First person emptiness?

[ASTINvlogs 44]

Yeah exploit. It's a design flaw shared by many games featuring third person view that does give people who are using the third person camera an unfair advanatge they should not have. It does not help that it warps gameplay away from an immersive, authentic and enjoyable way to "who exploits the asymmetrical vision the most".

 

(((((((((Sure the game is designed as a first/third person))))))))))game but in reality enabling third person makes it a third person game as it just gives you more information. It is not a matter of preference anymore - to make it a true first/third person game you should not get that information regardless of your chosen perspective. In fact the sole reason why there are first person servers is them serving as a refuge for people who really care about gameplay that doesn't revolve around a periscope game. Fix the third person view and there is no reason to split the playerbase anymore.

Your point is invalid. Reason is above. ^

Plus, no player has an advantage. We're all equal in all servers. ( assuming you're not a hacker )

[GaryWalnuts 1680]

Unfair advantage in two ways: First it's unfair towards people who prefer the first person perspective.

 

This is what I don't understand.  Why are you going on 3PP servers at all when there 1PP servers all over the place?  I truly don't understand this.  

[deadjuice 64]

Loot is weird, and can't ever find anyone. It's ridiculous running along the coast for another finding no one on a 50 man server. 

The new loot system (CLE) isn't in effect yet, but the loot spawns have been changed up. (no more guns under the blue/green trailer hitch, but I've found several in the long sheds with open ends on each side).

This loot change-up happens occasionally. It is a very good thing, because people do not get too comfortable with loot routes.

You'll have to head north first thing upon spawning. You should do this anyway, leave the food and items on the coast for the newbs. Also, you'll most likely run into those missing 50 people up there. 

[deadjuice 64]

My friends that play prefer 1PP, and instead of complaining about it, they just keep the camera in 1PP, even on 3PP/1PP servers. They feel more comfortable with it, they shoot better in it, feel more immersed, etc. 
I like both views for most games. With 3PP, you have the increased spatial awareness, you can see your cool looking/dumb looking guy (I like that in 3PP, you're immersed more in a particular character's experience, rather than solely your own), you can navigate through towns better, or see possible locations better when running up north through the woods. I like it for that.

 

I don't like it in combat though. It doesn't feel right with this type of game. It can be helpful for moving around, hiding in a bush, or retreating, but 1PP adds a proper penalty to these actions. Overall, as a survival simulator, the game just feels right in 1PP.

When my 3PP character dies, I'll be moving over to a solely 1PP server again. But that'll most likely never happen, seeing as how 3PP is an exploit that makes me godlike, and gives me such a massive unfair advantage, that I am pretty much invincible. 


 

[Pandema 352]

It's not feature 

 

 

As written above by peeking you exploit a feature 

 

Well, is it a feature or is it not? Make up your mind.

 

 

Hint, it's a feature. Just one you don't like

[too-easy 56]

MEANWHILE IN ONTOPIC LAND:

for too-easy:

I too disliked the 1pp movement, especially when running. I believe there is a check-box that lets you turn this off if you prefer to play in 1pp and want to disable it, though i haven't done this myself and have learned to love the shake. Just don't tell anyone you've done it for fear of gaining a clearer picture that lets you see people easier when moving about, and being branded scum of the earth.

/quip.

Hehe.

I don't just dislike the movements, I literally get sick of it.

It wasn't like this from the beginning, but maybe they changed a few things and then one day when I played on a 1pp server, i had to stop after 10 minutes to prevent throwing up.

I deactivated the head bobbing, but that didn't help, so I will try the FOV slider.

[Rammur 59]

Either way a majority of players like their 3pp and the dead 1pp servers are proof of that.Cant really restrict the game to 1pp though hell even the private shards like their 3pp.

[DocWolf 146]

What perspective do you guys play on and why?

Mostly 3rd person...some of the reasons (pictured not in order of importance) are: because I want to see my character (yeah, who cares if you don't believe it), because DayZ first person is awful (really weird field of view, virtual eyes positioned in the middle of the neck and so on), because third person lets you see the scenery from different angles.

The two more important are, however, the weirdness factor of the PoV and the scenery porn: at the moment I feel DayZ has a lot of potential, but it's rather dull. I play 3rd person because I really can't stand to play a potentially good but at the moment frustrating game with a weird perspective and with a camera setting that limits the only thing that is truly amazing: scenery.

 

INB4 people say 3rd cause they wanna see their character. Let's be real here, nobody is falling for it. You can see your character in the tab screen.

No offence, but third person perspectives in games has been created exactly because a lot of gamers like watching their characters do stuff. In DayZ it could be used to gain an advantage (not an unfair one, considering everyone can play with camera angles in 3rd person servers) but that does not invalid a preference that has been in the videogaming community since forever.

Edited May 25, 2015 by DocWolf

[Evil Minion 943]

Well, is it a feature or is it not? Make up your mind.

 

 

Hint, it's a feature. Just one you don't like

For the really slow ones:

• Third person perspective -> feature (intended)
• Peeking -> exploit (not intended)

It's the asymetrical vision creates subpar gameplay (because everyone can peek and many do it) not the perspective. As this asymmetry creates unfair situations and perspective should only be a matter of preference I call it "an unfair advantage". Also there are other methods of resolving peeking that crippling the third person camera. Strategy games have fog of war for years so something similar should be perfectly possible.

 

Finally "most people obviously like it" is a misinterpretation. Most people play on third person servers because those are the "standard" ones and just don't care enough to switch to first person servers. So first person players are the ones who care about non-peeking dominated gameplay and don't mind losing the third person view in the process.

Edited May 25, 2015 by Evil Minion

[HarryPotter (DayZ) 172]

UKA 1pp server is 50/50 most days :)

[8bit_Survivor 93]

/r/Dayzunderground is almost always close to the full 50. Although they are currently down for server hardware or some such. Should be back up soon, check out there reddit or steam community page.

-UN- has a 1pp server that was high pop for awhile but has been struggling recently as well.

[GaryWalnuts 1680]

Most people play on third person servers because those are the "standard" ones and just don't care enough to switch to first person servers. 

Way to insult an entire player base!  

When I play 1PP I choose it intentionally.  When I play 3PP I choose it intentionally. I play 1PP on 1PP servers and 3PP on 3PP servers, so there's no disadvantage that I can complain about.  Most people play 3PP for the very reasons that they clearly state, and have stated many times over  - in this thread and in many other threads.   They aren't stuck in front of their monitors thinking "oh god I clicked 3PP by accident. oh well I guess I am here forever"   Why you need to fabricate reasons for why other people prefer 3PP is kind of a mystery.

 

 

[Evil Minion 943]

No reason to react hysterically. I was talking about the peeking issue and nothing more. Because that's actually the only reason why you would play on first person servers over third person servers. Which - not quite coincidentally - answers the topics actual question.

 

But for some reason people react unreasonably aggressive if you point out that peeking is an exploit that should be fixed (which it is). Whether it is because they think you want to take away their precious third person view or because they use it themselves while knowing deep inside that it hurts gameplay.

[GaryWalnuts 1680]

I can see you've come to your own conclusions, and though I don't see how "not caring enough" is somehow the reason 1PP servers are empty, since they do care enough to intentionally choose 3PP, we're all entitled to our opinions.

 

 

I'd still like to add a few more general questions to the thread that I think relate to this discussion, all answers appreciated  :)

 

1) As stated I play 1PP on 1PP servers and 3PP on 3PP servers, so I have no complaints.  Why play 1PP on 3PP servers when there's plenty of 1PP servers available?  It seems the only reason to play them is to force oneself into an intentional disadvantage (which is totally avoidable by playing 1PP servers) and then complaining that the self-imposed "disadvantage" is an exploit.  And since nobody is forcing anyone to play 1PP on 3PP servers - is it really a disadvantage if you are willingly choosing it? 

 

2) Do 3PP players have legitimate concerns and complaints about 1PP mode?  Midget mode/height issues and head bob for instance, or do 1PP players generally dismiss these concerns as: not needing to be fixed/have been fixed/are not important to increasing 1PP popularity/1PP doesn't need any fixing whatsoever?

 

and 3)  Not that this will happen anytime soon (or possibly ever?) but others have suggested the desire to remove 3PP completely, if so would 3PP players migrate to 1PP?  Or will they just leave altogether?  And if they do leave altogether - would it matter to the remaining player base (or to the devs)?  Personally, I would stay because I like 1PP too, but I'm not sure I'm in the majority on this one.

 

didn't expect wall of text but I'm very interested in this development subject, all answers appreciated

[Evil Minion 943]

In general I try to argue with the following points:

• People play third person for a variety of reasons (seeing your characters/animations, playing with friends, issues with first person camera etc.).
• People play first person for a variety of reasons (immersion, not having your vision blocked by random objects, playing with friends etc.)
• Peeking results in asymmetrical vision that alters gameplay in a way that reduces player options/counterplay and can cause unfair situations.
• Peeking can be avoided on first person only servers. It cannot be avoided on third person servers.
• You can choose to play first person on third person servers.

though I don't see how "not caring enough" is somehow the reason 1PP servers are empty, since they do care enough to intentionally choose 3PP, we're all entitled to our opinions.

"Not caring enough" was meant only in relation to peeking. Here we got the following player groups:

• People who "do not care enough" (about the peeking issue) - I dare to say this is the majority of players who choose their servers independent of the possibility of peeking.
• People who "care enough":
  • Players who like peeking (I am pretty sure a very small minority who are elitist about their "skills" to abuse the camera perspective) 
  • Players who dislike peeking:
    • Some will still play on third person servers because they value other factors higher and just cope with the peeking. 
    • Others don't play on third person servers because they do not want to cope with peeking.

Alright lets remember: You can still use the first person camera on third person servers. So if peeking is either not very much of an issue for you or you cope with it for other reasons you lose almost nothing on third person servers. However, when playing on first person servers you lose the option to go into third person perspective. Sure you lose in gameplay terms (asymmetrical, less authentic, less tactical and less counterplay/more random) but in the end it's an early access alpha and gameplay is often lacking anyways, right? So in the end first person servers are only really attractive to the last group. 

Why play 1PP on 3PP servers when there's plenty of 1PP servers available?

You might want to play with friends who are on the 3rd person servers or you want to play on full/low pop/empty servers and there are only 3rd person servers available at the moment or you want to play on the bigger hive with more servers or on specific servers with good ping/moderation. Or just for the option to jump into the third person camera for once and a while (checking animations, taking screenshots, looking at you outfit form different angles etc.). In fact the only reason not to play first person on third person servers is the existence of peeking.

And since nobody is forcing anyone to play 1PP on 3PP servers - is it really a disadvantage if you are willingly choosing it?

I think so. Or more exactly: You are at a disadvantage if you choose not to use the peeking even if you are playing in third person view. You are even at a disadvantage if you do but just happen to be in a situation where the asymmetry simply does not favor you.

2) Do 3PP players have legitimate concerns and complaints about 1PP mode?

Yes. I am not sure how many you can solve by changing your settings (FoV, motion blur etc.) but there might be others as well. And of course: preference.

do 1PP players generally dismiss these concerns as: not needing to be fixed/have been fixed/are not important to increasing 1PP popularity/1PP doesn't need any fixing whatsoever?

Probably. Which is actually just as bad as dismissing the peeking issue - even though it is more a one-player thing and might not affect other players as much. Also keep in mind that currently players who like to avoid those issues are basically forced into a peeking environment.

Not that this will happen anytime soon (or possibly ever?) but others have suggested the desire to remove 3PP completely, if so would 3PP players migrate to 1PP?

Not sure but this is not the solution (it's like "remove public hive" as "fix" to server hopping). Because the issue is actually that you have to choose between being forced into a peeking environment (which hurts gameplay) or a first person only environment (which might hurt your personal experience). This situation hurts everyone but the few players who like to abuse the peeking exploit to get an advantage over others. All the other third person players have to cope with this and all the first person players (in fact everyone) has far less people to play with. A better solution would be to fix peeking, make perspective a matter of preference and give the elitists (both 1st person and peeking) the tools to enjoy their more limited gameplay on private servers.

 

TL:DR: Just the long version of what I wrote above.

Edited May 25, 2015 by Evil Minion

[xalienax 621]

@ Evil, well written mate. I think some of the hostility may come from the use of the term 'exploit' kinda makes its sound like anyone playing in 3pp is 'cheating'. As you pointed out, And I too; feel the vast majority just don't care about how the camera can be 'abused' and aren't actively 'trying to abuse' it. I have played a fair bit of 1pp and 3pp In dayZ mod, SA, Arma 2 & 3 alike, and both are interesting in their own ways.

 

That said I do appreciate that the way the camera is positioned so far back, and worse above the player model can in fact be used to gain an advantage that massively changes HOW you play the game. Infact many of us do it without even thinking about it. Look at almost any 3pp video and your see things like people running up to walls to 'peek over' or even deliberately manipulate the camera so that it goes 'inside' a wall thus allowing you to see thru the building your in. neither of these make for good gameplay.

[UKA Harrysoon 67]

UKA 1PP has been full a lot recently. In some cases it's been more popular than our 3pp server haha

[ASTINvlogs 44]

This pos game isn't ready for 1st person.

It's not " refined " enough we'll call it.

Laggy, glitchy, doesn't run smooth zomboozles still come through walls, hit you from beneath the floors. Make zero sounds as they're running towards you at 30 mph.

First person would suck. I only use it for longer range shots because it sucks in every other way. The game is barely playable in 3rd much less being stuck in first.

[Parazight 1594]

In the realm of computers, 'exploit' typically refers to an unethical act.  Or to use a vulnerability and be malicious.  Using 3pp is not malicious or unethical.  I think the words you want to use in this context are more along the lines of 'problematic design decision".

[Evil Minion 943]

"Exploit" is just right for the peeking part (especially when you use it to camp/stalk people while staying invisible). Otherwise I don't see any real problems. I used to play third person when I was new to get that better awareness of my characters stance and position but you can get most of this information in first person as well by using free look. The most obvious issue with first person I encountered is when driving the V3S - your character seems to sit way too high which makes it difficult to look outside (you can see the street well enough though) and as there are no mirrors you cannot look behind you. So in a certain sense the game is neither refined enough for first person nor for third person yet - but at least the first person issues don't have such a massive impact on other players (unless you run over your buddy while trying to park your truck).

 

As a side note there seems to be a much higher ratio of first person only players on experimental fluctuating roughly between 1:2 and 1:3 in my "<100 ping area" (there were free slots on all servers). Might have something to do with experimental providing as many first person servers as third person ones.

[hleVqq 139]

Casuals want to see their character

Noobs want to abuse 3PP

0.0001% become nauseous when in 1PP

 

All this added up makes most of the community, while actually hardcore players who are here to experience immersive survival instead of admiring their character gear from behind or standing behind a wall/on a roof for hours are left to suffer the emptiness of the servers they play in.

Edited June 2, 2015 by Powerhouse

[Perigrin 105]

I just do what i did in the mod. 3P until the fighting starts. I play on 1P only server fairly often, and i kinda like the insane paranoia that comes with a 1P server, but just for casual looting its off to 3P. 1P has better PVP though.

[xalienax 621]

it's literally gotten to the point that i find the constant belly aching and elitism about perspective 10x worse then any harm to gameplay caused by 'peeking'. geeze. the mere fact that the community had to be split over it is disgusting- but then, i don't expect most folks online to have any semblance of rational thought or the ability to carry on a constructive debate/discussion based on facts and verifiable information. instead its always the dividing into 2 camps, then pointing and blaming the other side for all that's wrong with the game. because you know, that's the easy thing to do.

 

to be entirely frank; When and if the game ever gets to a point that makes me want to play again, I'll play what ever servers the people i like to team with are set up on. 1pp, 3pp, public, private, it's all bullocks to me. It's all about the experience and immersion right? for me that comes from the people i play with. Not rather a floating camera can or cant be used to see over a stupid wall.

 

Tl;DR

At this point i have moved out of the 1pp/Fix 'broken 3pp' camp into the neutral middle ground of 'I don't care at all'. Mainly because of the narrow minded attitudes in the 1pp camp.. and things aren't much better in the 3pp camp. both sides are fulla folks who are un-interested in practical solutions that will produce an enjoyable experience, even if it's not one that caters to their individual taste.

Edited June 3, 2015 by Sovetsky

[Parazight 1594]

 

At this point i have moved out of the 1pp/Fix 'broken 3pp' camp into the neutral middle ground of 'I don't care at all'.

Amen, Brudda.

 

I'm also neutral.  There is no divide here.  I enjoy both types of servers.  Do I know people can peek and then KOS me?  Of course!  I just accept it as part of the package and move on.  1pp fanatics and 3pp noobs should too.  

 

Perhaps the people that complain about peeking should learn to let go of their gear.  Don't let death bother you and you wont be so annoyed by getting killed this way.

Edited June 3, 2015 by Parazight

[IgnobleBasterd 161]

  Using 3pp is not malicious or unethical. 

No, but exploiting 3pp to gain unfair advantage by camping and looking behind walls or corners is. There is no argument against this.