Is PvP & Atmosphere Dying in DayZ SA?

[anderswhk 23]

This "atmosphere" you are talking about is simply a combination of the gloomy and bleak visuals of the ArmA 2 engine, and the sound effects. Nothing more.

 

Also, nostalgia. The game was new, mysterious and fresh back then. Nobody will be able to recreate that feeling for you.

Edited April 1, 2015 by anderswhk

[Jex 1104]

For an "anti-game", this game is anything but. OP is correct about the running speeds - since most people ran everywhere in the mod, why are they increasing the speed in the SA? Hello, do you not know your own fucking game by now? Promoting a game as a serious apocalypse and then putting shit in like this.

 

I've long since maintained that if you don't market your game correctly, you'll please no one and just piss people off. Either we're playing a survival apocalypse or we're watching an episode of the carebears. How many more years do we need to test out one mechanic of the game such as food respawns?

 

As for Melee weapons I think that's better than a shit load of guns all over the place but there are loads of things still missing that really should be in the game by now such as water - when are we going to have to boil it or use the tablets, exactly?.

[Jex 1104]

Pretty much this. Turn down all the headbob, all the things that make the characters head shake about like a windsock, and I still get "carsick" whenever I play 1PP and move around. I don't get carsick or seasick in real life, nor does this happen with any other 1PP game.

 

Not including the fact that in 1PP, it feels like you are playing with "blinders" on. In real life, I can get 180 degrees of vision just by moving my eyes, not my head (peripheral vision, but still vision). In Day Z, you are stuck constantly staring forwards. It feels like you are an owl, or a camera.

 

Finally, there is the fact that most buildings are incredibly out of scale with the characters, to the point where if I play in 1PP, I constantly think I am going to sprint into a wall, or get stuck on a doorframe. It makes clearing a building (I actually use 1PP in combat all the time) very disconcerting. Part of this is due to the speed and lack of "fluidity" our characters have when moving, I think. You zoom around, turning at crazy speeds, and my brain just can't keep up. When this gets fixed (the speed and turning issue), I expect the "disconcerting" aspect of buildings to be lessened, but they still need to fix the actual scale of the buildings.

 

I play 3PP, with the camera pulled in as far as it can go. Makes it very hard to "peek", and I can play without feeling like I am running into a wall or something.

 

Have you tried setting your FOV higher? Motion sickness occurs for people when it's set too low - Total Biscuit suffers from this except when he can change the FOV and in dayz, it goes a lot higher than most games do. If you're going to play zoomed in then yes, you will suffer Motion Sickness - try it out and see if it helps :)

[B4GEL 175]

For an "anti-game", this game is anything but. OP is correct about the running speeds - since most people ran everywhere in the mod, why are they increasing the speed in the SA? Hello, do you not know your own fucking game by now? Promoting a game as a serious apocalypse and then putting shit in like this.

From a status report:

 

While they [zombies] are pretty fast right now it is just the perception in comparison with current character movement speed, which is planned to be lowered in general as it was increased intentionally when we had decided to do a complete overhaul on how the engine handles vehicles, and thus they would be absent for some time. As well I'm looking forward to the implementation of a proper stamina system for characters which alone will cut off the constant sprinting across the map and thorough the structures which is just ridiculous.

 

 

As for Melee weapons I think that's better than a shit load of guns all over the place but there are loads of things still missing that really should be in the game by now such as water - when are we going to have to boil it or use the tablets, exactly?.

Now.

[break 88]

Look there is a sizable amount of people that CAN'T PLAY 1PP DUE TO MOTION SICKNESS!

 

Why should we be punished for something thing we have no control over? I played 1pp three or four times and each time eventually I've been so incapacitated by nausea it's basically runied my whole day, it can take that long to get over it.

 

Not all of us bugger about in dresses hitting each other with brooms. I too hate the fact that even on a full server nobody goes past Berezino. or Zelenogorsk.

 

Change the spawn points, tweek the loot spawns. keep the 1pp only servers for those that can hack it.

 

Did you turn off headbob? 

 

I wasn't aware of 1pp games causing motion sickness until DayZ? Is it the same with COD/BF? Or just DayZ? Out of curiosity? 

[Hicks_206 (DayZ) 4297]

For an "anti-game", this game is anything but. OP is correct about the running speeds - since most people ran everywhere in the mod, why are they increasing the speed in the SA? Hello, do you not know your own fucking game by now? Promoting a game as a serious apocalypse and then putting shit in like this.

 

I've long since maintained that if you don't market your game correctly, you'll please no one and just piss people off. Either we're playing a survival apocalypse or we're watching an episode of the carebears. How many more years do we need to test out one mechanic of the game such as food respawns?

 

As for Melee weapons I think that's better than a shit load of guns all over the place but there are loads of things still missing that really should be in the game by now such as water - when are we going to have to boil it or use the tablets, exactly?.

 

I've made this very clear - you're not playing a game, you have access to dev builds.

We've been in development for a little over a year now, and have -also- been very clear that this project would take an average 3 year development cycle. As recent as December we communicated a release from Early Access that is six months shorter than that.

[BCBasher 2465]

Did you turn off headbob? 

 

I wasn't aware of 1pp games causing motion sickness until DayZ? Is it the same with COD/BF? Or just DayZ? Out of curiosity? 

 

I saw complaints of it in the early release of ESO before they added an FOV slider.

 

My rig is 3X32" TVs at 3840X720 and I play 1pp just fine but if I try and watch it when my kids are playing I get dizzy and a headache.

[sneakydudes 278]

Have you tried setting your FOV higher? Motion sickness occurs for people when it's set too low - Total Biscuit suffers from this except when he can change the FOV and in dayz, it goes a lot higher than most games do. If you're going to play zoomed in then yes, you will suffer Motion Sickness - try it out and see if it helps :)

you have no clue. most of us that suffer from it do play with settings many times over to fix the motion sickness.

always someone trying to fix a reaction to the game settings.

 

headbob off for those that can't understand that.

 

It isn't just a couple people saying it, its many saying this. We use FOV 25% or less out so we adjust.

Because there is so many problems with low house heights, zooming through buildings etc.. you get foggy feeling after a bit.

 

Sometimes games with 1pp do effect others, so we switch to 3pp.

 

Arma 3, same issue went to 1pp found I started to feel foggy went to 3rd pp right away.

 

I always had issues with 1pp even back in the days, others no its a progressive thing for some.

[Razgries 25]

I've made this very clear - you're not playing a game, you have access to dev builds.

We've been in development for a little over a year now, and have -also- been very clear that this project would take an average 3 year development cycle. As recent as December we communicated a release from Early Access that is six months shorter than that.

 

 This is why I don't bother complaining about things like this, sure the game may be feeling like it's getting a little worn out for those of us that play it more then we should... But we are  getting a rare opportunity here to interact with a very open development team and help impact something that normally us average players never get to see until it's finished. It's just  silly to gripe about feeling bored after choosing to opt into this situation. We have like 50+ more updates with new things coming our way, tons of new features planned, improved Zombies just days out I believe. Patience my friends, patience...

[break 88]

*facepalm*

 

:( Was hoping for more than just *facepalm* off you Brian. 

 

As someone who's probably got over 6000 hours on DayZ, I'd like to think I can share my honest opinion on here in a none hateful way & at least get some feedback on my thoughts? Is that too much to ask? I know you're working your asses off, and this isn't a hate post directed towards you, your team OR DayZ, just a passionate players opinion. I thought they we're valued in a community? 

 

Its honest feedback too, I'm not pussy footing around blowing smoke up your asses. The games great & there are many mechanics that are wonderful, but I think the atmosphere overall sucks right now.... big time! Is this because I'm fighting against guys with pink dresses & broomsticks? YES! These are design choices, decisions the team has actively made, and it doesn't sit right with me and 1000's of others. Giving people a choice of what to wear is cool, but I think its important to keep a theme.

 

Theres a reason why Joel and Ellie don't wear pink raincoats or dresses in The Last of Us, and why The Walking Dead is mostly mute, earthy desaturated colours. Its keeps to a theme, and keeps the player/viewer locked in, creates a believable environment and immerses them into this new world. Granted, pink raincoats and dresses would not just vanish in an apocalypse, but you have to keep a theme no?

 

There is no identity right now with the SA. Its all over the place. Its a hardcore sim one minute with military weapons and zeroing where you can get cholera and have to maintain a healthy diet to thrive, but then there's also naked guys running around in dresses carrying broomsticks holding child's briefcases. I don't know, its like 2 different games & sometimes leaves me not knowing what to think. I'm certainly sucked out of the world & environment when I see these kind of things and the game becomes something else. Definitely not a gritty zombie apocalypse simulator....

 

There are bugs hindering the atmosphere too, bugs I kind of expected you guys to jump on to be honest. Still wander around for hours without hearing a gun shot, I'm still out of breath after running 15ft creating the most crazy sway mechanics I've ever seen in a game & still can't hold my breath or go prone to help reduce this. (Promoting camping...in 3pp)...I'm still hearing ambient sounds, the rain is still as loud as a tank & there are still only 3 weather cycles, raining, sunny, or rain every 30 seconds. 

 

Bugs I can understand & its part of an alpha, and part of the growing pains in developing a game. (These affecting the atmosphere might only be temporary, but they have been in for 1.3 years now). Its not like these things have been in for a patch or 2.

 

After 6000 hours you might think its just me getting bored of DayZ & I need to give it a break, but I played the Mod the other day and within 15 minutes I felt more atmosphere & tension in that than I have for the past....6 months of Standalone. I killed a cow because I NEEDED to, I was starving to death & needed health. I remember a "broken" patch a while back that made food really rare...it was GREAT! It actually got me back playing, DayZ was hard again! (It was patched out swiftly and food was everywhere again)...

 

DayZ isn't hard anymore, and if its by design to get more people to play it then I feel its the wrong choice honestly. Right now you run fast as Usain Bolt & food is everywhere, by design. I just feel like, although its an alpha, you could still make it hard by design, and not make it easy. Bugs are bugs, and although as I said above I feel some should be jumped on and patched out now I understand these being in the game and your limitations with these. But designing the game to be easy now, may have huge repercussions later on? It also destroys the most important thing about DayZ, the atmosphere!

 

Brian I love you, but the feeling isn't there at the moment with SA, and I'm wondering what you're going to do to bring that back is all? In the short term...& by design.

 

Hope you appreciate this as what it is, honest feedback from a guy who loves your game. <3 

[Jonah_Hobbes 171]

Did you turn off headbob? 

 

I wasn't aware of 1pp games causing motion sickness until DayZ? Is it the same with COD/BF? Or just DayZ? Out of curiosity? 

Yeah done everything. It's just one of those things. Even in 3PP if I'm running around inside two or three apartment blocks can do it.

 

Most 1PP do it for me. In fact DayZ is a little better than a lot I've palyed. The worst were the Sherlock Holmes and Call of Cthulhu games without any HUD I'd last about 10 minutes. DayZ I can last about an hour.

 

There is a large number of the gaming population effected by this condition.

Edited April 1, 2015 by Jonah_Hobbes

[twr 43]

This highlights another problem with early access development and that's using the the statement as a scapegoat. Yes, alpha is a good excuse for things like bugs and incomplete systems or things that have yet to be implemented, but it is not an excuse for why we haven't had to change the way we play for over a year. About the only thing that has changed is where we find automatic weapons.

its not A scapegoat. If you don't like playing a game that is being developed DON'T PLAY IT. Starcraft 2 took 10 years to develope and is VERY similar to SC. players like you are the problem, not the length of development.

[Zboub le météor 250]

:( Was hoping for more than just *facepalm* off you Brian. 

 

As someone who's probably got over 6000 hours on DayZ, I'd like to think I can share my honest opinion on here in a none hateful way & at least get some feedback on my thoughts? Is that too much to ask? I know you're working your asses off, and this isn't a hate post directed towards you, your team OR DayZ, just a passionate players opinion. I thought they we're valued in a community? 

 

Its honest feedback too, I'm not pussy footing around blowing smoke up your asses. The games great & there are many mechanics that are wonderful, but I think the atmosphere overall sucks right now.... big time! Is this because I'm fighting against guys with pink dresses & broomsticks? YES! These are design choices, decisions the team has actively made, and it doesn't sit right with me and 1000's of others. Giving people a choice of what to wear is cool, but I think its important to keep a theme.

 

Theres a reason why Joel and Ellie don't wear pink raincoats or dresses in The Last of Us, and why The Walking Dead is mostly mute, earthy desaturated colours. Its keeps to a theme, and keeps the player/viewer locked in, creates a believable environment and immerses them into this new world. Granted, pink raincoats and dresses would not just vanish in an apocalypse, but you have to keep a theme no?

 

There is no identity right now with the SA. Its all over the place. Its a hardcore sim one minute with military weapons and zeroing where you can get cholera and have to maintain a healthy diet to thrive, but then there's also naked guys running around in dresses carrying broomsticks holding child's briefcases. I don't know, its like 2 different games & sometimes leaves me not knowing what to think. I'm certainly sucked out of the world & environment when I see these kind of things and the game becomes something else. Definitely not a gritty zombie apocalypse simulator....

 

There are bugs hindering the atmosphere too, bugs I kind of expected you guys to jump on to be honest. Still wander around for hours without hearing a gun shot, I'm still out of breath after running 15ft creating the most crazy sway mechanics I've ever seen in a game & still can't hold my breath or go prone to help reduce this. (Promoting camping...in 3pp)...I'm still hearing ambient sounds, the rain is still as loud as a tank & there are still only 3 weather cycles, raining, sunny, or rain every 30 seconds. 

 

Bugs I can understand & its part of an alpha, and part of the growing pains in developing a game. (These affecting the atmosphere might only be temporary, but they have been in for 1.3 years now). Its not like these things have been in for a patch or 2.

 

After 6000 hours you might think its just me getting bored of DayZ & I need to give it a break, but I played the Mod the other day and within 15 minutes I felt more atmosphere & tension in that than I have for the past....6 months of Standalone. I killed a cow because I NEEDED to, I was starving to death & needed health. I remember a "broken" patch a while back that made food really rare...it was GREAT! It actually got me back playing, DayZ was hard again! (It was patched out swiftly and food was everywhere again)...

 

DayZ isn't hard anymore, and if its by design to get more people to play it then I feel its the wrong choice honestly. Right now you run fast as Usain Bolt & food is everywhere, by design. I just feel like, although its an alpha, you could still make it hard by design, and not make it easy. Bugs are bugs, and although as I said above I feel some should be jumped on and patched out now I understand these being in the game and your limitations with these. But designing the game to be easy now, may have huge repercussions later on? It also destroys the most important thing about DayZ, the atmosphere!

 

Brian I love you, but the feeling isn't there at the moment with SA, and I'm wondering what you're going to do to bring that back is all? In the short term...& by design.

 

Hope you appreciate this as what it is, honest feedback from a guy who loves your game. <3 

 

i'm quite sure brian's facepalm was not directed to you ;)

 

i understand your concern about the game direction, and the actual sillyness of some players (i encountered players with that deadly dress and broomstick combo too), but i think you just need a break off the standalone.

 

i'm quite sure dev's and you share the same goal for the standalone experience, they gives evidence of it almost every weeks. the game will become way harder, people will have to go further inland and silly broomstick deathmatch fighters won't be able to last long enought to bother "serious" players.

 

it's an exciting time for standalone players, the gameplay is about to change drasticly (new loot distribution, respawn/despawn, advanced crafting and survival features, diseases and more "hardcore" gameplay, decrease of the quantity of non perishable food...), experimental shows it more and more lately.

 

so wait a few weeks, maybe a month or two and comeback ;)

[sneakydudes 278]

This topic is the #1 reason why we had closed beta, alpha in the years past.

 

Your an open tester, know how many years it takes? Its not the fault projects like this take so much money to get off the ground.

 

Just it got a ton of exciting player base wanting it.

 

So again I urge players to remember, some software, games take many years to develop. (we are molding a game here, and you need to remember where your places are)

for 20 or 30 dollars, you have had way more content then 2-3 rental movies. So stop trying to turn this into some reddit thread and be civil and keep putting in your thoughts.

 

I still agree all the devs need to keep testing other games to get a feel for what is needed and what is not. Dayz is a much needed product in the market, and I hope it does as well as COD on the #1 charts.

 

Be civil everyone...!

Edited April 1, 2015 by TheSneakyDude

[sneakydudes 278]

For those that keep needing reminding

 

Software testing is an investigation conducted to provide stakeholders with information about the quality of the product or service under test.^[1] Software testing can also provide an objective, independent view of the software to allow the business to appreciate and understand the risks of software implementation. Test techniques include, but are not limited to, the process of executing a program or application with the intent of finding software bugs (errors or other defects).

 

Source Wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_testing

 

We are stakeholders of a perfect game... so again

 

be civil and help mold it to be your game.

[freethink 984]

Haven't read all the replies but I'd suggest the op stay away from public shards. I moved from 3p public to 1p private at christmas and one big difference was where people hang out and what they do. I play on oldschooldayz and most of the action seems to be in the nwaf and surrounding areas. In fact, every mil area is a pvp fest. Many towns just near to mil bases are the same e.g. stary. I very rarely see the stupid no pant+broom combo running around anywhere. 

[CJFlint 357]

For those that keep needing reminding

 

Software testing is an investigation conducted to provide stakeholders with information about the quality of the product or service under test.^[1] Software testing can also provide an objective, independent view of the software to allow the business to appreciate and understand the risks of software implementation. Test techniques include, but are not limited to, the process of executing a program or application with the intent of finding software bugs (errors or other defects).

 

Source Wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Software_testing

 

We are stakeholders of a perfect game... so again

 

be civil and help mold it to be your game.

I used to be a STE Game Tester right after I got out of school. THESE ARE DEF PAID JOBS. You dont just play the game you use tools to find bugs, and data bases to log them. What were doing here is not STE work dont kid your self. Were playing a game/build that is early access, thats it. Maybe unknowingly helping to test stabilty, or mass testing. But not STE. You really dont have much say so on how anything turns out at the end. I dont think it should be either, or we should all be getting checks and our names in the credits. What this is a limited budjet video game prodject at 1st anyways, were they let the public play before release. Probably becuase they dont have a huge staff of STEs like big budjet games have maybe. Also I am not a stakeholder. Did I miss the memo, we get shares in this thing when its done? LOL

 

There is a big difference between a STE and some one who simply buys and downloads a early access game/build on steam and plays it.

 

When dayz sa 1st came out there really was not a whole lot of early access games out on steam anyways. It seemed at the time to be vary cool. Let a lower budget or indi game get crowd funded. There was only a few early access games on steam at the time. This is nothing against dayz sa but, what I find alarming now days steam has really ramped up early access. Its seems like every other game is early access now. So steam is filled now with half finished games. People are really starting to notice this on other forums and warning flags are starting to pop up. So what now we have to deal with growing pains and bugs for every game we play on steam now. It smells of corp greed. Another issue I have with it is your avarage mainstream player has no idea what early access really means yet now days these type of game are being targeted to mainstream players. I say at the min they should be made much more aware of what that all means, so they can decide maybe I will just wait or decide to play. I have seen it here on the forums allot, were players get really pist off about the state of dayz. Almost like they dont understand what ealry access means. I think part of thats there fault, but really is early access really ment for mainstream gamers? Kind too late now for this one. But maybe in the future it would be something to think about.

Edited April 1, 2015 by CJFlint

[8bit_Survivor 93]

It's not about taking a break from Day Z. I am under 50 hours into my survival and I feel the same as Break does. There is absolutely no atmosphere or is at the least it's lacking.

Could we also stop telling players to 'stop playing if you don't like the game'! In the end, if you like the game in its current state you are not going to like it when it's finished. The current state is nothing like they are promoting the game as being. Alpha = Feedback (both positive AND negative)

[jubeidok 495]

Another thing I'd like to point out, in this thread and many others is the shear amount of people on forums that don't know the difference between 'there', 'their' and 'they're' or 'your' and 'you're' is a pretty good indicator of why games get dumbed down for the masses. Just sayin'.

[sachad 1016]

Another thing I'd like to point out, in this thread and many others is the shear amount of people on forums that don't know the difference between 'there', 'their' and 'they're' or 'your' and 'you're' is a pretty good indicator of why games get dumbed down for the masses. Just sayin'.

 

Don't be that guy. I HATE that guy.

[BeefBacon 1185]

I've made this very clear - you're not playing a game, you have access to dev builds.

We've been in development for a little over a year now, and have -also- been very clear that this project would take an average 3 year development cycle. As recent as December we communicated a release from Early Access that is six months shorter than that.

 

So what you're saying is that we're playing a game, and that said game is absolutely representative of the final product that has already been in development for 5 years? YOU HAVE TO BE MORE CLEAR, HICKS.

 

 

I've got absolute faith that DayZ will be all it was meant to be when it is released. I've been playing Standalone since it first came out, but I've barely got 100 hours in (which pales in comparison to the 1000+ hours some people have). I like to leave DayZ for a few months and come back to see all the cool new stuff before having a break again.

 

That might be why the atmosphere of DayZ is still there for me. Sure, I can think of improvements, but I daresay many of these improvements are already being developed or are planned. So I'm perfectly happy coming back to DayZ every couple of months, because almost every aspect of it improves every time I do.

 

 

...also I primarily play on 1pp servers, so I don't doubt that helps immensely in terms of atmosphere, but that's beside the point.

 

 

Another thing I'd like to point out, in this thread and many others is the shear amount of people on forums that don't know the difference between 'there', 'their' and 'they're' or 'your' and 'you're' is a pretty good indicator of why games get dumbed down for the masses. Just sayin'.

 

 

*sheer

Edited April 1, 2015 by BeefBacon

[xalienax 621]

-snip-

 Now days  there more casual gamers that happen to run across dayz and dont really know what "early access" means, or even would want to learn. They come into the world of dayz and causes a mountain of frustration. I think overtime early access is going to get more and more of a bad rap.

I partly blame the all too common "pre-order for beta" culture and those 'betas' are often no more then nearly feature complete tech demos (stripped down to a small segments, or a single Map/mode in the case of online multiplayer) to get the fan boys hyped about the title.

 

IMHO early access as a concept is really bad in many ways. a While ago someone did a video on it that really hit the nail on the head.

 

1. There is no pre-established/enforced criteria for what constitutes early access or how long something can remain in an 'early access' state. (customer confidence issue)

2. There is no hard and fast legal penaltys for developers/publishers who use Early access to sell products that they can choose to later cancel or release in an incomplete state.

3. As i said before many people coming to Early Access don't realy understand what alpha and beta stage are and are accustomed to 'betas' that are at best server stress tests and a sly way to boost pre-orders.

4. When a game goes thru a long time on Early Access without very active community involvement/communication or just flat out takes too long; you run the risk of a considerable amount of your playerbase simply growing tired of of your game and the update trickle before its even in a 'complete' state. which leads to.....

5. This sharp divide between newcomers to the game and the remaining 'bitter vets' who want to use the new-bros as scape goats for any design change/update they don't like. 

 

On top of all this, dayZ evolved from a MOD that already had a large and strongly rooted community who had their own vision of what makes dayZ what it is. that in and of it's self makes any departure or shift in game play a big bad can of worms just waiting to be sprung open.

 

Bottom line I like the DayZ concept. I played the mod all the way back to the days of spawning with beans, bandage, and pistol in official public hive (before there even were any private hives). that Said, i don't really know if or believe that the SA can ever truly re-capture the enjoyment I got from the mod back then. maybe less was more. i don't know but i feel like were getting further away from the mod in a bad way with every change.

[8bit_Survivor 93]

.55 is going to make a big difference. Persistence, central loot, zombie AI!

[jubeidok 495]

 

*sheer

 

LOL. Yup, it was bound to happen with a post like that.

 

Between this and a boxing forum I visit, I have been seeing far too many "there doing this" and "there doing that". I just couldn't take it any more. I'm not perfect either, but lets keep it on the DL. They'll never notice.

[anderswhk 23]

Third person gives a much more realistic perspective of being able to spot things infront of you quickly, as well as properly position your body behind cover. 

 

What you are talking about here is due to the field of view, which can be adjusted. This is also why many modern FPS which are developed with the console market in mind, have the exact same problem with it being harder to navigate inside buildings and around stuff, because the view is slightly zoomed in because console players sit on a couch away from the TV.

 

I find 1pp a very cool and interesting feature in this game, with how you can move the head and such. A lot more immersive. It also makes combat a lot slower paced, and people aren't camping corners and high walls. I don't play it tho, because none of my friends choose to, and one of them does YouTube videos, so 3pp suits the audience more.

 

I honestly wouldn't mind if 3pp were completely disabled, but a lot of people would.

 

I dislike the gameplay 3pp promotes, where you can scout locations and spy on players without them having as much as a chance to even see you. That's bullshit in my opinion but it goes both ways. You also have much better awareness simply by the camera being a little higher than eye height.

Edited April 1, 2015 by anderswhk