How to make .22 long-range sniping impossible/unviable?

[Sister Ray 41]

As seen in this Wobo's hunting scope guide, it's currently possible to make accurate 800m shots with the Sporter and the Trumpet. The Sporter is perhaps my favourite weapon, even more so now, in .57, when I can finally attach a scope into it. Still, it feels really cheap being able to make those accurate 800m shots with it, which should realistically be close to impossible, because of the lost accuracy on long range and the trajectory of the bullet.

 

If I understand right, when zeroed to 800m the zeroing mechanics send the bullet in the air like a mortar would. I think the best way to counter this (until/if we get better zeroing mechanics in the future) would be just to make .22 weapons with scope only be able to be zeroed to 200-300m. I know it's still possible to make longer distance shots by aiming above the target, but as far as I know, the bullet trajectory of .22 is currently fairly realistically simulated, meaning a fast drop of the bullet. This would mean that in order to hit a target beyond 300-400m, you should be aiming at the sun or something like that. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

This seems like a quick fix, but come to think of it, I'm not entirely sure if it's really that simple. Is there a possibility to alter the properties of hunting scope used with a certain weapon, or would changing the range you can zero the scope to affect it's function with all the weapons, as in making all the weapons only zeroable to 300m with the hunting scope?

 

 

Also, perhaps the devs have already figured this out and ready to implement the changes in the next exp update. We'll see...

[Red_Ensign 990]

why would you expect a .22 to not drop a lot at range?  it's a tiny tiny projectile without much momentum.  you'd have to correct a huge amount for wind too, if that was a thing in the game.

 

to have a flatter trajectory you either need a heavier projectile or a lot more power behind it, preferably both.

[Sister Ray 41]

why would you expect a .22 to not drop a lot at range?  it's a tiny tiny projectile without much momentum.  you'd have to correct a huge amount for wind too, if that was a thing in the game.

 

to have a flatter trajectory you either need a heavier projectile or a lot more power behind it, preferably both.

Well, you should re-read my suggestion. I was saying that currently you can make unrealistic 800m shots with .22, and that you shouldn't be able to make those. I also suggested a way how to make those longe-range shots impossible. Currenly you can zero sporter w. hunting scope up to 800m. This sends the bullet in the air in a realistically impossible angle so that it hits its target at 800m. To counter this I suggested the scope should only be able to be zeroed up to 200-300m with the sporter.

Edited June 1, 2015 by Sister Ray

[Evil Minion 943]

I think zeroing should work a little different especially with the hunting scope:

• Instead of factoring in the type of bullet used zeroing should always modify the sights by the same amount. This means the actual number would be only accurate for one type of ammunition and mean something else for other types.
• There should be an animation for zeroing that either forces you off sights or at least actually modifies your line of sight so you are now aiming below or above the target (depending on direction).

This way you do not need to reduce the functionality for the hunting scope and sniping with .22 gets harder and does not result in extreme elevations. And to give the humble CR527 a chance the default calibration could match this weapon.

Edited June 1, 2015 by Evil Minion

[pilgrim* 3514]

Got to ask yourself how much energy a .22 bullet would carry at 870 yards

 

IMO for any kind of cartridge the answer is "really not much"

 

say ( .. kind of, depending..) around 10 - 20 j  top ??

 

http://www.federalpremium.com/ballistics_calculator/default.aspx

 

 

EDIT : I may be wrong about this but I read 16 j as around the muzzle energy of a standard legal air rifle ?

So that a .22 rifle could reasonably be expected to cause comparable damage at 800m to a point blank air rifle discharge ?

Edited June 1, 2015 by pilgrim

[BeefBacon 1185]

I think factors like wind will be included down the line. Can't verify that, though.

[-Gews- 7443]

This seems like a quick fix, but come to think of it, I'm not entirely sure if it's really that simple. Is there a possibility to alter the properties of hunting scope used with a certain weapon, or would changing the range you can zero the scope to affect it's function with all the weapons, as in making all the weapons only zeroable to 300m with the hunting scope?

 

Yeah, it's very simple to fix this. Make the zeroing angular, like that scope actually functions in real life, instead of having the scopes magically calculate the drop for different cartridges.

 

On those rifles that scope can launch a bullet at a max angle of 0.35° or 21 MOA. A .22 won't travel very far launched at 0.35° (about 150 meters). A .308 will travel pretty far at the same angle (about 600 meters). When you press PageUp/PageDown it should increase/decrease the launch angle by 1/4 MOA or 0.1 mils. For those who find this too complicated there are things like the ACOG, PU, PSO-1 and Kashtan.

 

My personal opinion is that I would love to see more advanced mechanics involving the guns because it provides more of a basis for 'leveling-up' and makes long-range engagements all the more challenging. However, its a bit hard-core to expect the average person to create range cards and understand ballistics. Having to learn about that stuff would be awesome in the context of a infantry sim - perhaps like ArmA3's marksman DLC but in DayZ - I'm not so sure.

[agouti 105]

My personal opinion is that I would love to see more advanced mechanics involving the guns because it provides more of a basis for 'leveling-up' and makes long-range engagements all the more challenging. However, its a bit hard-core to expect the average person to create range cards and understand ballistics. Having to learn about that stuff would be awesome in the context of a infantry sim - perhaps like ArmA3's marksman DLC but in DayZ - I'm not so sure.

 

 

 

In yon olden times with games, I kept a notebook while playing games, because there was no ingame journals. (Thanks morrowind and deus ex for giving me these, but maybe daggerfall and system shock had them too? I can't recall). I also, for some games, due to the limits of ram which make it so you can't just alt tab and go on dayz db, I purchase maps. For games. Paper maps. The game in question, I had no marker to show where I was, and the maps weren't exact images of the game, but imperfect artists depictions. But hey, you could buy a compass in game (with in game money)!

 

 

Games used to be awesome, what happened? When I played the later elder scrolls games, there was like this magic compass that always pointed me in the right direction. Totally mindless.

 

 

Also, this notion of leveling up makes me froth at the mouth. I hate skills, levels, experience. None of it makes sense, except as an attempt to impartially create a simulacrum of combat in a world with dice, but no personal calculators, much less common computers. This was called the 1970s. I remember the last time I tried skyrim I was in this game and repeatedly stabbed this nord with no shirt in the chest, just for him to beat me with a hammer. I just can't take rpgs with their insane restrictions anymore, except for pen and paper, where my imagination can overcome the stupidity of levels.

 

(This is why you hound the DM. After having our horses worked into a frenzy by some orcs using some kind of stimulant tipped arrows, I demanded to be able to take the poison from the corpses of the orcs, which I promptly did. What the DM didn't see coming, was that at his big planned boss battle, I convinced this magician to use the magic hat item, which spawns a random animal. It created a rhino, I hit it with the stimulant after pointing said rhino to the general direction of the demon on top of a castle, and it charged at it, knocked it off, and both plumeted to their death before anybody could so much as attack it.)

 

Also, I recall in the dayz mod, it was on a tatiana server or something, the tg guys, terrible gaming community by the way, the owner is very arrogant and a bit of a cry baby. Regardless, on their private server, on the small island, they blocked off entrances to this sort of town square surrounded by large buildings, by putting shipping cargo steel boxes in the entrance ways. We just stacked wood, making a primitive stairwell, and proceeded to blow up the helicoptors (which were all topped off with m240s, fals, svds, etc.) save one, which we stole. We were then prompty banned for "exploiting game mechanics".

 

Zeno says no two objects can occupy the same space at the same time, seems to me what I did was entirely logical and plausible. Much more so than literally just about every other object in the game which seems to fade through each other in a bizarre, magical way.

 

My point is this, I hate unnecessary restrictions and unrealistic limits. And games abstain from difficult or complex mechanics because they assume the players are imbeciles. The players should be free to let their imagination run wild in a realistic world that lets players use their imagination in killing. I'd make a range card, and damn it, keep my calculator next to me if necessary. The .22 loses a lot of energy at the range. Is there already friction in the game? I think there is. If not, we need it. Also, how accurate is a stock ruger .22? I know of guys putting crazy stainless receivers on them, or bull barrels, target triggers, etc., but what is the stock accuracy? It seems to me if you set the dispersion to realistically be that of a ruger .22, it shouldn't be able to hit anything at 800 yards, but maybe 200 or 300. Not sure how much oomph it would have at that range. However, I should still be able to set it for 800 yards (not some magic auto adjust, but firing it and adjusting accordingly) if I feel so inclined. Maybe the necessary angle required by the scope isn't possible. But Maybe you could create an elevated off center mount? Just thinking aloud here. It's the zombie apocalypse, who do I have to answer to?

 

It's funny how scopes work in this game. They're automatically sighted in, and the same scope mount used in like 4 different guns, only has the scope work on one of the guns. (the PSO rail) At least we got something for the dovetail rails, eh? And they work on multiple calibers (I mean, they're sighted in properly, and can be adjusted properly), and even the same caliber on different barrel lengths, which also should have dramatic fps differences. NOPE. MAGIC SCOPE.

Edited June 2, 2015 by agouti

[Sister Ray 41]

Yeah, it's very simple to fix this. Make the zeroing angular, like that scope actually functions in real life, instead of having the scopes magically calculate the drop for different cartridges.

 

On those rifles that scope can launch a bullet at a max angle of 0.35° or 21 MOA. A .22 won't travel very far launched at 0.35° (about 150 meters). A .308 will travel pretty far at the same angle (about 600 meters). When you press PageUp/PageDown it should increase/decrease the launch angle by 1/4 MOA or 0.1 mils. For those who find this too complicated there are things like the ACOG, PU, PSO-1 and Kashtan.

 

Yeah, I've also been waiting for a more realistic way to zero our scopes. I was also pretty sure that we'll get one some day, but your Scubaman3d quote makes me a bit scared, actually. Why does it have to be only viable in the context of an infantry sim when we're talking about mostly civilian scopes? As you said, there are easier scopes to play with if you can't be bothered to learn how to zero your hunting scope properly. Ironsights are simple and straightforward too. This is excactly the kind of a mechanic that would bring some skill into the table without forcing any grindy, lame, mmorpgish skill systems into the game (I agree 100% with agouti on this one). Why not add some helpful ingame books, such as a manual for the hunting scope? This way, the only thing standing between succesfull sniping and you would just be your willingness to learn. I really hope the devs give some second thoughts to this. Thankfully Dayz will have mod support in 1.0 so that even if the devs decide to stick to the old zeroing system, we can still have our way :)

 

 

My op suggestion is simplified, because I'm fairly sure that rehashing the zeroing mechanics isn't that much of a priority in this stage of developement when the current mechanics are working at least ok:ish (not gamebreaking). Just changing the max range of zeroing seems like a simple placeholder system to implement. Because I feel that we really need something to nerf the sporter range at this point. Sporter is so op right now. That would be ok, if it was realistically op, but it's not. Lack of range (along with low stopping power) is basically the only drawback that the Sporter should realistically have.

 

Mark my words people, if .57 hits stable with .22 weapons still zeroable to 800m, we'll all be drenched in silent, fast semi-auto fire from 800m away, and die oh so many times without any idea where it came from. If the people catch onto the op:ness of the Sporter, that is.

 

An afterthought: Perhaps the best way to save ourselves from 800m Sporter sniping is standing under a roof, so that the bullet hits the roof above us when it drops from the sky :D

Edited June 1, 2015 by Sister Ray

[Sister Ray 41]

Got to ask yourself how much energy a .22 bullet would carry at 870 yards

 

IMO for any kind of cartridge the answer is "really not much"

 

say ( .. kind of, depending..) around 10 - 20 j  top ??

 

http://www.federalpremium.com/ballistics_calculator/default.aspx

 

 

EDIT : I may be wrong about this but I read 16 j as around the muzzle energy of a standard legal air rifle ?

So that a .22 rifle could reasonably be expected to cause comparable damage at 800m to a point blank air rifle discharge ?

Yeah, I'm hoping that the decrease in energy over range would also be simulated some way in the future. No idea how hard it would be to implement, though...

[-Gews- 7443]

Yeah, I'm hoping that the decrease in energy over range would also be simulated some way in the future. No idea how hard it would be to implement, though...

 

Unless they altered the system this is already a thing, it would retain around 1/5 its damage at 800 meters.

[gibonez 3633]

Get rid of 100m zeroing instead give scopes a maximum mil value and zero with mils.

That way a win 70 zeroed to say 30 mils will reach out to 1200m meanwhile a 22lr will barely reach 400

[OrLoK 16185]

Hello there

 

Chris T the DAYZ art head honch posted this the other day "FYI, scopes now ignore the FOV slider in #dayz. I cried a tear of joy when it got fixed. Now to make a mildot reticle..."

 

I think things will get a lot better, it might not be 100pc realism but I bet using a weapon in later stages of DAYZ will feel more realistic than most other games.

 

Dont forget we have a long way to go and that includes ballistics etc.

 

Regardless, all constructive critique *is* welcomed but dont assume anything is set in stone.

 

Rgds

 

LoK

[HomerJay27 69]

I also watched WOBO's guide and these two videos came imedialtly to my mind:

 

 

[atempleton 123]

A .22 Long Rifle projectile has a maximum range of 1500m. It can certainly be fired accurately out to 400m and still be lethal. The projectile will just fly slow so it'll be damn impossible to snipe a player with a .22 at long range unless they're dead still and the zeroing is perfect.

[rickenbacker 190]

I imagine you could probably hit stuff at 800m with a .22. Provided the "stuff" you're trying to hit is a moderately sized house... 

[Evil Minion 943]

What makes weapons in DayZ so damn accurate is attachments like scopes decreasing their dispersion values. Other than that dispersion is not that far off:

• 0.006 rad ~20 MOA -> hits reliably* up to ~75m (handguns)
• 0.003 rad ~10 MOA -> hits reliably up to ~150m (submachine guns, Obrez)
• 0.002 rad ~7 MOA -> hits reliably up to ~225m (Longhorn, AK-74**, VSS)
• 0.0015 rad ~5 MOA -> hits reliably up to ~300m (assault rifles**, hunting carbines***)
• 0.001 rad  ~3.5 MOA -> hits reliably up to ~450m (hunting rifles)
• 0.0005 rad ~1.7 MOA -> hits reliably up to ~900m (SVD)

Now adding attachments warps it around pretty heavily. For example the hunting scope increases the effective range of a weapon by 20-33% not even counting the magnification and improved zeroing. Having a handguard and buttstock on your assault rifle increases effective range by 15-25% (only attachments, fixed handguards/buttstock do not give you any benefit). Both buttstocks and scopes also reduce recoil (makes more sense but not if you realize that the hunting scope halves recoil).

 

So basically the Hunting Scope gives every weapon it is attached to a pretty significant hidden powerup.

 

* 45cm static target ignoring any sway and human error.

** In my opinion AKM and AK-74 should swap dispersion values as a major point in introducing the latter is increased accuracy.

*** CR527, Sporter, Trumpet, SKS

Edited June 12, 2015 by Evil Minion