Swords, Maces, rarity vs function

[Bororm 1156]

So a few weeks ago I found my first sword, I'm serious when I say I felt compelled to check Zub on a particular log in.  Some how I knew I was going to find it.  Up till that point I hadn't consistently looked for them, but I had checked every castle I'd come by and besides one particularly shady person weeks earlier I'd never even seen one in game.

 

So of course I did what anyone should do when they find such a rare weapon and dedicated my life to the sword.  It was short lived but fun.  My initial encounter was with this guy:

 

After hitting him once, he shot me in the chest:

 

Some how I survived with minimal damage and my friend knocked him out and I subsequently executed him when he awoke.  He had been shot at least once by an aug before I hit him, shot again to knock him out after I hit him and then hit once more to kill him.  The point there being, that even with 2 gunshots of 5.56 a combined sword hit didn't kill him.

 

After that little bout a friend of mine fell off the stairs in Zub and I logged in to go get his stuff.  Interestingly enough he had found a sword of his own, two in a couple of days, I thought perhaps the patch had made them less rare.  As I got to the castle there were two players looting his stuff, so I did what any good feller would do:

 

 

 

I hit this guy twice, he ran off and ended up shooting me, killing me in one shot.

 

After that I searched the majority of castles, multiple restarts a day for the following week not finding another sword.  In the few weeks following my efforts have deteriorated but I've still made more than the average point of checking castles.  I play on a private shard and the restarts are consistent, I know I'm hitting them before other people.  The sword is still extremely rare.  I have found a decent amount of maces (some where around 5 in 3 weeks) but the mace has its own set of problems.

 

The point here is that these weapons (mainly the sword) is ridiculously rare for what it is.  I think there's some novelty to that, and when you find/see one it is a bit of an event, however the ease at which you can lose these things and their lack of practicality are a bit off set.  The sword is rumored to be about equivalent damage to a splitting axe, it's two hits to kill a zombie (unless headshot) and clearly 2+ hits to kill a geared player.  The mace is on par with your average useless melee weapon, where if you aren't getting headshots you may as well not bother.  Neither weapon serves a secondary function, you can't even chop kindling with a sword.  The mace takes up inventory slots as it can't be put in your melee slot.  From a practical standpoint, there is absolutely no reason to use either of these weapons over a fireaxe.  If you can't tell from my screenshots and story, I don't especially care about being practical =P

 

All that said I think the sword could stand to be slightly less rare, perhaps as rare as the mace is currently.  I think damage could be improved a bit.  I'm not one to believe an item has to have a clear advantage, it's a sandbox and I enjoy a challenge, but I think a two hit kill on average is reasonable for a sword against the typical kind of gear.  Obviously kevlar, helmets and what not should play a role there, but it is a weapon designed for a single purpose which is melee combat and we're hitting people in clothing for the most part.

 

Any ways, discuss your sword experiences and thoughts.  I could do without the "swords shouldn't even be in dayz its stupid" comments that are likely, but to each their own, they are already here.

[CornProducts 315]

That last pic is an epic shot.

 

I think swords should be one hit kills. You can't chop a tree, sow some wheat, or dig up worms with it. It should be at least excellent in one area.

[Jesus Christ The Goblin 71]

I was so disappointed in the mace that I ended up leaving it in a police station.

[-Gews- 7443]

They could definitely buff the damage on the sword but I don't want to have "katana syndrome" in DayZ (one hit kill). And as for the mace... looks cool, but it's blunt metal head on a stick. Why should it do significantly more damage than say, the pipe wrench, as I've seen some people suggest? And I wouldn't give it equal damage to the much larger sledgehammer. The sword is a status symbol. I use mine for zombies.

[Bororm 1156]

I was so disappointed in the mace that I ended up leaving it in a police station.

It is really bad.  I haven't had a chance to hit a player yet (been shot trying!) but you can just tell from hitting zombies they are terrible.  It's a few head shots to even kill a zombie, it just knocks them down.  Something interesting is that I think it uses some knife statistics.  There was a bit in some patch notes about not being able to use it to skin animals any more, the way it is drawn/swung is also a clue (doesn't have a pull out animation).  This seems to be what they do for most melee weapons actually, is just copy paste some stats.  It's sorta disheartening, but I'm sure it's all place holder till they get a better melee system in.  Still, changing a few numbers isn't so hard.

 

Actually I suppose that is a bit of the issue, is that big balance changes aren't a priority but it is hard to judge just how good these weapons are against players when they are so difficult to find (more so the sword).

 

They could definitely buff the damage on the sword but I don't want to have "katana syndrome" in DayZ (one hit kill). And as for the mace... looks cool, but it's blunt metal head on a stick. Why should it do significantly more damage than say, the pipe wrench, as I've seen some people suggest? And I wouldn't give it equal damage to the much larger sledgehammer. The sword is a status symbol. I use mine for zombies.

The mace is flanged, so it should do a bit more damage than a wrench I'd imagine.  I do agree that unlike the sword, it probably wouldn't necessarily be lethal with body shots however.

 

It would be nice in general if there were more status effects to damage, and perhaps we'll see a bit of that as the game progresses.  They are working on staggering hits to zombies with hints that we'll see it on players eventually, so maybe it will play a role later.  It would be nice if being hit by a mace would result in consistent fractures at least for the time being.

 

Likewise, I agree that the sword should not be a one hit kill, but it should cause some very severe damage.  Two seems pretty reasonable to me against average gear.

 

Obviously we're still early in development so all these things can change.  For the time being, I'd be happy if they just slightly bumped the spawn rate on the thing (I still want them rare).  Even as a status symbol they're a bit ill served currently, as I have only ever seen a single one on another player and it just served to make me question his validity =P

Edited March 25, 2015 by Bororm

[yazar8 584]

A sword should be as powerful as the firefighter axe and less powerful than a shotgun.

Edited March 25, 2015 by Yazar8

[Wookieenoob 191]

i know that exact feeling of knowing you're going to get some specific loot.

 

i did the same thing with chernarus PD uniform yesterday

 

 

"i'd REALLY LIKE THIS police uniform"

 

*doubletakes at the next police car*

[Tatanko 5591]

A sword should be as powerful as the firefighter axe and less powerful than a shotgun.

I can get behind this.

 

 

OP, I feel your pain. I've had a sword twice since they've been introduced, and I always feel like a badass carrying one around, but the performance is disappointing. It's great fun for slaying zombies with the long reach that it has, but I would rather use a fire axe against another player.

[chompster 171]

A sword should be as powerful as the firefighter axe and less powerful than a shotgun.

I don't know about that.

 

Even historically, Axes have generally always been a lot more powerful than swords(depending on how you use it of course) But seeing how we only have a chopping action in Dayz, the sword wouldn't be as powerful as an Axe. Not to mention that it's some old abandoned sword, so even if it's "pristine" it's not as if it's freshly off the grinding stone so it probably would act more as a blunt weapons unless you stabbed hard with it.

[Jex 1104]

Remembering both these weapons were developed in an era where just about everyone wore some kind of armour protection. Meaning, if you aren't wearing armour, one hit with one of these weapons is going to seriously injure you, it not kill you outright. That mace above - want me to smash your head with it as hard as I can and see what happens?

 

Now imagine wearing a helmet and getting hit - you can already feel the difference just via imagination so we all know what damage these things can do so why can't they model that in game. Broken arms and legs for those areas hit. Head shot instant death with either, chest shot severe bleeding with the sword, broken ribs and blunt trauma with the mace.

 

Both of these could be countered by wearing armour on those body parts.

[Jex 1104]

 

During the Middle Ages metal armour such as mail protected against the blows of edged weapons and blocked arrows and other projectiles^{[citation needed]}. Solid metal maces and war hammers proved able to inflict damage on well armoured knights, as the force of a blow from a mace is great enough to cause damage without penetrating the armour. Though iron became increasingly common, copper and bronze were also used, especially in iron poor areas. The Sami for example^{[citation needed]} continued to use bronze for maces as a cheaper alternative to iron or steel swords.

One example of a mace capable of penetrating armour is the flanged mace. The flanges (protruding edges of metal) allow it to dent or penetrate even the thickest armour.

[Death By Crowbar 1213]

But... isn't the pen mightier than the sword?  :lol:

 

After around 30 castle visits over a 2 week stint of running between 3 different castles I've still never seen a sword. Not one. My plan to be like the Highlander, Connor MacCleod of the clan MaCleod was sorta crushed by the time vampire in finding a sword to begin with...

[ebrim 998]

This is not some newly forged piece of awesome steel sword, it's a relic from a bygone era that looks particularly badass. :D I think if you smack someone in the unprotected head with it, they should go down but you shouldn't expect it to be super-effective. Enjoy it for the badassery or leave it for the next guy who will.

 

I still haven't found one. :(

Edited March 25, 2015 by Ebrim

[☣BioHaze☣ 7337]

Nice screenshots, man!

 

A mace should be a nasty weapon and a well placed head shot with one should be a KO if you're not wearing a helmet.

 

I've passed up the mace every time I've seen it though. Once I heard it was sort of "useless" at this point..... why try?

 

I have had the sword twice, the first time was when it was brand new and I did well to run around yelling "CROM!" while killing zombies with it.

 

The 2nd one I found was in a feeding station in the NE, not long after spawning, on the 0.55 build that had the messed up heat map for the items.

 

I like the sword and hope they tweak it to be a little stronger/better somehow.

 

I do feel like you should at least be able to chop kindling with it from the bushes but maybe it should damage the sword a bit quicker when used this way.....

[Bororm 1156]

Not to mention that it's some old abandoned sword, so even if it's "pristine" it's not as if it's freshly off the grinding stone so it probably would act more as a blunt weapons unless you stabbed hard with it.

 

 

This is not some newly forged piece of awesome steel sword, it's a relic from a bygone era that looks particularly badass. :D I think if you smack someone in the unprotected head with it, they should go down but you shouldn't expect it to be super-effective. Enjoy it for the badassery or leave it for the next guy who will.

 

I still haven't found one. :(

 

The description on it is that it's a replica, it's not an antique.  I'd be fine with having to sharpen it or something too though.

 

 

I don't think the dayz one is a hand and half sword, but this is the closest example I could find.  Most of their swords have pretty similar results.  Mildly goofy video but demonstrates why you definitely wouldn't want to get hit by any kinda sword without protection:

 

 

Some of their other ones they hit ballistic gel dummies that are sufficiently gruesome

http://www.coldsteel.com/Category/4_1/Swords.aspx

Edited March 25, 2015 by Bororm

[yazar8 584]

I don't know about that.

 

Even historically, Axes have generally always been a lot more powerful than swords(depending on how you use it of course) But seeing how we only have a chopping action in Dayz, the sword wouldn't be as powerful as an Axe. Not to mention that it's some old abandoned sword, so even if it's "pristine" it's not as if it's freshly off the grinding stone so it probably would act more as a blunt weapons unless you stabbed hard with it.

 

But but what about those swords which cut off body parts? :(((

[xalienax 621]

they should do reasonable damage, especially to the vital areas. infact, i would argue that the damage model for mele weapons in general needs an overhaul to more 'realistic' levels. EG a sledge/mace/pipewrench to an un-protected head should all stand a good chance of being a kill, with the draw back being you have to actually ninja your way to within arms reach of your victim.

[Bororm 1156]

So I just found one actually, if anything good becomes of it I'll post some more screenshots.  This one is damaged state, though I honestly don't think it really matters for melee weapons as ruined axes etc seem to kill in just as many hits?

[Whyherro123 2283]

The description on it is that it's a replica, it's not an antique.  I'd be fine with having to sharpen it or something too though.

 

 

I don't think the dayz one is a hand and half sword, but this is the closest example I could find.  Most of their swords have pretty similar results.  Mildly goofy video but demonstrates why you definitely wouldn't want to get hit by any kinda sword without protection:

 

 

Some of their other ones they hit ballistic gel dummies that are sufficiently gruesome

http://www.coldsteel.com/Category/4_1/Swords.aspx

 

Meh, chances are you can do that with basically any reasonably-sharp cutting implement, axe, knife, or sword. Take a closer look at what exactly they are doing: cutting meat, cardboard, and even thin rolled steel (cans), when the thing being cut is braced or otherwise prevented from moving. I can do that with a shitty folding knife. 

 

There are many knife (and sword and axe) "experts" (for lack of a better term) online that essentially make fun of the above Cold Steel presenters for their videos, and how seriously they take their methods of proving how good their products are. And Cold Steel, while a good company, is not "the best" when it comes to knives and other blades.

But but what about those swords which cut off body parts? :(((

 

 In reality, swords (and axes, for that matter) did not "cut off body parts" in actual combat all that often. Dismembering (that is, the complete removal of a limb) is actually rather difficult, as 1) bone, especially living bone, is rather hard to cut through, unless you go "in-between" the joints, which is far more difficult than it seems 2) the limb is free-moving, that is, capable of moving with the blow, rather than being braced against it and taking all of the force, and 3) most combatants will try to move their limb out of the way, further lessening the force of the blow.

 

The above video is a perfect demonstration of why dismembering limbs is, and was, so difficult and rare. All the meat they are cutting? Braced against the blow, so the flesh will receive ALL the force from the edge. Let the meat free-swing, and chances are you won't have legs of pork being cut in half in one swing. Will it cut into the flesh, probably break the bone underneath? Almost certainly, but not completely cut off the limb.

 

Don't forget, even when wearing armor, you can still feel the force of a blow. A mail-shirt, for example, wouldn't make you "invulnerable" to swords, all it does is change the sword from "long sharp blade" to "long heavy club". Wearing a mail-shirt, you are still likely to get bones broken and such, which is why you wear padding underneath armor. 

 

In all seriousness, a couple of layers of burlap, sewed together, (called a gambeson http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambeson)would quite easily protect you from knife/sword  slashes, as well as mace blows, so long as you dodged properly.

[Bororm 1156]

The first slab of meat was free hanging.  I'm not trying to defend that video as I stated it is a bit goofy as are all those demonstrations.  The point however is, without protection you wouldn't want to get hit by a sword or any sharp object as you say.  I think people take things too seriously and get too technical, at the end of the day do you want to let some one wack you with a sword and go "see, it didn't damage me as much as that video because I wasn't braced?" =P

 

This game isn't ever going to have dismemberment so that doesn't really matter.  It should result in fractures for sure, and honestly I wouldn't even mind if a couple hits would just knock some one out even if not kill them as that's the closest representation we've currently got to crippling some one.

Edited March 25, 2015 by Bororm

[xalienax 621]

Meh, chances are you can do that with basically any reasonably-sharp cutting implement, axe, knife, or sword. Take a closer look at what exactly they are doing: cutting meat, cardboard, and even thin rolled steel (cans), when the thing being cut is braced or otherwise prevented from moving. I can do that with a shitty folding knife. 

 

There are many knife (and sword and axe) "experts" (for lack of a better term) online that essentially make fun of the above Cold Steel presenters for their videos, and how seriously they take their methods of proving how good their products are. And Cold Steel, while a good company, is not "the best" when it comes to knives and other blades.

 

 In reality, swords (and axes, for that matter) did not "cut off body parts" in actual combat all that often. Dismembering (that is, the complete removal of a limb) is actually rather difficult, as 1) bone, especially living bone, is rather hard to cut through, unless you go "in-between" the joints, which is far more difficult than it seems 2) the limb is free-moving, that is, capable of moving with the blow, rather than being braced against it and taking all of the force, and 3) most combatants will try to move their limb out of the way, further lessening the force of the blow.

 

The above video is a perfect demonstration of why dismembering limbs is, and was, so difficult and rare. All the meat they are cutting? Braced against the blow, so the flesh will receive ALL the force from the edge. Let the meat free-swing, and chances are you won't have legs of pork being cut in half in one swing. Will it cut into the flesh, probably break the bone underneath? Almost certainly, but not completely cut off the limb.

 

Don't forget, even when wearing armor, you can still feel the force of a blow. A mail-shirt, for example, wouldn't make you "invulnerable" to swords, all it does is change the sword from "long sharp blade" to "long heavy club". Wearing a mail-shirt, you are still likely to get bones broken and such, which is why you wear padding underneath armor. 

 

In all seriousness, a couple of layers of burlap, sewed together, (called a gambeson http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambeson)would quite easily protect you from knife/sword  slashes, as well as mace blows, so long as you dodged properly.

slashes,  sure- stabs and blunt-force trauma of something like a mace, pipe wrenc, or hammer would still cause significant injury. you would either need considerably more padding to absorb the blow or some form of plate to spead the force over a larger area. (in reference to the 'few layers of burlap' statement)

[Whyherro123 2283]

slashes,  sure- stabs and blunt-force trauma of something like a mace, pipe wrenc, or hammer would still cause significant injury. you would either need considerably more padding to absorb the blow or some form of plate to spead the force over a larger area. (in reference to the 'few layers of burlap' statement)

Oh yes, I agree. Mail, and the gambeson-burlap idea, would only really protect against slashes. Bludgeoning blows (like maces, hammers, and clubs) and piercing blows (stabs from a knife/sword, spears) would go right through.

[xalienax 621]

Oh yes, I agree. Mail, and the gambeson-burlap idea, would only really protect against slashes. Bludgeoning blows (like maces, hammers, and clubs) and piercing blows (stabs from a knife/sword, sipears) would go right through.

yup. Mele weapons... especially heavy ones should be reliably devastating.. especially to a soft fleshy human with little protection (not wearing body armor of some description). the very realistic balance to this is that if your even remotely aware of your surroundings someone should never get the chance to use them on you.

[-Gews- 7443]

The mace is flanged, so it should do a bit more damage than a wrench I'd imagine.  I do agree that unlike the sword, it probably wouldn't necessarily be lethal with body shots however.

I agree it would be better, although a 14" pipe wrench weighs 3.6 lbs, so whack someone in the head and the end result would be similar... but a mace should not do more damage than the sledgehammer or axes as some folks on r/dayz expected. It's shouldn't kill people with a couple hits to the body. A mace like that is relatively light with a head usually under 1.5 lbs, I think a lot of people look at it and expect it to be some monstrous smashing weapon. The one in-game looks kind of oversized, but still.

The damage on most weapons needs some tweaking and fighting EXP zombies is very irritating even with axes.

Even historically, Axes have generally always been a lot more powerful than swords(depending on how you use it of course) But seeing how we only have a chopping action in Dayz, the sword wouldn't be as powerful as an Axe. Not to mention that it's some old abandoned sword, so even if it's "pristine" it's not as if it's freshly off the grinding stone so it probably would act more as a blunt weapons unless you stabbed hard with it.

On the other hand the firefighter and splitting axe are more "blunt wedge" than cutting implement. They aren't designed for combat. So it depends. A sharp sword can be devastating if the user is trained. But the sword in DayZ is an ahistorical replica that is swung like a baseball bat.

There are many knife (and sword and axe) "experts" (for lack of a better term) online that essentially make fun of the above Cold Steel presenters for their videos, and how seriously they take their methods of proving how good their products are. And Cold Steel, while a good company, is not "the best" when it comes to knives and other blades.

Cue Tosh.0... but with all their new CTS XHP blades they offer a huge bang for the buck though. People used to say "Recon 1? But you could get an Endura for the same price with better steel" (kinda like telling someone to buy a sports car instead of a Jeep because it's faster) but with $100 XHP blades that argument is completely squashed.

[JPWiser 251]

They are terrible... It's pretty disappointing that you have to hold them with two hands right now as well.