The 'war on snipers'

[hellcat420 212]

Do you people want realistic? Then your "civilian" character should be hitting nothing with that AK/M4 since, you know, they obviously have no training at all. Your character should miss terribly due to not knowing how to use any sights properly. Oh wait, you don't want that do you?

 

you have no clue what you are talking about. first off the ak was designed to be able to be used somewhat effectivly by people with no training. that is what makes it so popular with all sorts of rebels and "terrorists".  the m16 is a bit tougher to use, but a taking a couple shots is all somebody needs to do in order to be able to shoot the thing. maintenence on the m16 is where people with no training would run into problems. overall, using the sights on them is not much different than using the sights on civilian weapons. hell, i have never had any training, and i have no problems shooting stuff with my m4's and my ak47's.

Edited September 9, 2014 by hellcat420

[Evil Minion 943]

"Civilian" people can actually hit things with assault rifles given minor training - especially with the newer NATO versions. Recruits can reliably hit targets up to 200 meters away with little training. I think the DayZ survivor should fit the category "has a little experience with guns" - meaning he/she knows how to use them but is not a professional shooter of any kind.
 

both 7.62mm variants do the same amount of damage

Is there any source? Because my experience says different - but the last time I got shot by a Mosin was one or two patches ago and I don't like using the weapon. I still think if you do everything right your should be able to reliably hit your target at up to 800m (~1.9 MOA).

There is a table about weapon values but I have no idea if it is correct or how to translate those values into something we can work with (what does 0.0015 dispersion mean?).

 

PS: An Arctic Warfare seems to go down to <0.5 MOA accuracy (which is <0.25 MOA dispersion as accuracy is measured by the size of the group shot) so given the shooter handles it absolutely perfect you can "reliably shoot" human sized targets at distances up to 3000 meters meaning the shot seen in the video above (2475m) was indeed purely based on skill.

Edited September 9, 2014 by Evil Minion

[hellcat420 212]

until the m4 gets proper dispersion, i say keep the war on snipers going!!!

Edited September 9, 2014 by hellcat420

[Trizzo 632]

I think the DayZ survivor should fit the category "has a little experience with guns" - meaning he/she knows how to use them but is not a professional shooter of any kind.

 

Love ya but going to have to disagree entirely...dayz puts the tools and mechanics there and the user succeeds or fails based on their knowledge. This is the ethos.

[Evil Minion 943]

Gathered some data* about weapon accuracy:

• the AKM should shoot reliably at up to 300m (~5 MOA)
• the SKS should shoot reliably at up to 400m (3-4 MOA)
• the M4A1 should shoot reliably at up to 500m (~3 MOA)
• the Mosin should shoot reliably at up to 800m (~2 MOA)
• the SVD should shoot reliably at up to 1200m (~1.2 MOA)

All values are only based on dispersion without any sway, stance, fatigue, weapon/ammo damage, wind etc. taken into account. Thats what you should get if you are in prime condition and do everything right (so the values above are the distances where you should not miss because of dispersion alone).

 

*Internet data that is.

Edited September 9, 2014 by Evil Minion

[morthrane 2]

until the m4 gets proper dispersion, i say keep the war on snipers going!!!

What's proper dispersion for an M4?  Off a sandbag rest with a 16" barrel AR15, geissele SSA trigger and 4x32 horseshoe ACOG, I was able to make five shot groups at 100 yards under under 1 MOA.  That's a circle less than one inch across.  I see highpower competitors who have 20" bull barreled AR15s who can reliably hit a static mansized target at 600 yards... standing offhand, no support other than a sling.

 

I also see mall ninjas at the range who struggle to hit a 50 yard man sized target with their $3000 AR15 variants.

 

So what's proper?

[hellcat420 212]

What's proper dispersion for an M4?  Off a sandbag rest with a 16" barrel AR15, geissele SSA trigger and 4x32 horseshoe ACOG, I was able to make five shot groups at 100 yards under under 1 MOA.  That's a circle less than one inch across.  I see highpower competitors who have 20" bull barreled AR15s who can reliably hit a static mansized target at 600 yards... standing offhand, no support other than a sling.

 

I also see mall ninjas at the range who struggle to hit a 50 yard man sized target with their $3000 AR15 variants.

 

So what's proper?

well, m4's with worse dispersion than a shotgun are certainly not proper. 3moa at 300 yards would be good, an average shooter should be capable of that.

[gibonez 3633]

I watched this video earlier of a guy saying sniping is too easy as he always waits for a person to stand still in an elevated high traffic area known for snipers. People's bad choices make it look easier than it is. Try hitting a moving target at 700m with the server lag/desync and tell me its easy.

 

 

Thats the thing.

 

It does not matter if the shot is at 200m or 1900m the lack of wind, angular elevation adjustments and probably most importantly simulation of transonic instability makes it so its overly easy at any range.

 

Point is even hitting moving targets at those ranges is far far far too easy and should be exponentially harder.

 

 

 

well, m4's with worse dispersion than a shotgun are certainly not proper. 3moa at 300 yards would be good, an average shooter should be capable of that.

 

So you are suggesting the m4 be a 1 moa gun at 100 yards ?

 

That is insanely accurate especially for a 14.5 inch carbine firing regular military ball. 

Edited September 9, 2014 by gibonez

[Evil Minion 943]

3 MOA at 300 yards is about the same as 3 MOA at 100 yards. Thats because MOA (minute of arc) just represents the angle. Now in reality projectile ballistics might make 3 MOA at 300 yards a little more accurate (because it manages to stay just as stable) but if a simplified linear dispersion model is used (and the game will most likely use one) the distance doesn't matter.

 

But at first I also read it as 3 inch at 300 yards which would be 1 MOA - thats what a precision rifle got. Also keep in mind that 1 MOA dispersion leads to a 2 MOA group (because your shots spread in the opposite direction as well). The group is used as measure for accuracy.

Edited September 10, 2014 by Evil Minion

[Airborne28 4]

The game is slowly becoming more and more unfriendly toward snipers. There is the resting weapon sway introduced in .46, which makes shooting from over 400m a luck-based endeavor. There's also the high dispersion - relative to the weapon's actual accuracy and relative to what's useful as a sniping platform - which places the Mosin's COF at something larger than a player's head at as early as 500M, when in reality the Mosin was mechanically accurate at that level out to 1000m. There are also some miscellaneous factors. The mosin bullet does the same damage as an AK round, layered clothing and helmets can absorb two full mosin shots and protect the wearer, vast reduction of 7.62x51mm spawn rates, etc.

 

All of this is symptomatic of a negative developer attitude towards what has long been a beloved playstyle. Read this developer post where it is plainly stated the developers are trying to make sniping prohibitively difficult.

Ok. I read LOTS of the posts before throwing in. Heres the short version:

You are NOT a former grunt, t1 killer. You are a level 0 civilian.

In real life in the prone MOST people can't hit a 2m tall person at all unless they are stabalized. Last i checked there is no stabe.

If the devs included ALL variables (dope), most of you couldnt hit a target at 100m.

Should you be able to rest the gun? Alpha phase buddy, stop complaining.

The fact that targets can still be harvested with the very little difficulty beyond 400m is a gift, stop complaining.

Scopes sway in real life, you want a shooter, play a shooter or build one and sell it. There is 0 stabalization.

COF pertains to machine guns.

Running makes you tired, tired people lack accuracy at any range

Layering clothing should have little or nothing to do with damage but i understand why the devs did it.

Sniping should be harder, not everyone is capable of it.

Upshot, you are a survivor, not some experienced soldier.

This whole argument is " i want to kill people easily, And i dont like that its harder".

It should be hard, your a survivor, not an experienced soldier.

 

 

 

[☣BioHaze☣ 7337]

I;ve read just the first page so, I'm going to be really glib here and point out the obvious....

 

DOESN"T EVERY OTHER F*ING GAME THAT EVEN RESEMBLES AN FPS JUST GLOM ONTO THE SNIPER COMMUNITY TO BE POPULAR??

 

PVP is a great and exhilarating part of DayZ but it's only a PART of the experience.

 

Sorry not sorry but your COD/Halo/BF monies will work really well to build my MMO Survival Horror game.... BECAUSE THAT"S WHAT DAYZ WILL BE WHEN FINISHED.

 

Eventually, if you want to play some form of murdering sniper, you might need more hours of merely getting healthy and finding appropriate gear than you have patience for and you will invariably find a game where you spawn with a long range weapon or it's easy to acquire one upon spawning and you and a bunch of single minded folks can chase each other around in a marksmanship equivalent of grab-ass.

 

Cliff note version: There are 100 games out now, 100% complete that will be 100x better for sniping, and have much better competition (meaning you will actually need skill to snipe when everyone else is sniping and counter sniping only as well).

[Katana67 2907]

It should be hard, your a survivor, not an experienced soldier.

 

There's no background enforced on our avatars. Not one of an "inexperienced survivor" and not one of a "SOF operator." There's nothing either way. In the absence of something (i.e. a "military" background), you can't infer the presence of something else (i.e. a "civilian" background).

 

Our avatars are nothing, paper dolls, marionettes, empty vessels for the player to manipulate.

 

However, if we acknowledge some sort of quality ascribed to being a "survivor" it would be competency in the areas required to survive in a hostile environment. Said areas might (and likely do) include firearms proficiency.

 

If the player is good at X, he/she will be good at X. If he/she is bad at Y, he/she will suck at Y.

 

Problem is, there isn't a robust framework for the demonstration of "skills" yet.

Edited September 10, 2014 by Katana67

[JPWiser 251]

Drives me nuts when I can avoid 2 guys spewing round after round from their mosins out in a field at my group, only for a zombie to agro us flanking in the treeline and not them over 10 shots later.

I think for the relative short term for balance sake they just aren't putting a focus on ENCOURAGING that style of gameplay AT THE MOMENT.

No where did they say they are going to nerf sniping forever or anything like that, but with the environment and gameplay issues at the moment sniping has a huge advantage as you can't hear sounds properly at all and zombies are still whacked.

I agree sniping should be a cool part of this game and realistic, however before we focus on that how about we at least make it fairish.

If I cannot tell where a shot is coming from (or even hear the shot at all for the most part) and zombies attack me in the woods before someone firing off multiple sniper rounds nearby, I'm glad it's a little more difficult than what is probably realistic.

Edited September 10, 2014 by JPWiser

[gibonez 3633]

There's no background enforced on our avatars. Not one of an "inexperienced survivor" and not one of a "SOF operator." There's nothing either way. In the absence of something (i.e. a "military" background), you can't infer the presence of something else (i.e. a "civilian" background).

 

Our avatars are nothing, paper dolls, marionettes, empty vessels for the player to manipulate.

 

However, if we acknowledge some sort of quality ascribed to being a "survivor" it would be competency in the areas required to survive in a hostile environment. Said areas might (and likely do) include firearms proficiency.

 

If the player is good at X, he/she will be good at X. If he/she is bad at Y, he/she will suck at Y.

 

Problem is, there isn't a robust framework for the demonstration of "skills" yet.

 

Well technically they have said in the past the character you play is not a military trained soldier but instead just a civilian survivor.

 

[Bororm 1156]

Arguing about the background of your character is idiotic and has absolutely no bearing on how firearms should function.  Your character is whatever you want it to be, that's the entire point of a sandbox.

[gibonez 3633]

Arguing about the background of your character is idiotic and has absolutely no bearing on how firearms should function.  Your character is whatever you want it to be, that's the entire point of a sandbox.

 

Absolutely however the characters should look and feel civilian. The shooting animations, stances and general mannerism of the characters still feel a little too military imo.

[Etherimp 1323]

Absolutely however the characters should look and feel civilian. The shooting animations, stances and general mannerism of the characters still feel a little too military imo.

 

 

There is no "military" or "civilian" way to hold a gun or stand... Just a "correct" way and an "incorrect" way.

[Rauchsauger 94]

I;ve read just the first page so, I'm going to be really glib here and point out the obvious....

 

DOESN"T EVERY OTHER F*ING GAME THAT EVEN RESEMBLES AN FPS JUST GLOM ONTO THE SNIPER COMMUNITY TO BE POPULAR??

 

PVP is a great and exhilarating part of DayZ but it's only a PART of the experience.

 

Sorry not sorry but your COD/Halo/BF monies will work really well to build my MMO Survival Horror game.... BECAUSE THAT"S WHAT DAYZ WILL BE WHEN FINISHED.

 

Eventually, if you want to play some form of murdering sniper, you might need more hours of merely getting healthy and finding appropriate gear than you have patience for and you will invariably find a game where you spawn with a long range weapon or it's easy to acquire one upon spawning and you and a bunch of single minded folks can chase each other around in a marksmanship equivalent of grab-ass.

 

Cliff note version: There are 100 games out now, 100% complete that will be 100x better for sniping, and have much better competition (meaning you will actually need skill to snipe when everyone else is sniping and counter sniping only as well).

 

 

Ahahaha nope,

 

the longer it takes to get to a specific level the more risk/reward ist in the balance.

Also I will enjoy sending some to respawn knowing he spent hours to acquire his gear instead of duping it.

[q.S Sachiel 470]

to stir the pot, i'll argue that the character is 30y+.

That age group (particularly 40+) in my neck of the woods were born with a rifle in their arms.

And let's not forget... Eastern European....

not to mention the Chernarus backstory.

Also, my character is a Hindu God.  Every time I die, I am reborn inception style, and the skills and knowledge is imprinted into my new vessel.  I trust you when you say that some characters are no professionals though.  I've got a few ears and toes to prove for this.  Not all reborn equal i spose.

Edited September 10, 2014 by q.S Sachiel

[Bororm 1156]

Yeah exactly.  I'm sure there's a few people who embody that stereotype you're raging against BioHaze, but the whole appeal for a lot of people is that there's investment in DayZ.  It makes the pvp all the sweeter, and it makes killing people more satisfying.

 

The people who play for that risk/reward style of pvp, are always going to play for the pvp regardless of the other factors, and most with any sense realize those other factors just make it all the better.

 

Also, besides arma there really aren't a lot of good games for long range sniping in a multiplayer environment.  The one that comes closest to mind is battlefield obviously, but the series has gone way down hill in general and the maps have become incredibly linear.  Battlefield also legitimately does hate snipers and has a multitude of shitty mechanics involved.

 

DayZ is basically the ideal game to snipe in if you actually enjoy that type of game play.  You're offered a huge map, with various points of interest, and complete freedom in finding a firing position.  The view distance is awesome even if the network bubble restricts shots to 1000m maximum.  As some one who plays some arma 3 as well, I find sniping in DayZ more of a challenge and more satisfying in general.

[Evil Minion 943]

"Civilian" does not have to mean "has no idea how to fire a gun". In fact gun some enthusiasts might be better a shooting things than many soldiers. Hunters in particular are practically snipers that shoot other animals instead of their own kind. Now I don't want to explain away improbable gun skills by saying "each survivor was an expert hunter that spent his spare time practising at the shotting range" but for the sake of gameplay its probably better not to apply things like "faulty stance", "bad grip" etc. to your character. Rather shift the skill to the player by adding things like sway, wind, bullet drop, bullet speed, fatigue for holding and so on.

 

Now back to dispersion: This table has some values that may or may not be the correct ingame dispersion numbers. Now I don't know exactly which unit is used but radian seems reasonable. If its indeed radian - most rifles got too much:

• 0.006 rad correspond with ~75m effective range (seems reasonable for handguns)
• 0.003 rad correspond with ~150m effective range (also reasonable for the weapons in question)
• 0.002 rad correspond with ~220m effective range (Longhorn)
• 0.0015 rad correspond with ~300m effective range (the right amount for the AKM - but not enough for the other weapons)
• 0.001 rad correspond with ~440m effective range (which means the Mosin is about half as accurate as it should be)

So while everyone is crying about sway the true issue is actually the current dispersion (given the values are correct and actually radians).

Edited September 10, 2014 by Evil Minion

[SomeCallMeNomad (DayZ) 89]

Arguing about the background of your character is idiotic and has absolutely no bearing on how firearms should function.  Your character is whatever you want it to be, that's the entire point of a sandbox.

Thank you

[LimeMobber 47]

trtk, on 08 Sept 2014 - 06:14 AM, said:

That sniper may seem invincible from 800m, but sneak up behind them and take advantage of their low rate of fire, scoped tunnel vision, and low weapon dexterity.

 

Oh wait I forgot how snipers had a giant glowing neon sign over their head telling you where they are so you know there is even one around to kill. :rolleyes:

[Evil Minion 943]

Sneaking up behind snipers is too weak in the current build for two reasons:

1. A sniper in prone position can spin around on his belly without any trouble. So while sneaking up on a prone shooter in reality gives you a significant initiative bonus even if he manages to notice you in DayZ it isn't different from sneaking up on a standing shooter. Also I believe this spinning move is completely silent.
2. Gun sounds are pretty quiet right now (if you can hear them in the first place). Its like everyone is using a (very effective) silencer - most of the time you can only hear the bullet impact so you often have no idea where the sniper might hide.

The solutions are pretty simple though: Don't allow spinning around while prone (and also while sitting thats just stupid and ugly) but allow for some kind of restriced firing arc (more than free aim but significantly less than 180 degrees) while prone and add some louder and more powerful gun sounds you can hear from quite a distance.
 

Snipers should be nerfed:

• add weather effects affecting the bullet
• add different sway for different weapons
• add fatigue for aiming over a longer time (depending on weapon weight)
• restrict firing/turning arc while prone/sitting (see above)
• louder gun sounds (see above)
• non-muzzle attachments should not affect dispersion
• more survival aspects
• sniping loot should be pretty rare and might require frequent maintainance

But also buffed:

• authentic dispersion values (making a Mosin hit reliable at up to 800m)
• being able to hit a target that is further away than 1000m
• authentic damage values/protection by clothing (not speaking of one-hit-kills but rifle shots should be very powerful)
• attachments should significantly reduce sway and recoil (bipod should prevent fatigue)
• high grass etc. should better conceal players over longer distances
• running speed should be toned down to be more authentic

Edited September 10, 2014 by Evil Minion

[killerpixel 49]

Can we maybe not forget that this new, very much overdone weapon sway does not only affect all you wannabe snipers? Pick up an AK, aim down the sights and then tell me that's realistic/authentic. Because really, with any decent assault rifle, you can hit someone at 400 meters with iron sights, in real life at least, not in DayZ because the sway is overdone.

 

And the "you're playing a civilian" argument doesn't count in the "sway debate". I served a few years in the German military, without any prior experience of even HOLDING a rifle. And when I picked up that G36 for the first time, there was only minimal sway (and that's while looking through the 3.5x scope, not reflex or irons). It gets more the longer you hold the gun of course, but that's not how it is in DayZ, the moment you aim the gun is all over the place, which makes even the assault rifles just about useless at longer ranges.

 

Oh and another thing. You Snipers deal with the Mosin dispersion that you feel so overdone. We M4 fans had to deal with the unreal dispersion on that for MONTHS, what the Mosin has now is nothing compared to that, so I'm glad someone else gets that for a change. ;)