What "End Game Gear" Should Theoretically Be Like At Release

[hannibaldaplaya 1095]

Personally, I believe that end game gear, meaning that you have been around nearly the whole map, been in several engagements, and survived for a good amount of time, should constitute;

 

- A reliable melee weapon that doubles as a tool, such as an axe, pickaxe, hatchet, or similar.

- A semi-automatic rifle, pump-action or semi-automatic shotgun, or a  fully-automatic AK-variant or warsaw pact assault rifle; If you're lucky, some NATO weaponry.

- 30 - 45 rounds, shells, or slugs for your primary, which would be more then enough ammunition. Due to the fact I believe ammunition should be like gold, most players would use weapons in semi-automatic mode to conserve valuable ammunition.

- If your gun requires magazines, two or three magazines, though even at this point in the game, having all of them full would be incredibly tricky.

- A sidearm, be it an obrez, sawn off, handgun, or revolver.

- Ammunition for your sidearm, as well, and one or two magazines if your weapon requires one, though due to some of the weapon's lower magazine sizes, such as the M1911, having full magazines on standby won't be as uncommon as one toting around 30-round AKM magazines.

- A hunting backpack or similar, due to its slight camouflage and ability to carry quite a lot of things.

- Some sort of kevlar vest, along with a ballistic helmet or similar for slight head protection.

- Tracksuit!

 

As you can see, I want DayZ to be a game where rounds are conserved and wasting a bullet is a moment where you might swear at yourself for wasting such a valuable damn thing.

 

I also want NATO weaponry to be a bit more rare then warsaw pact weaponry, as it currently is now. 5.56 will be more rare and expensive then 5.45, if the devs don't decide to add the round due to some bullshit excuse! Most interesting assault rifles that aren't western use 5.45, and without the round we can not have said interesting assault rifles. I would rock an AN94 if I had the luck to find one, due to its two-round burst capabilities, which would devastate any form of armor and allow me to put two rounds down range at nearly the exact same spot.

 

The lack of willingness to add new ammunition types and variants is one that makes me uneasy and pessimistic about the devs...

 

[Katana67 2907]

without the round we can not have said interesting assault rifles. I would rock an AN94 if I had the luck to find one, due to its two-round burst capabilities, which would devastate any form of armor and allow me to put two rounds down range at nearly the exact same spot.

 

The lack of willingness to add new ammunition types and variants is one that makes me uneasy and pessimistic about the devs...

 

Well, granted, we have two very different ideas on what should constitute an "end-game" loadout. Mine is more akin to the mod, especially with regard to weapons.

 

However, I still categorically reject the assertion that we need 5.45x39 to have certain weapons. An overwhelming majority of 5.45x39 variants, have 7.62x39 counterparts. A round which we've already got.

 

The AK-74M has the AK-103 (not that it matters, as we've got the AK-101).

 

The AKS-74U has the AKMSU.

 

The RPK-74 has the RPK.

 

The AEK-971 has the AEK-973.

 

The only weapon that is solely available in 5.45x39, as a platform/archetype, is the AN-94. And I suspect it would be viewed as "just another AK" to most, no matter how it's dressed up.

 

I want 5.45x39, but we don't need it to add certain weapons which are essentially interchangeable. If they want a HBAR AK, they add the RPK. If they want a SBR AK, they add the AKMSU. If they want a modernized AK, they add the AK-103/AEK-971. The same applies to the majority of bullpup AKs as well (and tangentially, the OTs-14 which also has a 7.62x39 variant).

 

That and the number of weapon platforms in which 5.45x39 is used is pretty well limited to the AK-pattern/derivative weapons. Whereas a round like 5.56x45 is used in a much wider variety of independent weapon platforms (i.e. G36, L85, AR-15, AUG, etc. just on the assault rifle side).

 

To my knowledge, there's no widely-used non-AK derivative assault rifle platform out there in 5.45x39. There's no widely used/produced 5.45x39 belt-fed light machine gun out there, and even if there were... we'd have the RPD to cover that as well.

Edited August 27, 2014 by Katana67

[grindstone50k 208]

I wouldn't mind more variants that use different calibers, as long as when the game is balanced, the ammo is made more scarce. It would make having to choose between certain ammo and guns when scavenging.

Edited August 27, 2014 by Grindstone

[hellcat420 212]

this is a sandbox game. endgame gear is whatever gear you want to use.

[St. Jimmy 1631]

I don't care about stuff like this especially when stamina system kicks in. In a team a heavily equipped guy could be a good thing but if the heavy guy starts to lonewolf zombies should be deadly. Things should be balanced so every gear is "end game gear"

/OK I was too negative. End gear should be something like:

Matches or lighter

Warm and light clothes

Small axe

Knife

Compass

Battery and torch

Rain protection if you want to keep yourself dry

Backpack

Waterbottle

Some medic stuff

Some melee weapon

Some gun for tough situations. Assault rifle prefered if you're alone

Edited August 27, 2014 by St. Jimmy

[Helix2000 128]

Some gun for tough situations. Assault rifle prefered if you're alone

NAH MATE. B95 for the win

[Irish. 4886]

The only End Game Gear come final release will be

 

Edited August 28, 2014 by lrish

[Katana67 2907]

 

This is pretty much how I want overall player gearing to work, but only to a point, as is demonstrated by the end of the video.

 

You have the initial survivor (the main character), who is entirely at the whim of his/her environment. He/she is poorly armed, poorly equipped, and without major resources.

 

You have the survivor who's beginning to make the environment work for him/her (the supporting character). He/she is moderately armed, has a middling range of support gear, and is actively engaged in marginally shaping the landscape or the resources of Chernarus.

 

You have the survivor who has, aptly, survived (the high-speed-low-drag villains). This survivor has conquered the landscape, and is actively influencing the circumstances through the resources acquired/utilized. He/she is well armed, well-stocked, and therefore has the capability to pursue tangential (i.e. non-survival) endeavors such as vehicle acquisition, base construction, etc.

 

However, the caveat that I would put forth, is the need for each of these three distinct "levels" of gearing to have the ability to fall or fail. Thereby creating a cycle within a life. Death can no longer be the sole determinant in deeming the beginning and end of a character, wherein the progression from unequipped survivor to heavily-equipped death dealer is a two-way street. You got that cool assault rifle? Neat! Good luck finding magazines/ammunition for it. Think them NVGs are pretty dope? Good luck finding batteries to keep it going, and enjoy the rain ruining it eventually.

[C0bbler 17]

I see the endgame as more than just gear too. A boarded up house or series of houses. Access to a functional vehicle. A hideout. Things that impact the world itself.

[igor-vk 909]

Well, granted, we have two very different ideas on what should constitute an "end-game" loadout. Mine is more akin to the mod, especially with regard to weapons.

 

However, I still categorically reject the assertion that we need 5.45x39 to have certain weapons. An overwhelming majority of 5.45x39 variants, have 7.62x39 counterparts. A round which we've already got.

 

 

Having more calibers can be interesting experience. Yesterday I played on experimental, it has less gear than stable. I found CZ725 and P1, but I found shotgun shels, .22, and .357 ammo. Situation pushed me to search more buildings than usual.

[Trizzo 632]

End game gear is smaller, high quality shit doing the job more efficiently.

For example, a 4 size stone currently sharpens the log splitter. Rare loot would be a diamond sharpening rod of 1 size and it would give the axe/fish hooks/edged weapons a razor sharp edge dealing higher bleeds and more yield for a given action be it success at fishing or butchering meat and it will not degrade with use.

I think a SAM splint is another prime example for understanding the theoretical framework for what end game gear is meant to do.

Instead of stick, rag which is 5 slots and one time use this thing would store for 1 slot and after a time of healing you could refold as per it's intended use. Simple, elegant and completely covers it's intended area.

Bleh! All I see is guns, guns, guns.... How boring. Of course guns are part of the equation but honestly...how many more bang sticks do we rally need. There is plenty of carnage going around.

Edited August 28, 2014 by Trizzo

[alldaypk 63]

I don't mind assault rifles, Sniper rifles, LMGs, full tactical military gear with pockets galore, huge backpacks and camo tents, humvees with mounted machine guns, NVGs or thermal scopes, SO LONG AS AMMO IS RARE AS FUCK, and electricity/fuel is a godsend.

The most ammo I want to expect on someone is perhaps a full 30rnd mag and a collection of random pistol/shotgun cartridges. I don't care if everyone's got an AK (it's Russia) so long as no one has more than 30 rounds.

[Katana67 2907]

Having more calibers can be interesting experience. Yesterday I played on experimental, it has less gear than stable. I found CZ725 and P1, but I found shotgun shels, .22, and .357 ammo. Situation pushed me to search more buildings than usual.

 

I agree. But I don't think 5.45x39 in particular is needed.

 

Other calibers, like 7.62x51/.308 (which we're getting eventually) and a dedicated sniper rifle round are needed in my opinion because they actually allow the developers to better balance how the player interacts with certain weapon archetypes. Whereas we've already got two assault rifle cartridges already (i.e. 5.56x45 and 7.62x39 respectively). Much in the same way that .380 ACP wasn't needed as we already had 9x19 and .45 ACP.

 

I would love it if 5.45x39 were included. But people use the argument of "we need 5.45x39 to add X, Y, Z weapons to the game."

 

Which isn't necessarily the case, as most 5.45x39 weapons have 7.62x39 counterparts (a round which we've already got).

 

Now, if folks were to make the argument (as I have) that it would add variety and an extra layer of flexibility in how the developers can tweak the ammunition-weapon-utilization relationship with certain weapons (i.e. making AKs the mid-range selection as they were in the mod) then I would fully support that. But they don't. All folks say about 5.45x39 is how big a travesty that it is that it's been overlooked, and how we need it in the game, or how we need it to add certain weapon archetypes (which have 7.62x39 variants). Often times without any supporting argument.

[Chaingunfighter 917]

Personally, I believe that end game gear, meaning that you have been around nearly the whole map, been in several engagements, and survived for a good amount of time, should constitute;

 

- A reliable melee weapon that doubles as a tool, such as an axe, pickaxe, hatchet, or similar.

- A semi-automatic rifle, pump-action or semi-automatic shotgun, or a  fully-automatic AK-variant or warsaw pact assault rifle; If you're lucky, some NATO weaponry.

- 30 - 45 rounds, shells, or slugs for your primary, which would be more then enough ammunition. Due to the fact I believe ammunition should be like gold, most players would use weapons in semi-automatic mode to conserve valuable ammunition.

- If your gun requires magazines, two or three magazines, though even at this point in the game, having all of them full would be incredibly tricky.

- A sidearm, be it an obrez, sawn off, handgun, or revolver.

- Ammunition for your sidearm, as well, and one or two magazines if your weapon requires one, though due to some of the weapon's lower magazine sizes, such as the M1911, having full magazines on standby won't be as uncommon as one toting around 30-round AKM magazines.

- A hunting backpack or similar, due to its slight camouflage and ability to carry quite a lot of things.

- Some sort of kevlar vest, along with a ballistic helmet or similar for slight head protection.

- Tracksuit!

 

As you can see, I want DayZ to be a game where rounds are conserved and wasting a bullet is a moment where you might swear at yourself for wasting such a valuable damn thing.

 

I also want NATO weaponry to be a bit more rare then warsaw pact weaponry, as it currently is now. 5.56 will be more rare and expensive then 5.45, if the devs don't decide to add the round due to some bullshit excuse! Most interesting assault rifles that aren't western use 5.45, and without the round we can not have said interesting assault rifles. I would rock an AN94 if I had the luck to find one, due to its two-round burst capabilities, which would devastate any form of armor and allow me to put two rounds down range at nearly the exact same spot.

 

The lack of willingness to add new ammunition types and variants is one that makes me uneasy and pessimistic about the devs...

The problem with this idea is that it's basically proposing to create an endgame of content that already mostly exists in the game. Most of the weapon types are well covered and the rest of the gear is too.

 

As has been said before, the real endgame for you is just the point at which you've acquired everything you need to the point that you feel you're at your maximum/optimum effective capacity and no longer need to focus on looting. For some, that could be a Blaze 95 and improvised backpack, for others, that could be an M249 SAW and full ballistic gear.

 

Should ammunition be rare? Yes. Should it be rare to the point that the end-game is essentially getting a magazine for a rifle? No. Overall the more useful stuff could definitely be toned down in spawn rates, but I'm sort of iffy on the whole "CaveZ" idea where people seem to want sharpened sticks, improvised bows, and some looted melee weapons to be the majority of combat.

 

 

Afterwards the OP just turns into a rant about them not adding more calibers, even though they've made it quite clear that they're doing it for a reason. Increasing the overall amount of ammunition calibers for variants of guns that can be done in pre-existing calibers and/or aren't functionally or at least variably different from things that can already be made is pointless. For one thing, it takes even longer to develop, and secondly, it's being done for guns that aren't special (gameplay-wise).

5.45x39mm, as Katana67 has specified, would be an acceptable addition to the game. But unlike most, who are just appealing to their own emotions, ala "I need X specific gun because it's Y" (usually 'Y' is "because realism", which is not a sound rational argument.), Katana gives a reasonable explanation, in that it would allow the devs to better divide and balance weapons based on their effectiveness, with the added bonus that it allows for some cool guns that also happen to be realistic.

 

But it's not some "bullshit" excuse that they don't want to add one specific caliber, say 7.62x38N for the Nagant M1895, just so they can have the Nagant M1895. The Nagant is definitely common in Eastern Europe, but if it uses ammunition that is quite literally used in just it, no one would ever have any reason to pick it up. It's not anything special compared to other revolvers, and it's stuck with a completely unique ammunition type, so why would people want to take it? 5.45x39mm is not really anything different, it's essentially only used on AK platforms or derivatives, and most cases have 7.62x39mm, 5.56x45mm, or other caliber derivatives.

 

Most people could argue that guns like the P1 are useless (and I tend to agree), but you're still more likely to see someone with a P1, simply because 9x19mm ammunition is versatile, and at the very least people use it as a backup weapon until they can find something better.

 

 

 

 

Oh, and most assault rifles that aren't western actually use 7.62x39mm, 5.45x39mm is a smaller part, that still sees a wide use, in just a fewer number of firearms. That said, a lot of firearms that don't come from the west still use 5.56x45mm, 7.62x51mm, or other western ammunition, and likewise western guns often use calibers like 7.62x39mm or 7.62x54mmR. Hell, Russia has it's own AR-15 manufacturers, and I wouldn't call those western, even though they're based on a western platform.

[igor-vk 909]

I gave it a few thoughts, 7.62x39mm is used world wide. In every shit hole in Africa  or south east Asia. 5.45x39mm is more rare, used in USSR and maybe few Varsaw pact countries. So, most common weapon should be AKM, and its ammo. Than 5.45x39mm, and last 5.56x45 and 7,62x51. 

I hope for more types of NATO assoult rifles, but harder to find. 

[Parazight 1599]

The lack of willingness to add new ammunition types and variants is one that makes me uneasy and pessimistic about the devs...

First, they're not unwilling to add new ammunition types. They just added another type with this very last patch!

Second, I've no idea why you're going on about weapon ammo rarity. That balancing isn't done during Alpha.

Third, I think it's hilarious that you argue for weapon ammo to be rarer and then, in the same post, suggest that they add more ammo types.

[Cap'n (DayZ) 1827]

Well, granted, we have two very different ideas on what should constitute an "end-game" loadout. Mine is more akin to the mod, especially with regard to weapons.

 

However, I still categorically reject the assertion that we need 5.45x39 to have certain weapons. An overwhelming majority of 5.45x39 variants, have 7.62x39 counterparts. A round which we've already got.

 

The AK-74M has the AK-103 (not that it matters, as we've got the AK-101).

 

The AKS-74U has the AKMSU.

 

The RPK-74 has the RPK.

 

The AEK-971 has the AEK-973.

 

The only weapon that is solely available in 5.45x39, as a platform/archetype, is the AN-94. And I suspect it would be viewed as "just another AK" to most, no matter how it's dressed up.

 

I want 5.45x39, but we don't need it to add certain weapons which are essentially interchangeable. If they want a HBAR AK, they add the RPK. If they want a SBR AK, they add the AKMSU. If they want a modernized AK, they add the AK-103/AEK-971. The same applies to the majority of bullpup AKs as well (and tangentially, the OTs-14 which also has a 7.62x39 variant).

 

That and the number of weapon platforms in which 5.45x39 is used is pretty well limited to the AK-pattern/derivative weapons. Whereas a round like 5.56x45 is used in a much wider variety of independent weapon platforms (i.e. G36, L85, AR-15, AUG, etc. just on the assault rifle side).

 

To my knowledge, there's no widely-used non-AK derivative assault rifle platform out there in 5.45x39. There's no widely used/produced 5.45x39 belt-fed light machine gun out there, and even if there were... we'd have the RPD to cover that as well.

 

Every time you mention the 7.62 versions of 5.45 weapons, I die inside. Why? Because these things are mostly just variants that have never really seen extensive use, and wouldn't make the least sense. ESPECIALLY the AKMSU. I despise the idea of comprise for a simple problem that arose because, apparently, the lowest common denominator consists of people who frequently forget how to read.

 

5.45 is heavily widespread in former PACT and CIS area. Would it be too hard to just implement the damn thing?

[Hetstaine 10852]

A cave boarded up with bushes, branches and rocks, bearskin rug, elk, chicken and fish stocks, potato still for cave made vodka, warm clothes, ushunka, wellies, fishing gear, animal traps, crossbow and bow.

[Katana67 2907]

Every time you mention the 7.62 versions of 5.45 weapons, I die inside. Why? Because these things are mostly just variants that have never really seen extensive use, and wouldn't make the least sense. ESPECIALLY the AKMSU. I despise the idea of comprise for a simple problem that arose because, apparently, the lowest common denominator consists of people who frequently forget how to read.

 

5.45 is heavily widespread in former PACT and CIS area. Would it be too hard to just implement the damn thing?

 

Well, "dying inside" sure beats actually engaging logically with the debate. If you despise the mere idea of compromise then I cannot discuss this with you.

 

I want 5.45x39. I just don't view it as a necessity as is so often asserted. Especially when we've got a round which already provides for every weapon archetype that would be provided for by 5.45x39.

 

My issue is the justification used to say "this is why we need," 5.45x39 and not with the fact that people want 5.45x39. The justifications primarily lay with the fact that 5.45x39 would "allow the developers to add X, Y, Z weapons." I take issue with that, as the same weapon archetypes can be provided for with the currently included 7.62x39 cartridge.

 

The AK-101 was implemented, yet I don't see many folks (aside from the usual suspects, both here and on Reddit) taking issue with it having replaced the AK-74M. Because, like Torchia said when this whole debate kicked off, the majority of people appear not to care either way. People can't tell the difference, because there really isn't one both aesthetically and functionally as far as DayZ is concerned.

 

The same can be said of the AKMSU, I don't care (even being a firearms enthusiast) that it could be included instead of the AKS-74U, because it's the same concept (i.e. a SBR AK in 7.62x39 instead of 5.45x39).

 

The RPK has seen extensive global use since the early 1960s.

 

The AK-103 has also seen extensive global use as of late, in being used by Russia as well as many prominent export-receiving nations (like Libya).

 

The AKMSU is the only one that could possibly be an outlier, and even then, there are plenty of SBR AKs out there that could take its place (see the AK-102, AKMSU, AK104, Zastava M92, AIMR, or any number of Bulgarian-made 5.56x45 variants) which are chambered in either 5.56x45 or 7.62x39. Not to mention the Vityaz SN, the standard-issue Russian 9x19 (another round already included in DayZ) SBR AK SMG.

 

If you're willing to deem something as "unlikely" then you'd probably have to cut out almost every single weapon in DayZ currently. As well as the oft-touted AN-94, which is probably rarer and far more bereft of real-world use than any of the above weapons. Same can be said, to a lesser extent, of the AEK series as well.

 

And the all-powerful STALKER exemplar also featured an AKMSU (rather than an AKS-74U).

 

 

So there's that...

Edited August 29, 2014 by Katana67

[Chaingunfighter 917]

Well, "dying inside" sure beats actually engaging logically with the debate. If you despise the mere idea of compromise then I cannot discuss this with you.

 

I want 5.45x39. I just don't view it as a necessity as is so often asserted. Especially when we've got a round which already provides for every weapon archetype that would be provided for by 5.45x39.

 

My issue is the justification used to say "this is why we need," 5.45x39 and not with the fact that people want 5.45x39. The justifications primarily lay with the fact that 5.45x39 would "allow the developers to add X, Y, Z weapons." I take issue with that, as the same weapon archetypes can be provided for with the currently included 7.62x39 cartridge.

 

The AK-101 was implemented, yet I don't see many folks (aside from the usual suspects, both here and on Reddit) taking issue with it having replaced the AK-74M. Because, like Torchia said when this whole debate kicked off, the majority of people appear not to care either way. People can't tell the difference, because there really isn't one both aesthetically and functionally as far as DayZ is concerned.

 

The same can be said of the AKMSU, I don't care (even being a firearms enthusiast) that it could be included instead of the AKS-74U, because it's the same concept (i.e. a SBR AK in 7.62x39 instead of 5.45x39).

 

The RPK has seen extensive global use since the early 1960s.

 

The AK-103 has also seen extensive global use as of late, in being used by Russia as well as many prominent export-receiving nations (like Libya).

 

The AKMSU is the only one that could possibly be an outlier, and even then, there are plenty of SBR AKs out there that could take its place (see the AK-102, AKMSU, AK104, Zastava M92, AIMR, or any number of Bulgarian-made 5.56x45 variants) which are chambered in either 5.56x45 or 7.62x39.

 

If you're willing to deem something as "unlikely" then you'd probably have to cut out almost every single weapon in DayZ currently. As well as the oft-touted AN-94, which is probably rarer and far more bereft of real-world use than any of the above weapons. Same can be said, to a lesser extent, of the AEK series as well.

 

And the all-powerful STALKER exemplar also featured an AKMSU (rather than an AKS-74U).

 

 

So there's that...

 

To be fair to STALKER, it did still use 5.45x39mm ammunition, but it was modeled after the AKMSU as you've stated. And another thing about the almighty STALKER that really bothers me was that they didn't include 7.62x39mm in it, yet it's supposedly the harbinger of realism when it comes to post-apocalyptic games set in Eastern Europe (to a select few on the DayZ forums and Reddit, that is)

 

 

Every time you mention the 7.62 versions of 5.45 weapons, I die inside. Why? Because these things are mostly just variants that have never really seen extensive use, and wouldn't make the least sense. ESPECIALLY the AKMSU. I despise the idea of comprise for a simple problem that arose because, apparently, the lowest common denominator consists of people who frequently forget how to read.

 

5.45 is heavily widespread in former PACT and CIS area. Would it be too hard to just implement the damn thing?

 

It's not the fact that it's "hard" to implement, it's the fact that they're trying to limit the overall amount of calibers so that rarity can be balanced in a way that ammunition is available while still rare. 5.45x39mm's biggest drawback to implementation is the fact that it's almost exclusively limited to AK derivatives (and a few other rifles and LMGs.) Most of said derivatives also have 7.62x39mm, 5.56x45mm, or alternate caliber variants that can be done instead.

 

It isn't because they "can't read", it's because they don't want to over-complicate the ammunition system.

 

At this point there's no more arguing about whether it will come in, because the devs have apparently decided on the 1.0 release list of weapons already. If they say no, it's not happening at all, but if they say yes, then it will.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Chaingunfighter

[Katana67 2907]

To be fair to STALKER, it did still use 5.45x39mm ammunition, but it was modeled after the AKMSU as you've stated. And another thing about the almighty STALKER that really bothers me was that they didn't include 7.62x39mm in it, yet it's supposedly the harbinger of realism when it comes to post-apocalyptic games set in Eastern Europe (to a select few on the DayZ forums and Reddit, that is)

 

That makes it worse in my opinion! Not only was the AKS-74U not included, but the AKMSU that they chose to render wasn't even chambered in 7.62x39! At least DayZ attempts to reconcile the two.

 

Yes, STALKER is perhaps the most blaring demonstration of the hypocrisy inherent in those who make the "realism" argument. I have seen the same folks who argue for absolute "realism" in DayZ, use STALKER over and over as an example. Yet it has a majority (15 "Western" weapons, 12 "Eastern" weapons) of "Western" firearms.

 

Including such stars as the non-existent .45 ACP/9x39 Desert Eagle, LR-300, suppressed L85s, fully kitted FN F2000s, and nigh-prototypical AN-94s. Not to mention an entirely fictional gauss rifle!

 

People typically come back with the "well, these weapons were rare in STALKER." Cool! That vindicates my point even more. Weapons do not have to be categorically dismissed from inclusion, because they can be made rare and your favorite "realistic" and "plausible" and "likely" AK-pattern weapons can be the norm! Cake, eating it too! What a concept!

Edited August 29, 2014 by Katana67

[-Gews- 7443]

Much in the same way that .380 ACP wasn't needed as we already had 9x19 and .45 ACP.

 

I would love it if 5.45x39 were included. But people use the argument of "we need 5.45x39 to add X, Y, Z weapons to the game."

 

Which isn't necessarily the case, as most 5.45x39 weapons have 7.62x39 counterparts (a round which we've already got).

We don't NEED .380 or .45 ACP either, all handguns could be 9mm. Same with 7.62x39, there are 5.56x45mm AKs, SKS could be replaced with any one of several "civilian" semi-automatics. We don't "need" it for "mechanical" reasons, people want it because it's "authentic", "realistic", etc. It is only needed if they wanted to accurately portray the same Chernarus from ARMA II or create the most plausible weapon list for some "authentic" ex-Soviet country.

[Katana67 2907]

We don't NEED .380 or .45 ACP either, all handguns could be 9mm. Same with 7.62x39, there are 5.56x45mm AKs, SKS could be replaced with any one of several "civilian" semi-automatics. We don't "need" it for "mechanical" reasons, people want it because it's "authentic", "realistic", etc. It is only needed if they wanted to accurately portray the same Chernarus from ARMA II or create the most plausible weapon list for some "authentic" ex-Soviet country.

 

It's needed, in my opinion, to allow them to tier the rarity of weapons inasmuch as it relates to the rarity of ammunition. Mechanical? No. Pragmatic, certainly.

 

Rendering a discrepancy in the rarity of a weapon's overall use (which is all that matters) cannot be done with one round, hence why I think 7.62x51 needs to be de-amalgamated.

 

We do not need (although I welcome more) any more assault rifle cartridges to show discrepancy in terms of rarity, because it... at a bare minimum... requires two data points (i.e. 7.62x39 and 5.56x45) for there to be a discrepancy in ammunition rarity at all amongst these weapons.

 

We didn't need .380 ACP because they already had two data points (i.e. .45 ACP and 9x19) with which to show discrepancy in ammunition rarity. Couldn't do so with just 9x19, because it would be one fixed level of rarity (vice two distinct levels, hence the discrepancy).

Edited August 29, 2014 by Katana67

[Cap'n (DayZ) 1827]

Well, "dying inside" sure beats actually engaging logically with the debate. If you despise the mere idea of compromise then I cannot discuss this with you.

 

I want 5.45x39. I just don't view it as a necessity as is so often asserted. Especially when we've got a round which already provides for every weapon archetype that would be provided for by 5.45x39.

 

My issue is the justification used to say "this is why we need," 5.45x39 and not with the fact that people want 5.45x39. The justifications primarily lay with the fact that 5.45x39 would "allow the developers to add X, Y, Z weapons." I take issue with that, as the same weapon archetypes can be provided for with the currently included 7.62x39 cartridge.

 

The AK-101 was implemented, yet I don't see many folks (aside from the usual suspects, both here and on Reddit) taking issue with it having replaced the AK-74M. Because, like Torchia said when this whole debate kicked off, the majority of people appear not to care either way. People can't tell the difference, because there really isn't one both aesthetically and functionally as far as DayZ is concerned.

 

The same can be said of the AKMSU, I don't care (even being a firearms enthusiast) that it could be included instead of the AKS-74U, because it's the same concept (i.e. a SBR AK in 7.62x39 instead of 5.45x39).

 

The RPK has seen extensive global use since the early 1960s.

 

The AK-103 has also seen extensive global use as of late, in being used by Russia as well as many prominent export-receiving nations (like Libya).

 

The AKMSU is the only one that could possibly be an outlier, and even then, there are plenty of SBR AKs out there that could take its place (see the AK-102, AKMSU, AK104, Zastava M92, AIMR, or any number of Bulgarian-made 5.56x45 variants) which are chambered in either 5.56x45 or 7.62x39. Not to mention the Vityaz SN, the standard-issue Russian 9x19 (another round already included in DayZ) SBR AK SMG.

 

If you're willing to deem something as "unlikely" then you'd probably have to cut out almost every single weapon in DayZ currently. As well as the oft-touted AN-94, which is probably rarer and far more bereft of real-world use than any of the above weapons. Same can be said, to a lesser extent, of the AEK series as well.

 

And the all-powerful STALKER exemplar also featured an AKMSU (rather than an AKS-74U).

 

 

So there's that...

 

In the end, the caliber issue doesn't break the game for me. It's just painful to swallow, partly because it's so uncharacteristic of Bohemia to pull this kind of thing. Does it ruin the game? No. I can partly understand avoiding obscure calibers, but 5.45 and 7.62x45r aren't obscure, if anything, they're heavily prolific.

 

You can understand where I come from, right?

[Katana67 2907]

In the end, the caliber issue doesn't break the game for me. It's just painful to swallow, partly because it's so uncharacteristic of Bohemia to pull this kind of thing. Does it ruin the game? No. I can partly understand avoiding obscure calibers, but 5.45 and 7.62x45r aren't obscure, if anything, they're heavily prolific.

 

You can understand where I come from, right?

 

Absolutely! I absolutely understand where you, and others that value this type of thing (myself included) are coming from. Hence why I've advocated (successfully, I might add) for the de-amalgamation of 7.62x51 in DayZ.

 

I just don't view it (specifically the inclusion of 5.45x39) as an outright necessity.

 

Likewise, there are plenty of other legitimate reasons why these types of things should be implemented. Like in having them be able to offer a more granular approach to rarity. Or in simply having them because you like them! It just doesn't have to come at the cost of something else. Nor does it have to come with accusatory language with regard to the developers. I just rarely see this done.

 

Again, I have no issue with the simple fact that some want 5.45x39. I share that desire. I just don't view it as necessary to do anything (i.e. to add X, Y, Z weapons... or... to balance the rarity of assault rifle ammunition, as we've already got the minimum of two calibers which are required for this to even be possible).

 

I just disagree with the reasoning people have used to justify their desire for 5.45x39.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Katana67