

Imagine an impossible-to-make-game where AI code will outsmart the human brain.  Now that is a reason to suicide!   :P

 

 

More:  Maybe your player should receive a stacking debuff based on the number of recent deaths.  For example, if you just respawned, you get a 7 minute penalty that applied -10% to your current run speed.

Edited July 14, 2015 by Parazight