Adding dynamism to gunfights

[Grimey Rick 3417]

Even fucking Minecraft has better movement than DayZ, and that's saying something.

 

+1 for the best one-liner I've seen in a while that made me lol irl.

[Etherimp 1323]

This game is so very clunky and unenjoyable to move around in which is a severe hindrance to a game that has you running around for all of your time playing. I'm sure they'll eventually fix it, but it's mind-blowing that they released what they released the other day, especially after the critique on Experimental beforehand.

 

 

The first sentence of that paragraph, is why I find it very difficult to play on hardcore servers. I have no problem playing first person perspective in any other FPS game, but playing first person only in DayZ is verrrryyy uncomfortable for me. The movement feels so ... unresponsive and the FOV is really whack. IMO, FOV should just be locked at like 100 and they should fix the zoom on scopes so that they are uniform. I keep getting people on my youtube channel criticizing me for not playing on Hardcore servers, so I have been giving them a fair chance lately, and while I enjoy the more intense gun-fights, generally just running around the map and looting things is almost painful to do.

[scriptfactory 620]

DayZ is its own biggest problem. I don't want "arcade-y" movement but my controls should work. I should feel like I am always in control of my character and not playing QWOP. The recent changes to movement and the hotbar just extrapolated the issue. I know people are saying "alpher" but, to be quite honest, there has been no improvement to movement/player actions in the last 8 months besides the (awesome) 1:1 mouse controls.

If people ever want Hardcore servers to gain popularity these controls need to be improved. They fucking suck.

[Etherimp 1323]

DayZ is its own biggest problem. I don't want "arcade-y" movement but my controls should work. I should feel like I am always in control of my character and not playing QWOP. The recent changes to movement and the hotbar just extrapolated the issue. I know people are saying "alpher" but, to be quite honest, there has been no improvement to movement/player actions in the last 8 months besides the (awesome) 1:1 mouse controls.

If people ever want Hardcore servers to gain popularity these controls need to be improved. They fucking suck.

 

 

Right. I'm not asking for them to introduce bunny hopping. A good example of how movement/controls is done in a tactical shooter would be Insurgency.. The shooter mechanics and movement is mostly realistic, but it's also responsive and smooth (for the most part).

[soulfirez 901]

Twitch shooter ,tournement shooter vs what is ment to be a survival game that has mil sim back ground they have different handling as they are very VERY different kinds of game. Hey its cool you want to play PvP death match nothing wrong with that but your going to have to do it while getting use to the control systems used in RV engine games. Has the feel changed from arma yeah it has but it isnt light years away from it as the feel of CS and UT are these are things your going to have to deal with.

 

Do i go on the CS forums and go we needed way bigger maps like over 200km2 becuase thats what Dayz arma has ?? NO because that would be retarded there different sorts of games trying to portray very different experiences.

 

But trying to point this out to you 2 is pointless ( i know rick is a troll lol and i love him for it )

 

We all play the games we enjoy but if you think the devs should change there game to make it more like another very different sort of game then there is some serious failing in logic and in what the devs would and wouldnt be willing to do.

 

As rick pointed out we can enjoy all sorts of different games shit i still play bloody halo very different experience very different feel to the game but when we get to the point were we want all these games ( even when there direction and intent is very different ) to have the same handling model then the cheese has slipped off your cracker...

 

Seems like the only person failing in logic here is you.. Not to flame or fight over this but why can't CS be a superior game AND DayZ be fun to play? I mean, I think most of us including Grimey Rick ENJOY DayZ.. Why else would we be here? And just because we enjoy DayZ and want to see it become the best game it can be doesn't mean we are blind to the reality that better FPS games have existed.

 

CS was a better game, but I played it competitively for 7+ years, at a reasonably high level... I quit because to manage a competitive team takes a LOT of time and a LOT of energy, and I am much older and more responsible now, so I find more casual (less competitive) games like DayZ are more healthy for me. Does this mean I should go back to playing CS because I think it's a better game?

Umm.. No? I still LIKE and ENJOY DayZ but I recognize that it has some serious faults, and I am patient and tolerant of those faults because this game is still in Alpha and I know there's time for those faults to be addressed.


Let's  look at the facts:

 

DayZ is a shooter. (FPS)

DayZ has "realistic" weapons.

In DayZ, death is permanent.

It takes only between 1-4 hits from any given weapon to kill someone, which means there's very little margin for error.

 

When you take those factors into account, you can extrapolate that for GOOD game play/gun play to exist, the controls should be responsive and intuitive.. Not slow, clunky, or unresponsive, as they are now.

 

If the controls and mechanics remain clunky and unresponsive, the game will die out because people will get frustrated with dying unfairly and go find better games.

 

This is not saying "FUCK THIS GAME IM GOING OT PLAY CS", it's saying "This game has issues that need to be addressed." It's the exact opposite of fanboism.. It's called constructive criticism, and last I heard, as Alpha testers, that's part of our job.. to give that.

 

 

I'm sorry, where did I state I don't like DayZ? I love DayZ, obviously. And I still play CS and UT. That's the magical thing about video games: you're not bound to only one and can play them as your mood changes!

 

DayZ has the potential to be my favorite game of all time, and it very well may live up to that potential. However, there's no denying that games like CS and UT that have been around for years, have a massive following spanning two generations now, and have been nurtured since 1999 are better games. We're comparing polished products to an alpha. Genres are genres. You can't say that a game is better than another based simply on its genre. However, you can say that a game is better based on controls, user interface, performance, gameplay, graphics, replayability, etc.

 

This game is so very clunky and unenjoyable to move around in which is a severe hindrance to a game that has you running around for all of your time playing. I'm sure they'll eventually fix it, but it's mind-blowing that they released what they released the other day, especially after the critique on Experimental beforehand.

[hleVqq 139]

I believe they said they're replacing the player controller, so there's hope perhaps?

[hotcakes 348]

Also, fix those bloody inclines. There was a convenient glitch called G-Running in .46 where you could run uphill max speed without stopping.

if you ran down steep inclines, you died but nobody needs to know that.

 

Uphill running is clearly a capability of the engine, why isn't it a feature by now? NOBODY in this game likes fighting in woodlands where you're running for two seconds and then walking the rest of the way. 

Edited August 3, 2014 by hotcakes

[gibonez 3633]

ha ha ha - bro, did OPF did even run "properly" with that card (owned that too).

First time i played OPF was with my brand new Geforce2MX - WEEHEEE...took me like  4 weeks to even manage the first 2 missions after that i stoped cuz i had no clue how to command my troops in that game, i def. should try it nowadays.

 

Whut ever, OP has some good points:

 

It ran at like 30 to 45 fps but the resolution was so low on my CRt monitor that it worked fine.

 

 

That was my old monitor when I was 10 or 11. Old HP MX 50 and yea It's hilarious that alot of peoples first video card was a Riva TNT 2.

 

As for the movement system it needs to be realistic and mirror real life.

 

People seem to confuse fluid smooth movement with arcade movement from arena shooters or tactical arcade games like counter strike.

 

Dayz needs to remain a sim and with that it needs realistic movement, no silly sprinting up steep inclines, no strafing at 20 mph none of the goofy stuff.

Edited August 3, 2014 by gibonez

[Etherimp 1323]

Twitch shooter ,tournement shooter vs what is ment to be a survival game that has mil sim back ground they have different handling as they are very VERY different kinds of game. Hey its cool you want to play PvP death match nothing wrong with that but your going to have to do it while getting use to the control systems used in RV engine games. Has the feel changed from arma yeah it has but it isnt light years away from it as the feel of CS and UT are these are things your going to have to deal with.

 

Do i go on the CS forums and go we needed way bigger maps like over 200km2 becuase thats what Dayz arma has ?? NO because that would be retarded there different sorts of games trying to portray very different experiences.

 

But trying to point this out to you 2 is pointless ( i know rick is a troll lol and i love him for it )

 

We all play the games we enjoy but if you think the devs should change there game to make it more like another very different sort of game then there is some serious failing in logic and in what the devs would and wouldnt be willing to do.

 

As rick pointed out we can enjoy all sorts of different games shit i still play bloody halo very different experience very different feel to the game but when we get to the point were we want all these games ( even when there direction and intent is very different ) to have the same handling model then the cheese has slipped off your cracker...

 

 

Go look at Insurgency.

 

[Grimey Rick 3417]

Twitch shooter ,tournement shooter vs what is ment to be a survival game that has mil sim back ground they have different handling as they are very VERY different kinds of game. Hey its cool you want to play PvP death match nothing wrong with that but your going to have to do it while getting use to the control systems used in RV engine games. Has the feel changed from arma yeah it has but it isnt light years away from it as the feel of CS and UT are these are things your going to have to deal with.

 

Do i go on the CS forums and go we needed way bigger maps like over 200km2 becuase thats what Dayz arma has ?? NO because that would be retarded there different sorts of games trying to portray very different experiences.

 

But trying to point this out to you 2 is pointless ( i know rick is a troll lol and i love him for it )

 

We all play the games we enjoy but if you think the devs should change there game to make it more like another very different sort of game then there is some serious failing in logic and in what the devs would and wouldnt be willing to do.

 

As rick pointed out we can enjoy all sorts of different games shit i still play bloody halo very different experience very different feel to the game but when we get to the point were we want all these games ( even when there direction and intent is very different ) to have the same handling model then the cheese has slipped off your cracker...

 

I'm not saying I want to be bunny-hopping all around Chernarus 180º jump-spin-headshotting kids with my Magnum from 400 meters, trust me on that. I just want fluidity in my movements. I want to feel like I'm actually controlling my character. If I die, I want it to be because I fucked up, not because my character randomly ran three extra steps for some unknown reason.

 

Also, when did I develop this identity of a troll? Lol. I post a lot of cynical, sarcastic bullshit, but it generally has a point. Someone has to fight the evil fucking machine! ;3

[svisketyggeren 662]

 only that it's hard for you to have a really educated opinion with only 90 hours played. 

 

Whatever game you played from whatever studio for how-many ever years doesn't mean diddly squat. 

 

 lol

[Irish. 4886]

OP puts up simple post expressing opinion.. people respond by virtually throwing stones.  :facepalm:

 

I think the CQB will work itself out, but Ive always been a fan of the more methodical and tactical feel that Arma games bring. That lack of fluidity and movement actually adds a lot to the game in my opinion. But I would welcome some changes, mainly with hit detection and collision. Once they make it so my character can not get hung up on the environment, and once there is some consistency with bullet penetration then Ill have little to complain about. 

 

Until then, yes.. they really need to fix the mothafucking uphill run speed.. I mean, make it slower than sprinting.. but not like Im dragging a donkey behind me slow. 

[gibonez 3633]

Go look at Insurgency.

 

 

Insurgency has alot of good things concerning aiming and aiming.

 

The forced free aim for every player is terrific the weight system controlling speed is good so is the stamina bar.

 

However the game is still an arcade tactical shooter it is not a sim and thus the movement feels very very unrealistic due to the lack of weight when moving.

[scriptfactory 620]

As for the movement system it needs to be realistic and mirror real life.

 

People seem to confuse fluid smooth movement with arcade movement from arena shooters or tactical arcade games like counter strike.

 

Dayz needs to remain a sim and with that it needs realistic movement, no silly sprinting up steep inclines, no strafing at 20 mph none of the goofy stuff.

 

You don't need to exaggerate, Mr. "90 hours played". There were many valid points raised and I don't believe a single person in this thread mentioning sprinting up inclines or strafing at 20mpg. If you aren't going to contribute to the conversation at least refrain from injecting talking points into the thread that no one mentioned.

[soulfirez 901]

I'm not saying I want to be bunny-hopping all around Chernarus 180º jump-spin-headshotting kids with my Magnum from 400 meters, trust me on that. I just want fluidity in my movements. I want to feel like I'm actually controlling my character. If I die, I want it to be because I fucked up, not because my character randomly ran three extra steps for some unknown reason.

 

Also, when did I develop this identity of a troll? Lol. I post a lot of cynical, sarcastic bullshit, but it generally has a point. Someone has to fight the evil fucking machine! ;3

Could the handling be made smoother the animation transitions hell yeah and i am betting they will get there but it will never feel like CS or UT. They will tweak and smooth out the system they have thats all i am saying not adopt a completely different handling model.

[Etherimp 1323]

Insurgency has alot of good things concerning aiming and aiming.

 

The forced free aim for every player is terrific the weight system controlling speed is good so is the stamina bar.

 

However the game is still an arcade tactical shooter it is not a sim and thus the movement feels very very unrealistic due to the lack of weight when moving.

 

 

I should be able to strafe around a corner and strafe back behind the same corner without my character stumbling over himself.. As has been mentioned in this thread a half-dozen times, nobody is asking for/looking for arcade shooter movement here.. we're not asking for bunny-hopping. Just clean movement/controls that are responsive and intuitive.

[Bororm 1156]

relevant: http://www.reddit.com/r/dayz/comments/2c6at8/been_a_dayz_supporter_since_day_1_can_or_will/cjch03w?context=3

 

 

It's a difficult area to define but it is a subject I have discussed at great length with programmers, designers, etc... across multiple projects including when I was on Arma3 as well as DayZ. It's a discussing that brings up passionate arguments for all sides and I can assure you that at Bohemia there are hugely passionate people and it's often discussed.

Consider a very fluid game like Counter-strike. Why is it so fluid? Why does Payday feel very fluid? There are many reasons for this, I will discuss a few and their impact:

 

Different animations for client and everyone else.

Take for example Payday. Your character displays different animations for others characters than what you see in first person. Your eyes are not located in the camera's location. Your weapon is not in the same position on your screen as it is when on the animations of others. Arma has its basis in realism so there is a very core focus on matching everything. This makes an enormous difficult task of placing enough of the weapon in your first person view to see what you are holding, without making you look crazy/weird in third person. This affects responsiveness and what we can do.

 

Response to mouse movement is greatly increased in reaction-shooter games like Counterstrike.

That's why they're called reaction/twitch shooters. When you move your mouse your character goes there. Often no head-bob and very fast responsiveness.

I, personally, despise this in video games. I want to take all the designers who design warfare games who do this out for a few weeks in the field. Now, I may have been a terrible shot (and believe me, I was), and my eyesight is not amazing. But I was not alone in the military in that when I was moving, I could not see a damn thing. If I had to describe my body as something during fire and movement I would use words like "uncoordinated, janky". I am wearing body armor, webbing, ammunition, weapon, sidearm, kneepads, helmet, night-vision, maps, compass, waterbottles/camel-back, PRR, goggles, maybe an M72 or an M203. After loading up for a patrol, I often considered the fact I could move as defying the law of physics.

There are plenty of video games that do twitch shooters. Why don't we have one that does not do this, something different? Why don't we explore that and see if there is an answer that doesn't involve instant responses and relies on who is best in the traditional FPS. The problem we do face is that yes, often in the "real world" the delay does not seem as long between deciding to do something and doing it. I discussed this with a psychologist friend who suggested that this might be because in "real life" you feel the movement so you get a sense it is happening, that action is underway. When you decide you want to do something in DayZ, you must wait for it to happen.

 

Animation transitions

We have actually reintroduced some of these that we took out before. This is because the level of immersion and even the "clunkiness" of it was actually something that defined the series. It caused some delay in doing movements that, in real life, would take some time. There is constant work on improving these - but it is impossible to know if a transition is truly right until it has been tested for many hours. I suspect our animation team will continue their diligent work on this for many years.

 

Player Controller

Not controls, controller. This is the system the engine uses to convert your key presses into movements of the player. The current system is quite dated, and it has been reworked many times - perhaps a few too many. So we're redoing it from scratch. Please note: this is not player controls (which we already redid, improving the mouse movement greatly) - but the method the engine uses to deal with things.

 

Conclusion

So in part I agree with the problems you raise - but I do believe that your definition of "fluid/responsive" is not the same as mine. It is not called "firemovement" in the army, it is called "fire and movement". This is because you cannot be effective firing and moving at the same time. My theory is because the human body is clunky and janky, especially when loaded with a bunch of crap.

-rocket

Edited August 3, 2014 by Bororm

[gibonez 3633]

You don't need to exaggerate, Mr. "90 hours played". There were many valid points raised and I don't believe a single person in this thread mentioning sprinting up inclines or strafing at 20mpg. If you aren't going to contribute to the conversation at least refrain from injecting talking points into the thread that no one mentioned.

 

From OP.

 

 

-Enable running sideways

 

While I said 20 mph it is slightly lower since the run speed is currently 30 km/h and that translates to 18.6 mph thats Road bike speeds btw.

 

Later on from op again.

 

 

Also, fix those bloody inclines. There was a convenient glitch called G-Running in .46 where you could run uphill max speed without stopping.

if you ran down steep inclines, you died but nobody needs to know that.

 

Uphill running is clearly a capability of the engine, why isn't it a feature by now? NOBODY in this game likes fighting in woodlands where you're running for two seconds and then walking the rest of the way. 

 

Both the things I mentioned were talked about in the thread.

[Bororm 1156]

I should be able to strafe around a corner and strafe back behind the same corner without my character stumbling over himself.. As has been mentioned in this thread a half-dozen times, nobody is asking for/looking for arcade shooter movement here.. we're not asking for bunny-hopping. Just clean movement/controls that are responsive and intuitive.

 

You can strafe in this game, what are you talking about?

It's slow, but that just encourages you to lean out instead which makes more sense than strafing back and forth from cover like a twitch shooter.  Still if you want to risk it, it's possible to strafe currently.

[gibonez 3633]

I think part of the problem is people are comparing the movement in dayz to games in completely different genres. Dayz is not like those games nor is it like 99 percent of the games out in the market.

It would probably be best to compare dayz movement to tactical military simulators but sadly there are very few to compare to.

[hotcakes 348]

You can strafe in this game, what are you talking about?

It's slow, but that just encourages you to lean out instead which makes more sense than strafing back and forth from cover like a twitch shooter.  Still if you want to risk it, it's possible to strafe currently.

 

You SHOULD be able to do a fast sidestep. It's the the obvious solution to melee combat and breaching.

 

I'm a big fan of the shift-to-turbo layout. Holding shift and D for example should make my character sidestep to the right quickly while making his gun more unstable. Cornering right now is the dumbest thing ever since everyone is at turtle speed.

Edited August 3, 2014 by hotcakes

[Etherimp 1323]

You can strafe in this game, what are you talking about?

It's slow, but that just encourages you to lean out instead which makes more sense than strafing back and forth from cover like a twitch shooter.  Still if you want to risk it, it's possible to strafe currently.

 

 

Obviously I know it's possible to strafe... The problem is, strafing in this game is unreliable/unpredictable. I do not know if I am going to strafe 1 step, let go of my A key, then watch my character stumble another 3 steps, or if I am going to strafe half a step and stop immediately. As I said "Strafe without my character stumbling over himself."

Re: UNRESPONSIVE.

 

Whether or not Rocket feels this is the way things work in reality or not, it doesn't make for very rewarding gameplay. "Wow, I would have won that gunfight if it wasn't for my character randomly dashing forward from a crouched position then vaulting for no apparent reason."

 

Or better yet..

"Wow, I went to go pick up that Compass and fell off the building because my character randomly decided to dash forward off the edge."

Edited August 3, 2014 by Etherimp

[Bororm 1156]

You SHOULD be able to do a fast sidestep. It's the the obvious solution to melee combat and breaching.

 

Solution to what?  Breaching is fine.

 

Melee combat is a mess overall, I don't think faster strafing is going to help that any, in fact it would probably make it even worse as the game is already so janky from the speed at which players move.

[scriptfactory 620]

While I said 20 mph it is slightly lower since the run speed is currently 30 km/h and that translates to 18.6 mph thats Road bike speeds btw.

 

Both the things I mentioned were talked about in the thread.

 

Strafing is pretty bad. Peeking is impossible in this game. Sidestepping should definitely be possible.

I took the uphill running to mean the current uphill movement is pretty bad. I should always be able to jog up a hill. I should never be forced to a crawl unless the include is so steep that I am actually forced to crawl...

[Bororm 1156]

Obviously I know it's possible to strafe... The problem is, strafing in this game is unreliable/unpredictable. I do not know if I am going to strafe 1 step, let go of my A key, then watch my character stumble another 3 steps, or if I am going to strafe half a step and stop immediately. As I said "Strafe without my character stumbling over himself."

Re: UNRESPONSIVE.

 

Whether or not Rocket feels this is the way things work in reality or not, it doesn't make for very rewarding gameplay. "Wow, I would have won that gunfight if it wasn't for my character randomly dashing forward from a crouched position then vaulting for no apparent reason."

 

Those sort of things are bugs and already acknowledged.