zombie games and gender issues

[jayleann 143]

Today I discussed about open world zombie survival gaming (of course inspired by DayZ) and gender issues with a friend of mine and we both were of the opinion, that it is kind of strange that the overwhelming majority of people who play zombie survival games are men, while the Walking Dead Series is a viewer magnet for women too.

http://www.adweek.com/news/television/gory-raunchy-and-bro-filled-tv-series-are-hit-women-147503

http://comicsbeat.com/facebook-demographics-the-walking-dead-not-all-media-are-created-equal/

"Walking Dead fans are 59.38% male and 40.63% females."

So I was wondering: What is different?

Of course there are couple of obvious arguments. DayZ is focussed on weapons and vehicles, the social component has only marginal impact and when it is not lasting. This is probably one of many reasons, why the DayZ concept and the concept of ALL other open world zombie survival games can't reach a bigger female (or in general wider social) audience and attracts rather the military-simulation and survival-kind of player. That seems to change slowly but steady since I personally know people who play DayZ for other reasons, like roleplaying.

So why are the needs and demands of certain social groups not answered yet in that part of the game industry? Do you think it has to do anything with the general (rather male) gaming culture alone or the violent gaming content? Is there at least a way you can think of, to close the gap between social gaming and the zombie survival genre and why is no Indie Company interested in closing it so far? Is this topic a dead end in your opinion? Are risks to high? Can you think of a way or have you ever wanted someone to find a way to make survival gaming a more social experience, or is that kind of contradictory? Or would you say the reasons for the lack of gender (and social) balance are of different nature and if so, could you please elaborate your point?

I - personally - think it is very sad that zombie survival and common social gaming don't find a common ground for I would embrace it immediately. For me this would enhance everything, I understand that people feel different, they want this rough and unforgiving experience and it seems quite natural that humans become monsters themselves outside law-and-order, but on the other hand I think walking dead (especially the telltale series) proves very well that gaming can be VERY rough and social at the same time. Sure, storytelling is different from open world gaming, but is there really no way to merge these two trends?

Ps.: English is my third language, please don't judge.

[akafugitive 244]

I think simply it has to do with that video games in general are more populated by males then TV show viewers

[DemonGroover 8836]

I only speak from my experience in my own demographic (lets say over 30s) but there aren't that many women i know who play video games.  Watch TV - yes, sit on a laptop and kill zombies - no.

[hiniberus 122]

First off, your English is far better than a lot of others who have it as a primary language so kudos to you on managing to write so well! 

 

To the point of your topic; I believe that the primary reason of this issue is as you said yourself. The social side of this game is not only highly limited but almost doesn't even exist. Why? Death holds no serious issue/consideration in a virtual environment. While in the series "The walking dead" as you mention, when someone dies, it's generally a big event because that person can't come back. If there was a system in place that really put death as a big issue, then it would highly reduce the amount of people that even bother to buy the game because it's a game and people would whine (more than now) as to not only how hard it is but give KOS'ers even more reason to KOS because they cause more grief like that.

 

I understand what you're getting at, primarily I think it's because DayZ ought to be showcased to the public more often along with not being as harsh in terms of playing, a tutorial of sorts of what to do, how to do certain things and the like ought to be in place much later in development. Despite it being a 'zombie survival simulator' it is, as previously declared, a game. People want to play for fun and something as grief-able as this, even called an anti-game by some, is what people don't like.

 

CoD/Battlefied are 'addictive' for the fact that it's fast, you know (sort-of) what to do and death holds almost 0 consequence so you can do what you want and not quite care as much as you should. DayZ on the other hand, can have hours of gearing up wasted just because some tossing cunt camped inside a jail building just waiting for someone to open the doors.

 

Probably depending on persistent storage, zombie AI updates and some method to bring people to co-exist and give reasons for factions/towns to be made (populace wise), there'd always be that gap 'till then. 

[Murlough 192]

Today I discussed about open world zombie survival gaming (of course inspired by DayZ) and gender issues with a friend of mine and we both were of the opinion, that it is kind of strange that the overwhelming majority of people who play zombie survival games are men, while the Walking Dead Series is a viewer magnet for women too.

http://www.adweek.com/news/television/gory-raunchy-and-bro-filled-tv-series-are-hit-women-147503

http://comicsbeat.com/facebook-demographics-the-walking-dead-not-all-media-are-created-equal/

"Walking Dead fans are 59.38% male and 40.63% females."

So I was wondering: What is different?

Of course there are couple of obvious arguments. DayZ is focussed on weapons and vehicles, the social component has only marginal impact and when it is not lasting. This is probably one of many reasons, why the DayZ concept and the concept of ALL other open world zombie survival games can't reach a bigger female (or in general wider social) audience and attracts rather the military-simulation and survival-kind of player. That seems to change slowly but steady since I personally know people who play DayZ for other reasons, like roleplaying.

So why are the needs and demands of certain social groups not answered yet in that part of the game industry? Do you think it has to do anything with the general (rather male) gaming culture alone or the violent gaming content? Is there at least a way you can think of, to close the gap between social gaming and the zombie survival genre and why is no Indie Company interested in closing it so far? Is this topic a dead end in your opinion? Are risks to high? Can you think of a way or have you ever wanted someone to find a way to make survival gaming a more social experience, or is that kind of contradictory? Or would you say the reasons for the lack of gender (and social) balance are of different nature and if so, could you please elaborate your point?

I - personally - think it is very sad that zombie survival and common social gaming don't find a common ground for I would embrace it immediately. For me this would enhance everything, I understand that people feel different, they want this rough and unforgiving experience and it seems quite natural that humans become monsters themselves outside law-and-order, but on the other hand I think walking dead (especially the telltale series) proves very well that gaming can be VERY rough and social at the same time. Sure, storytelling is different from open world gaming, but is there really no way to merge these two trends?

Ps.: English is my third language, please don't judge.

Dont worry your English is better than some of us in the US.

[Murlough 192]

I think simply it has to do with that video games in general are more populated by males then TV show viewers

Agreed.

[Zedertone 378]

^^ Americans.

Edited April 11, 2014 by Zedertone

[thesodesa 99]

I'm not sure where you get the idea that women are drastically less prevalent in DayZ than in, say, CoD. The Walking Dead example was bad, because you're comparing a TV show to a game, 2 very different media by nature of interaction.

 

I know that a bunch of women play games like CoD, so it's not the gunplay that 'drives them off.' My guess, and it is just a guess, is that a lot of women don't know that much about DayZ, or they know too well that the game doesn't have many features in it yet.

 

Also, I have to say this since you brought it up, but a lot  of people who frequent the different DayZ forums don't have their social needs met either. I'm one of those people. I'm still waiting for new features, that would require you to cooperate with a group or simply provide incentives to work together. The game, as it is right now, does not entice me to play it. There is nothing to do but loot and shoot, neither of which are very social practises. Unless someone very close to you plays the game, you're out of luck when it comes to social interactions, because just hanging around the map and talking about random shit doesn't really happen between strangers.

[jayleann 143]

But the "more male playerbase" argument lacks some explanation value for:

http://lmc.gatech.edu/~cpearce3/lcc4725/blog/?p=3933

 

However, despite this apparent slant, there has always existed some small subset of games able to successfully appeal to both genders, keeping women and girls involved in digital gaming, though such games have failed to make up the majority of the industry. One of the more noteworthy titles able to achieve this was The Sims, originally released in February of 2000. More recently, The Sims 3 has continued the financial and critical success of that original game, and is worth considering for its appeal to both genders to determine what it is that sets the game apart from more male-dominated titles that tend to flood most of the mainstream market.

 

So I think that is not the ultimate argument, right? We know there are games that attract both genders (lets say 60%/40%) and we know that the zombie topic attracts at least 40% women, when it comes to storytelling. So my thinking would be that there is some contradiction in the argument that women don't play open world zombie survival because they don't play generally. I mean I accept it explains A LOT of difference in numbers, but not why there is such a huuuge difference not only in DayZ, but in the whole genre.

Edited April 11, 2014 by jayleann

[jayleann 143]

I'm not sure where you get the idea that women are drastically less prevalent in DayZ than in, say, CoD

 

To be honest I don't know what CoD is. It would be cool if games would generally make statistical figures public so one could compare and see trends. In DayZ the female character customization is a very new feature. I don't think it was very inviting beforehand. :)

[Etherious 907]

So, what you are asking is why doesn't DayZ have a better storyline and open arms to women? Or am I completely off? xD (Just woke up, sorry)

To be honest I don't know what CoD is. It would be cool if games would generally make statistical figures public so one could compare and see trends. In DayZ the female character customization is a very new feature. I don't think it was very inviting beforehand. :)

CoD = Call of Duty

[jayleann 143]

So, what you are asking is why doesn't DayZ have a better storyline and open arms to women? Or am I completely off? xD (Just woke up, sorry)

 

No I actually don't criticise DayZ here since I understand that sandbox games work like that. They deliberately waste your time and the only "sense", so to say, is self-entertainment. The main point of my discussion with my friend was: Why is there no new social-gaming-approach to zombie survival? There are a couple of open world games now, there is a whole market. Zomboid, infestation, DayZ, H1Z1 is coming, but they mainly circle around the same basic idea. There is no social-zombie-survival in the narrow sense of the expression. And with social I mean lasting effects, like there are certain people you have to take care for, there is no character development as it is typical and defining for series and movies, there is no storytelling (as you said) and no achievement or perspective. Mainly open-world-zombie-survival at the moment IS sandbox.

 

I mean open world is not only sandbox, and I really think sandbox can influence general open world development and general social gaming development. But I don't have the feeling there is much effort at the moment to try these approaches, to make the "end of days" a more social and common experience. Like between people who really try and who have really something to lose, not only gear and a rather worthless ingame life. But maybe people who you swore to take care of... if you know what I mean. I miss this sense of responsibility which you get while playing telltale-storys. And we were wondering if that will ever be reality in this genre.

 

And of course I know this is just a game! But that is no "excuse" for not making sacrifice feel like... REAL sacrifice. And achievement like REAL achievement.

Edited April 11, 2014 by jayleann

[Etherious 907]

No I actually don't criticise DayZ here since I understand that sandbox games work like that. They deliberately waste your time and the only "sense", so to say, is self-entertainment. The main point of my discussion with my friend was: Why is there no new social-gaming-approach to zombie survival? There are a couple of open world games now, there is a whole market. Zomboid, infestation, DayZ, H1Z1 is coming, but they mainly circle around the same basic idea. There is no social-zombie-survival in the narrow sense of the expression. And with social I mean lasting effects, like there are certain people you have to take care for, there is no character development as it is typical and defining for series and movies, there is no storytelling (as you said) and no achievement or perspective. Mainly open-world-zombie-survival at the moment IS sandbox.

 

I mean open world is not only sandbox, and I really think sandbox can influence general open world development and general social gaming development. But I don't have the feeling there is much effort at the moment to try these approaches, to make the "end of days" a more social and common experience. Like between people who really try and who have really something to lose, not only gear and a rather worthless ingame life. But maybe people who you swore to take care of... if you know what I mean. I miss this sense of responsibility which you get while playing telltale-storys. And we were wondering if that will ever be reality in this genre.

 

And of course I know this is just a game! But that is no "excuse" for not making sacrifice feel like... REAL sacrifice. And achievement like REAL achievement.

Ok, thanks for the clarification. :D Well, to be short and to the point....you will not be getting that type of game appeal and story in this sort of game. There will never be AI in the game to care for or story line missions. Maybe when there is private hives and modding support you will get that sense and RP but as of right now...it won't happen.

[Camisado2 83]

First off, The walking dead has Daryl.

Secondly, I think women who play games on a pc are much fewer than those on a console.

[Katana67 2907]

Honest to god I don't really know how to make a good assertion without sounding vaguely sexist. But here goes.

 

I think the Walking Dead comparison is good in that it exemplifies what DayZ is not.

 

There is no robust social interaction in DayZ, it's one-dimensional at this point. Emotion isn't really a factor, at least for me (and most of the KoS crowd I suspect) simply due to the lack of in-game mechanics encouraging emotional attachment.

 

The Walking Dead is much moreso about emotional attachment and character interrelationships. I'm not trying to say that women are somehow more interested or more susceptible to media which features emotional attachments and interrelationships. But everyone, male and female included, can relate to media which features coherent characters and emotional bonds. Which is why I think the Walking Dead has a broader audience.

[tatchell (DayZ) 73]

There is a gender issue in this game. What default character are transgendered people/hermaphrodites supposed to choose if they don't feel themselves to be either male or female?

Edited April 11, 2014 by tatchell

[Deathlove 2286]

There is a gender issue in this game. What default character are transgendered people/hermaphrodites supposed to choose if they don't feel themselves to be either male or female?

Than they are both. Whats the problem with that? To be honest there is not enough body options atm. Allot of stereotypical male and female bodies. Weight options are retardedly Holywood stereotyped in this game to. The zombies also like the characters Need variety and work when the developer team can get around to it. There to cardboard cut and past atm. You DON'T see the same human being in the world every single day.

[Deathlove 2286]

 

Some girly military stuff for you guys.

[tatchell (DayZ) 73]

Than they are both. Whats the problem with that?

Exactly my point. They are both but have no option to choose anything but "male" or "female". The world isn't this black and white as you rightly say and alienating a community like that isn't something that should happen either. 

[scriptfactory 620]

I know a few girls that played DayZ SA. They all quit because they got bored but they love the concept.

My girlfriend won't play DayZ because she hates the community.

[AryanBoogeyman 185]

I think the OP is correct in asserting that there is a gender gap in these types of games- but I believe that is a fundamental feature in women and mens basic natures.

 

My wife is absolutely not interested in violent video games but actually really likes puzzle solving and story telling types of games. It's not black and white as there will be outliers on both sides but I believe generally speaking most women are turned off by the amount of pointless violence in these types of games.

 

As far as making DayZ more social - I believe it is up to the player-base itself to enact change in the game itself. Once DayZ is feature complete we will see more people taking the time to "build" within it. 

 

The Freeside Trading Company from the mod being a fine example of player driven organic content. I believe the CEO (lol) of Freeside still posts on these forums, albeit in a bit of a jaded way nowadays. Can't blame him tbh.

[tatchell (DayZ) 73]

My girlfriend won't play DayZ because she hates the community.

Out of interest, what is it about the community that she doesn't like?

[Deathlove 2286]

We could always appease the woman by making the blood rainbow colored instead..... XD

 

 

Im jk

[thesodesa 99]

No I actually don't criticise DayZ here since I understand that sandbox games work like that. They deliberately waste your time and the only "sense", so to say, is self-entertainment. 

 

But DayZ doesn't have to be like this. That's why I'm always going to advocate the simulator approach to the development of  this game.

 

I'm hoping that vehicles have authentic controls, for example cars should have all of the 3 pedals and 5/6 gears mapped to the keyboard (or just ahev an increase gear/decrease gear buttons). Helicopters might be more of an issue because you have to have a joystick + pedal combo to control one ~realistically, but the Take on Helicopters: normal mode type of controls would suffice in this case methinks. This would increase the value of people who can drive.

 

Medicine is  the same. They should assign medical substances to cure the diseases they would cure in real life. This would increase the value of doctors/medics.

 

My point is, they could make just another game that wastes your time, or they could make a game that can actually teach you something practical.

 

I also need to make the point, that once more features, like base building, are added and if the managing of these things required teamwork, that would encourage teamwork.

 

And lastly, I wouldn't necessarily call games like WoW timewasters. People need to socialize, and if that's where you do most of your free time social interactions, and have friends that play the game with you, that's not procrastination.

 

I hope this makes sense. I'm kinda tired, so making coherent posts might not happen on my part right now.

Edited April 11, 2014 by TheSodesa

[Yuval 221]

Just give girls some money and a shopping bag. They will do the rest. Killing zombies virtually is not their thing

P.S- Once a month when I actually get to know a girl, shes from the US. So I need to stay awake until 3AM to talk with her.