How hard should DayZ be?

[mike49 5]

As a fellow veteran of the mod, I've come to terms with the fact that Stand Alone isn't going to be the "HD Mod". I think of the DayZ mod as being one of the greatest ever made, and also being almost single-handedly responsible for pushing the survival FPS sub-genera into the mainstream. 

 

 

I would like to express my concerns in regards to the "feature bloat" currently threatening the SA.

Body temperature, diseases, advanced vehicle part system (in the future), blood type specific blood bags, weather effects on player etc. are all making the game more realistic,of that there is no doubt but then again, ask yourself: "Would the mod be more successful with these features?". I would like to say that I do recall some of these features later added to the mod (diseases and blood type specific blood bags) but as far as I remember, these were not present in the vanilla version of the mod during its exponential growth phase. 

 

What a lot of forum users fail to see, is that a game doesn't have to be incredibly unforgiving and realistic in every aspect in order to give a good survival experience. It's all relative. Comparing to other games available on the market, (at the time of release) DayZ mod would have been considered hardcore at the very least. The idea of perma death, breaking bones, lack of invulnerability, hunger, thirst, enemy AI etc, were all what made DayZ a hardcore game when compared with the likes of Battlefield, CoD, or even ARMA, regardless of what certain "elitists" might want you to think. 

 

I'm all for new features such as crafting, farming etc, however I think we need to be careful when pushing the game in the direction of pure brutal realism - we need to remember that after all this is meant to be a game, and while making it as realistic as possible sounds cool on paper, people ultimately don't want to play a game that feels like a chore. As an extreme (and silly) example, what if developers made it that we had to use separate keys for each leg when walking? Surely it would seem on paper more realistic, as we can control each limb independently, but there would be literally no benefits of such a system. 

 

My dream idea for the stand alone is to achieve these simple criteria:

• Optimization
• Large hordes of infected
• Vehicles with reasonable physics
• Smoothed out animations

If these simple tweaks were added with everything else the same as vanilla mod (perhaps with enterable buildings however) I would be perfectly happy with developers saying "we're done here, feel free to mod the game now!"

 

Quality over quantity! 

 

 

 

 

[DURRHUNTER 597]

Quantity over Quality is whats happening at the moment.

Bug smashing and Optimization is for later in Beta.

 

I see where your going with this though.

Edited May 6, 2015 by DURRHUNTER

[mike49 5]

Quantity over Quality is whats happening at the moment.

Bug smashing and Optimization is for later in Beta.

 

Absolutely, now is the time for new features to be added and tested, but that doesn't mean all, or even most of these features should stay for the final release.

The sentiment of "Quality over Quantity" was more in reference to the final product, and also the mod. In the mod we didn't have many features, but those that we had - hunting, cooking, car fixing - worked quite well without being overly complicated and frustrating. 

[AlphaDogMeat . 493]

Some people aren't going to be happy until the game is just:

 

1.  Spawn blinded on a beach.

 

2.  Die of $EFFECT 10 seconds later.

 

3.  Respawn.

 

Anything else is just "super easy" mode for COD kiddies.

 

P.S.  My character has survived for 2 years by eating Prigorodki mountain and drinking boiling lava.

[DURRHUNTER 597]

he final product, and also the mod. In the mod we didn't have many features, but those that we had - hunting, cooking, car fixing - worked quite well without being overly complicated and frustrating. 

Vehicles should be a pain to fix in the SA because they are in real life. Hunting in the mod was walking up to a cow and shooting it, which was stupid, the animals should act 'wild' because they have not been around people for a long time. Cooking was easy because there was no way to make it complicated. I personally like cooking food by the fire and chatting with friends while the food cooks.

[OrLoK 16185]

Hello there

 

Many folk want an "optimised" mod.

 

DAYZ SA wont be that.

 

Its a survival game and has many facets.

 

This is why many people prefer games like H1Z1 as they are fast and simplistic (in comparison) and many folk do want that. Thats fine.

 

If you want a deeper survival experience, well, thats what DAYZ will become.

 

Rgds

 

LoK

[mike49 5]

Vehicles should be a pain to fix in the SA because they are in real life. Hunting in the mod was walking up to a cow and shooting it, which was stupid, the animals should act 'wild' because they have not been around people for a long time. Cooking was easy because there was no way to make it complicated. I personally like cooking food by the fire and chatting with friends while the food cooks.

 

• Making vehicles difficult to fix simply requires parts to be rare, you can do without an intricate and ultimately pointless system if the parts are rare enough. 
• Hunting was like that due to basic/none existent animal AI. I'm all for making hunting more challenging, but we don't need a realistic skinning simulator. 
• Cooking. We can really push the boat quite far with this one. What if you can't safely cook meat until you find a cook book or recipe (RPG style), should you have to watch the meat for the colour? Should you set a timer for how long the rice is set to boil? Those things are realistic, but again, unnescessary in this type of game - however, if you're desperate to experience all of these, then you're in luck. Cooking Mama might be just for you :)

[mike49 5]

Hello there

 

Many folk want an "optimised" mod.

 

DAYZ SA wont be that.

 

Its a survival game and has many facets.

 

This is why many people prefer games like H1Z1 as they are fast and simplistic (in comparison) and many folk do want that. Thats fine.

 

If you want a deeper survival experience, well, thats what DAYZ will become.

 

Rgds

 

LoK

 

There's nothing wrong with making the game more difficult than the mod, but there is a limit when things get downright absurd. Consider for a second the length of Chernarus - roughly 13KM of land. If we were to turn the realism to the extreme, the run speed ought to be nerfed to something reasonable, for example 5KM/H. This would mean taking almost 3 hours to cross the map. That doesn't sound enjoyable to me at all, especially since right now majority of the map is rather bland (though I am aware of the newly added areas which are great). 

[surf_polar 110]

So I guess it has escaped your reading that the standalone repaetedly got called 'the anti game' by its makers? What you want is casualize the game. While there are many casual survival games out there, a truly hardcore and semi realistic one is hard to find. And the developers want to fill that hole. Why do you want to turn the standalone into something it isnt? Why is it always 'me me me me!!!' with todays gamers? Cant we atleast for once let the developers go through something exactly how they have planned it? It sometimes feels like groundhogsday on these forums..

[OrLoK 16185]

There's nothing wrong with making the game more difficult than the mod, but there is a limit when things get downright absurd. Consider for a second the length of Chernarus - roughly 13KM of land. If we were to turn the realism to the extreme, the run speed ought to be nerfed to something reasonable, for example 5KM/H. This would mean taking almost 3 hours to cross the map. That doesn't sound enjoyable to me at all, especially since right now majority of the map is rather bland (though I am aware of the newly added areas which are great). 

Hello there

 

Im all for nerfing running speeds, in fact my vision of DAYZ is quite different to that of the devs.

 

But im comfortable with that.

 

The devs and the parent company are a capable lot and I have faith in them bringing their vision to life. Key point ="their vision"

 

Now, whether it suits me or you is a very different thing.

 

Im positive certain aspects will "bug" me but I know the cohesive whole will appeal.

 

Also, mods in the far future may well help.

 

I understand everyone want their thing and can sympathise with that.

 

But sometimes we need to take off our rose tinted glasses.

 

Rgds

 

LoK

[Tatanko 5591]

As a fellow veteran of the mod, I've come to terms with the fact that Stand Alone isn't going to be the "HD Mod".

Based on everything you're posting, I would say you haven't come to terms with it.

 

I hate to say it, but it sounds like DayZ SA just isn't for you. I'm not going to say, "Go back to the Mod!" or "Go play H1Z1, you casual!" because that's just being confrontational, but if you don't like the direction this game is going in then you are going to be perpetually disappointed with it. It's only going to get more complicated, more in-depth, and more difficult.

[mike49 5]

So I guess it has escaped your reading that the standalone repaetedly got called 'the anti game' by its makers? What you want is casualize the game. While there are many casual survival games out there, a truly hardcore and semi realistic one is hard to find. And the developers want to fill that hole. Why do you want to turn the standalone into something it isnt? Why is it always 'me me me me!!!' with todays gamers? Cant we atleast for once let the developers go through something exactly how they have planned it? It sometimes feels like groundhogsday on these forums..

 

I don't want to make the game easier than the mod, that I clearly stated. And "letting the developers go through with something exactly like they planned it"? Are you serious? DayZ is CONSTANTLY changing. Plans are constantly made and scrapped, only "plan" that remains constant would be the idea of making a survival game.

[mike49 5]

-snip

 

Yes, of course, I was simply making an example. My post was not so much aimed towards the devs as it was aimed at the forum users who more often that not come up with quite ridiculous ideas. I don't think any of the features added thus far are detrimental to the mod, and I also share the opinion that run speed should be significantly nerfed, just not to the point of taking 3 hours to cross the map.

 

 

Based on everything you're posting, I would say you haven't come to terms with it.

 

I hate to say it, but it sounds like DayZ SA just isn't for you. I'm not going to say, "Go back to the Mod!" or "Go play H1Z1, you casual!" because that's just being confrontational, but if you don't like the direction this game is going in then you are going to be perpetually disappointed with it. It's only going to get more complicated, more in-depth, and more difficult.

 

I won't lie, I can't go back to the mod. I've had my time with it but there comes a point when you have everything figured out and the challenge simply isn't there anymore - hence why I like the idea of the SA building on the principles of the mod. 

[ebrim 998]

There's nothing wrong with making the game more difficult than the mod, but there is a limit when things get downright absurd. Consider for a second the length of Chernarus - roughly 13KM of land. If we were to turn the realism to the extreme, the run speed ought to be nerfed to something reasonable, for example 5KM/H. This would mean taking almost 3 hours to cross the map. That doesn't sound enjoyable to me at all, especially since right now majority of the map is rather bland (though I am aware of the newly added areas which are great). 

 

Why do you think that crossing the map is something that you should expect to be able to do in a short time? (though vehicles will make this possible for some)

 

As persistence improves, stashes and bases become more of a thing and different areas begin to be differentiated in terms of the loot economy in addition to player speed reduction and stamina my anticipation is that many people will become significantly less transient than they are now. Generally, I imagine people will have a "camp" area around which they spend most of their time and will only venture to the further flung parts of the map for specific goods or perhaps to migrate and avoid aggressive players that are moving into their area.

Edited May 6, 2015 by Ebrim

[mike49 5]

-snip

 

Interesting way of looking at it, would be interesting to see how that system plays out to be honest!

[Death By Crowbar 1213]

I want a few simple things:

1. You should be able to do to Zeds what you can do to players. Put burlap sacks over their heads, cuff them, force feed them, etc.
2. If a Zed kills you you should become an infected.
3. Bicycles.
4. Boats.

Then it would be - perfection... to me at least. #1 would bring much hilarity to the game, if I can't find people to torture I'll torture the infected!

[ebrim 998]

*snip*

1. You should be able to do to Zeds what you can do to players. Put burlap sacks over their heads, cuff them, force feed them, etc.

*snip*

 

Oh man, that would be ridiculously fun.

[mike49 5]

I want a few simple things:

1. You should be able to do to Zeds what you can do to players. Put burlap sacks over their heads, cuff them, force feed them, etc.
2. If a Zed kills you you should become an infected.
3. Bicycles.
4. Boats.

Then it would be - perfection... to me at least. #1 would bring much hilarity to the game, if I can't find people to torture I'll torture the infected!

 

Unfortunately, I remember reading something about motorbikes and bikes being too difficult to add to the game. I don't know if there's an official statement whether these will be added.

[surf_polar 110]

Are you serious? DayZ is CONSTANTLY changing. Plans are constantly made and scrapped, only "plan" that remains constant would be the idea of making a survival game.

Yes, they have a plan and vision that they stick to. Or are you another one of these guys that doesm't understand that ever changing and testing gameplay elements is exactly what is done in an alpha in game development?

[emuthreat 2837]

• Cooking. We can really push the boat quite far with this one. What if you can't safely cook meat until you find a cook book or recipe (RPG style), should you have to watch the meat for the colour? Should you set a timer for how long the rice is set to boil? Those things are realistic, but again, unnescessary in this type of game - however, if you're desperate to experience all of these, then you're in luck. Cooking Mama might be just for you :)

I'd love for the crafting and cooking system to develop many different layers.  Like harvesting natural buckwheat, then making an improvised stone mill to make flour, combine said flour with some water, and perhaps baking powder, put it in a stone oven to bake.  This would require a cookbook to know the proper bake time. With the recipe and a bit of luck, you'll have your bread in a few minutes. More realistically, a kitchen timer that's found in-game will let you know the bread is done, as well as alerting any players or zeds in the area.  Suppose you don't give a hoot about baking bread, you can just use any timers you find to distract zombies.

 

I, for one, will not be satisfied unless the gold release includes all of the crafting and cooking mechanics necessary for me to open a damn full-service delicatessen.

 

Baking bread is just one crucial step to the possibility of making Hoagie in game.  Wild mustard plants should be identifiable and harvestable, and captured live chickens should regularly lay eggs so I can make mayonnaise.  The curing of meats would make cold-cuts a reality, and there are already goats and cows, so getting milk and making cheese is not such a far stretch as long as you don't worry too much about the cultures necessary.

 

edit: grammar, color type, spelling

Edited May 11, 2015 by emuthreat

[Dagwood 680]

IMO, dayz should be a game that you don't play as your primary source of entertainment, as you might with battlefield or DOTA or WOW. It should be something you and your buddies decide to play for an afternoon, or for a week or so. Why? Because I think it should be frustratingly difficult. I have enough easily gratifying games. Dayz has the potential to be something different

[gibonez 3633]

I'm not so concerned with how "hard" the game is since difficulty is subjective.

 

However I do believe the more realistic the game is the better it will be.

[bauertschi 254]

There's nothing wrong with making the game more difficult than the mod, but there is a limit when things get downright absurd. Consider for a second the length of Chernarus - roughly 13KM of land. If we were to turn the realism to the extreme, the run speed ought to be nerfed to something reasonable, for example 5KM/H. This would mean taking almost 3 hours to cross the map. That doesn't sound enjoyable to me at all, especially since right now majority of the map is rather bland (though I am aware of the newly added areas which are great). 

 

Running speed will get nerfed iirc, but 5km/h is fast paced walking.

 

IMO, dayz should be a game that you don't play as your primary source of entertainment, as you might with battlefield or DOTA or WOW. It should be something you and your buddies decide to play for an afternoon, or for a week or so. Why? Because I think it should be frustratingly difficult. I have enough easily gratifying games. Dayz has the potential to be something different

 

PVE is hard for freshies, but easy after a while, when you get the experience. As there is no leveling of zeds or whatever, it will always become easier when you get geared, or a bambie could never even hope to survive. I just don't see how you can make PVE really hard for geared players while allowing survival for ungeared ones. Just how hard can PVE get while still allowing inexperienced players to actually learn the game and get better?

 

Imo there is only one possible outcome, in the end experienced (and somewhat skilled) players will mostly die to other players if they manage to get some gear. Maybe not exclusively, but mostly. Or maybe some areas will be higher risk and ppl go there... . Anything else would just prevent new players from starting DayZ. And the devs do not want that, don't know who could even want that. BUT whoever wants to can surely play on a server with less loot and more zeds...maybe with tweaked energy / hydration consumption, ... and all the goodies that will be allowed to be changed in private shards...whatever that will all entail :)

 

Concerning the original question, the temperature thing is not really too hard to grasp, currently you only get sick, if you really want to, ... it's not too bad really. No one forces you to eat burnt steaks, you can actually survive pretty easily forever with some remote berry bush. As long as you are healthy, you can even still drink from all the ponds, ... . We will see, how this will end.

Edited May 6, 2015 by bautschi

[☣BioHaze☣ 7337]

I just want to say....

 

I'm surprised how many people thought/hoped the SA would be the mod with better graphics and tighter security.

 

I want all the core concepts that made the mod great fleshed out plus more new elements that combine into a rich and challenging survival based experience.

[joona.kujanen@suomi24.fi 62]

I agree with the core survival elements that define the "survival" game aspects. Danger (masses of zombies, nature, diseases, functional pvp), Playability (no lagging /glitching /warping zombies and smoother animations) and Reward (loot and so on, atmosphere, gaming experience). Proper zombies and smooth gameplay would be nice, but maybe they will be fixed.

 

If you dont know Project Zomboid, I really recommend checking that game or its features at least. While looking different the basic survival elements work there and there're crazy amount of additional and functional stuff from that enrich the experience. Professions (engineer, farmer, police, repairman...), skills & hobbies, versatile building system, fishing, farming, scavenging, cooking, fairly complex health system, diseases, weather elements (snow, rain, temperature etc) and upcoming features are "smart" survivor npcs and cars. And the game is still in alpha. This game shows that the harder devs make the game, the more fun it offers. Devs want the players DEAD (or... their avatars in the game XD), so challenge accepted! At the moment it's fairly easy to survive after knowing the mechanics, but the development is going into the direction that it WILL get harder patch after patch.

That's why I think DayZ should be hard, even punishing, as well. While it would be nice that they fix the core first it's also nice to see they are using the alpha time to push their boundaries and try thing until they break. It feels like everything is more or less 30-60 % of the maximum quality/potential.  Every element they can add without breaking the core makes it richer as it offers players different ways to survive and experience the "post-apocalyptic" world. Their ambition and technical limitations are the natural limits.

(For some reason I fail to see how you can compare DayZ to CoD or Battlefields. I mean, the common factors are weapons and other people you can shoot at but according to that standard many games belong to the same category.)

Edited May 7, 2015 by Kuikka