First vs Third Person Discussion (Dslyecxi video)

[Garmalak 16]

Dynamic reflective mirrors would crash the server, before exploding your computer and setting fire to your house, until the fire reaches your gas and blows up your house.

 

No mirrors.

[tommes 331]

DayZ is more or less a competitive game. You go against other humans. It should be as fair as possible. 3d person view fucks that up massively.

 

Some guy made a suggestion here a while ago, that this could be compensated by blending out objects you wouldn't be able to see. So you could look around a corner, but you wouldn't see players or Zeds. That might be possible compromise.

 

On the other hand there's no other 1st person shooter with 3d person view. Nobody complains there. Only DayZ seems to attract players who need crap like that...

Edited August 24, 2013 by tommes

[radrussian1 (DayZ) 23]

It's not actually, the same reason it has crosshairs. As they allready stated back in the day with flashpoint, an FPS cannot even remotely approach the situational awareness and overall 'feel' for your surroundings that you have IRL. For instance: at 30m with an AR15 type weapon it is piss easy to just point and shoot without even looking over the sights, you might not hit every shots but pop off 3 and you're bound to hit the target, since you've got a feel for where you are pointing.

 

The crosshairs mimic that feel that the monitor takes away from you. The same goes for the dots that we used to have and 3rd person. The only reason I support the dots being removed is because you could see them trough things for some reason, it never worked properly but the idea is sound.

 

As for 3rdP letting me peak around corners and such.. well duh. Irl I'd be able to peep trough a fence crack the size of a keyhole and observe stuff. You could slightly raise your head up to look over something... and not be forced to kneel and expose lots more of yourself.

 

Simply put, these things that might seem 'gamey' are there to compensate for the real life senses that a monitor takes away from you.

be that as it may there are ways around this that arma already implements. you can use stance adjust to peek over a fence or lean to peak around it. it makes no sense to be able to see the other side of the fence or way over a hill. these games need better visual cues to whats happening in the direct vicinity of your character, not 3rd person. lost of games do just fine without 3rd person right? 

[ZooBeastman 12]

If you really can't see what is wrong with third person from this, you really need to stop and think for a while.

 

PS: I'd really like to know why this picture is so worth ignoring by the third person players :)

 

The thing is, no third person player would be making this argument. I completely understand that people who want an 'real' perspective of the world, where they can not have information their character could not whilst in first person. The thing is, if you enjoy playing third person games it simply ins't your primary concern. No more so then if you use outside systems to converse with you team mates you will have information your character couldn't. I'd much rather people didn't use skype / teamspeak etc, because It would be great to hear other teams talking in game, I don't however think that it would make the game overall more enjoyable for a lot of people.

 

The fact the guy in the second screen can see me doesn't bother me at all, its just part of the game. Various components of a game add up to hopefully something fun. Some systems add fun and detract in another way and this what making games is all about balancing the feel of the game you want to go for against the entertainment value you believe your delivering.

 

Any argument that third person players have abilities inherit in a third person camera is merely pointing out the obvious. I don't believe anyone is suggesting 3rd person is more authentic; just lots of people seem to find it fun; that there's more to gaming that being 100% authentic. 

 

I appreciate that a poll has been made but I am reasonably suspect to if this forum constitutes an average set of 'Dayz' players.  That said, looking at PlayWithSix I'm not sure I want to use the top servers as an example.

 

Does anyone know of a FPS only, loads of guns, vehicles and all that jazz server?  I suspect though both un-modded and modded have greater popularity in third person; even if this is not the case on the sample of forum users.

[SoulHunter (DayZ) 233]

I would say yes, just make players and zombies invisible in 3rd person until you are making direct eye contact with them in 1st person.

That is the best idea I've ever seen. I've before made a similar idea. (Making such peeps, zombies items not only invisible, also out of the info that the clients can get from the server when it should not be possible.So then if your character is not looking in a room in a house, then the items that are there are not displayed by your client because server would not send the info of them.) However someone said that it would require an amazing coding and might cause performance issues.

 

I hope that sorta stuff is possible. Making peeps, zombies and everything else invisible in third person which where in FPV you cannot see is the best thing to do imo. :beans:

[Trizzo 632]

The thing is, no third person player would be making this argument. I completely understand -snip- BUT the thing is, if you enjoy playing third person games it simply ins't your primary concern.

 

The fact the guy in the second screen can see me doesn't bother me at all, its just part of the game. Various components of a game add up to hopefully something fun.

 

So the thrust of your new arguments in favor of TPV is "MEH, so long as i'm having fun" and the worst part is you even concede there is an advantage BUT it "doesn't bother you" because it's "fun"..."It's just part of the game" ... :facepalm:

 

DayZ (you know anti game survival sim) it is not what you describe...things that might be "fun" that detract from authenticty do not belong in sim

 

 

I'm sorry but that is the worst suggestion I've ever read.

 

Why is it the worst ever? I clearly support FP but it didn't think it was the worst idea ever...

Edited August 24, 2013 by Trizzo

[fluxley 2228]

Dynamic reflective mirrors would crash the server, before exploding your computer and setting fire to your house, until the fire reaches your gas and blows up your house.

 

No mirrors.

Arma 3 has mirrors.

[_Anubis_ (DayZ) 139]

  The question is:  Can it be improved upon because currently many regard it as game-breaking and the people that don't have yet to put forward a solid reason why the devs shouldn't at least try to fix it.

 

ROTLFMAO - I wanted to left the thread (now becoming a pissing contest) but this one is priceless, I can't miss it...

 

Fraggle, honestly, who's "many"? You, other two mods and three or four forum posters? Have you blissfully forgotten the reality of dayz, which is full of "3dp on" servers and players playing there? Are they all breaking the game? It is then a disaster of biblical proportions! Rocket should slit his wrists for that!! How that happened?

 

_Anubis_

 

p.s. It would be too easy to point out that maybe you mean by "many" that many of the Arian people (those who can play dayz in the pure and sacre way) regard it as game-breaking, so I won't do that...  :D

[Inception. 9443]

If you prefer something you place more value in it than other choices. That means you believe it is a "good" thing. If you believe something is good it means you belive it has value or is satisfactory in degree or quality. Now that doesn't mean you think 1st is bad but that does mean you think 3rd is good. 

 

You are incorrect.

 

Preferring one thing over another thing does not mean one considers the preferred thing to be "good". 

For example: choosing between either having to kill four hundred school students or having to kill three hundred and ninety-nine. The latter choice is obviously the better choice, and therefore the preference, however that does not make it a "good" thing. The decision of choosing the latter option is "good" [for you are preventing the loss of one life in the scenario], however the act/thing itself is not.

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

ROTLFMAO - I wanted to left the thread (now becoming a pissing contest) but this one is priceless, I can't miss it...

 

Fraggle, honestly, who's "many"? You, other two mods and three or four forum posters? Have you blissfully forgotten the reality of dayz, which is full of "3dp on" servers and players playing there? Are they all breaking the game? It is then a disaster of biblical proportions! Rocket should slit his wrists for that!! How that happened?

 

_Anubis_

 

p.s. It would be too easy to point out that maybe you mean by "many" that many of the Arian people (those who can play dayz in the pure and sacre way) regard it as game-breaking, so I won't do that...  :D

Again you haven't really offered anything of substance, just sniped at me.  That's cool and all but in the last 15 pages or so I've pretty much written an essay putting forward my viewpoint.  You can ignore all of that (which you have) as much as you like in order to attack one single sentence each time and carry on with that bollocks about the Arian race (Nazi references...really?), I'd rather you took the mature approach and address my over-arching point of view in a mature way, then we might get somewhere.

 

I don't think that's likely though because you seem too emotional atm to make a solid case.

 

You seem to be constantly missing the fact that I'm not arguing for the 3rd person cam to be removed :/ 

 

Much love.

 

P.S - I really am done with this thread now.  Really.  I mean it this time.  I really do.

Edited August 24, 2013 by Fraggle
spelling

[Garmalak 16]

Anubis, maybe if you stopped taking jabs at the moderators, pulled your head out of your arse you would realise that the system is totally broken.

Edited August 24, 2013 by Garmalak

[brzator47@gmail.com 524]

Why is it the worst ever? I clearly support FP but it didn't think it was the worst idea ever...

I imagine for TPV fans any idea that restricts TPV in any way is the worst idea ever ;)

Perhaps there should be a separate thread for TPV improvement discussion only to avoid these "it's not an explot" arguments that are not really useful or helpful to anyone. Though it does make me wonder if there is any point in restricted TPV in the first place when the primary reason people use it is the very fact that it isn't restricted and lets you see more than you should.

[droznig 20]

Hello there

 

Regardless of what I personally think, after some deliberation I keep coming back to that fact it should be a server side choice.

 

I often spout the phrase "User choice is key" and this should be no different other than the choice should be on the side of the Server Administrator.

 

I rail against 3rd person in general as it it often forced upon is as a primary play view, I angst about it to Fraggle on a regular basis.

 

As Boney stated earlier, Make it a choice and let the people decide.

 

Rgds

 

LoK

 

What happens then, as is currently happening with the mod is that you are giving people the choice to play with cheats or without, forgetting about pvp, it makes the solo experience a lot easier so people naturally gravitate to the easy option of using cheats and the first person servers lose population. For example, last i checked about a month ago there was one single fp only server of all the UK servers out of the 20 or 30 that there are. One. And judging by the comments here it seems like most of them just do it because that's what other people do and they don't want to play without the cheats that every one else uses.

 

What might be a better option which would still allow choice, is you have one character only at any given time but you need to select first person or third person, only servers which fit your selection will be available for you to play with the character. People might be more inclined to actually populate first person servers because they know that every one else they are playing with didn't get their gear on a 3rd person server etc.

 

Personally I think 3rd person should be done away with all together, but if there has to be choice, make it binary and not one foot in one foot out.

[Shadow Man 142]

ROTLFMAO - I wanted to left the thread (now becoming a pissing contest) but this one is priceless, I can't miss it...

 

Fraggle, honestly, who's "many"? You, other two mods and three or four forum posters? Have you blissfully forgotten the reality of dayz, which is full of "3dp on" servers and players playing there? Are they all breaking the game? It is then a disaster of biblical proportions! Rocket should slit his wrists for that!! How that happened?

 

_Anubis_

 

p.s. It would be too easy to point out that maybe you mean by "many" that many of the Arian people (those who can play dayz in the pure and sacre way) regard it as game-breaking, so I won't do that...  :D

What?? You really think there are are just a handful of people who would prefer dayz to be 1st person only? I am temted to make a poll just to prove you wrong. And if you read the comments under dslyecxi's video you'll see that the vast majority are in favour of 1st person.

 

I have yet to read a convincing argument for why 3rd is preferred, other than that it is what they prefer, which says nothing other than a disregard for what dayz is.

 

If 3rd person is to stay then the only suggestions I can think of are

 

1. Players, zeds, loot etc are all invisible while in 3rd.

 

2. Players cannot move while in 3rd so they can admire themselves.

 

Whatever happens, if one player has an unfair advantage over a another, as a result of a game mechanic and not a playstyle, then I will not be getting the game.

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

What?? You really think there are are just a handful of people who would prefer dayz to be 1st person only? I am temted to make a poll just to prove you wrong. 

Please allow me to present:  The Poll

 

It's far too small as a sample to be of any use really but it certainly helps counter the argument that wanting 3rd person removed (which I don't, I want it refined) is purely the viewpoint of me and my Arian brotherhood.

[_Anubis_ (DayZ) 139]

You really think there are are just a handful of people who would prefer dayz to be 1st person only? I am temted to make a poll just to prove you wrong. And if you read the comments under dslyecxi's video you'll see that the vast majority are in favour of 1st person.

 

Yes, only an handful of people prefer 1st over 3dp. Out there there are tons of 3dp on servers with tons of players playing in 3dp and just a few 3dp off servers with so no many people playing. Sorry, where is this "vast majority" of those 1st person players you keep talking about? 

 

The poll idea shows immediately how you confuse the entire dayz player base with the relatively few people posting here: It is the same viewpoint of some moderators by the way: "we" think 3dp is bad, we are "many", hence the "majority" of dayz players think 3dp is bad. b.s. sorry. The reality is different. Go and open dayZ commander if you do not believe me.

 

As I said countless times, I personally play 3dp in explore mode and 1st in combat, so I play on 3DP on servers. I accept people willing to play with 3DP off only, it is their preference, like I accept people doing KoS even if I do not play in that way.

 

We have 3dp on and 3dp off servers for that purpose. Simple as that.

 

_Anubis_

Edited August 24, 2013 by _Anubis_

[SoulHunter (DayZ) 233]

ROTLFMAO - I wanted to left the thread (now becoming a pissing contest) but this one is priceless, I can't miss it...

 

Fraggle, honestly, who's "many"? You, other two mods and three or four forum posters? Have you blissfully forgotten the reality of dayz, which is full of "3dp on" servers and players playing there? Are they all breaking the game? It is then a disaster of biblical proportions! Rocket should slit his wrists for that!! How that happened?

 

_Anubis_

 

p.s. It would be too easy to point out that maybe you mean by "many" that many of the Arian people (those who can play dayz in the pure and sacre way) regard it as game-breaking, so I won't do that...  :D

What you wrote has nothing to do with the quote of the person you wrote to.

 

You are trolling in an important thread. Stop it.

[St. Jimmy 1631]

Tons of 3rd person view servers doesn't mean it's the right way. There are tons of 300+ vehicles, auto refuel, starter kit etc. but that doesn't mean DayZ should be like that. So _Anubis_ please stop there are already enough of trolls like you in the thread.

 

It's better to pretend that there never was 3rd person view in Arma. Let's now think how we can provide 3rd person view in the game so it isn't exploitable.

 

/By the sound of couple Gamescom interview Rocket doesn't want to get rid off completely of 3rd person view.

Edited August 24, 2013 by St. Jimmy

[Garmalak 16]

About that, how the hell do they put so many vehicles in the game?

And yeah, in Fallout there are no cars at all after the war. It should be more like that!

[DemonGroover 8836]

Latest news: New battleye update

 

"You have been Globally banned. Reason - use of 3rd person"

[ZooBeastman 12]

So the thrust of your new arguments in favor of TPV is "MEH, so long as i'm having fun" and the worst part is you even concede there is an advantage BUT it "doesn't bother you" because it's "fun"..."It's just part of the game" ... :facepalm:

 

DayZ (you know anti game survival sim) it is not what you describe...things that might be "fun" that detract from authenticty do not belong in sim

 

 

 

Why is it the worst ever? I clearly support FP but it didn't think it was the worst idea ever...

 

DayZ is literally a game that includes third person.. it is literally what is being described.  Re-spawning detracts from authenticity; does it belong in a sim? Its a game, its made for entertainment purposes. There is no new argument being presented in what you responded to. Very early in the topic I suggested it is largely a "some people actually like playing from a third person perspective".

 

 

 

Anubis, maybe if you stopped taking jabs at the moderators, pulled your head out of your arse you would realise that the system is totally broken.

 

I've yet to see a single comment suggesting the third person camera isn't operating as a third person camera. It is literally the opposite of broken. 

 

I imagine for TPV fans any idea that restricts TPV in any way is the worst idea ever ;)

Perhaps there should be a separate thread for TPV improvement discussion only to avoid these "it's not an explot" arguments that are not really useful or helpful to anyone. Though it does make me wonder if there is any point in restricted TPV in the first place when the primary reason people use it is the very fact that it isn't restricted and lets you see more than you should.

 

I think the camera could be improved without making the game first person. I don't think that there's a great deal of benefit to such for people who just want to play the first person experience. First person servers solve this much better than any restriction. In the poll thread there are comments that suggest people who only want to play first person exploit (as in utilise) the third person camera to see things they can't in first. People actually arguing that the people who simply enjoy playing from a third person perspective are exploiting it in some way beyound those who perfer using the first person but switch to third only to exploit it's benefits. (again utilise). 

 

If third person was merely liked by people because it works as a 'wallhack' then removing it will mean however many people who use it by default will use proper wallhacks.....of course.. this makes so much sense.

 

What happens then, as is currently happening with the mod is that you are giving people the choice to play with cheats or without, forgetting about pvp, it makes the solo experience a lot easier so people naturally gravitate to the easy option of using cheats and the first person servers lose population. For example, last i checked about a month ago there was one single fp only server of all the UK servers out of the 20 or 30 that there are. One. And judging by the comments here it seems like most of them just do it because that's what other people do and they don't want to play without the cheats that every one else uses.

 

What might be a better option which would still allow choice, is you have one character only at any given time but you need to select first person or third person, only servers which fit your selection will be available for you to play with the character. People might be more inclined to actually populate first person servers because they know that every one else they are playing with didn't get their gear on a 3rd person server etc.

 

Personally I think 3rd person should be done away with all together, but if there has to be choice, make it binary and not one foot in one foot out.

 

I think expanding segregation to character creation level makes a lot of sense. It may even encourage people who play on third person servers who would rather not to not do so.

[sausagekingofchicago 4711]

DayZ is more or less a competitive game. You go against other humans. It should be as fair as possible. 3d person view fucks that up massively.

 

Some guy made a suggestion here a while ago, that this could be compensated by blending out objects you wouldn't be able to see. So you could look around a corner, but you wouldn't see players or Zeds. That might be possible compromise.

 

On the other hand there's no other 1st person shooter with 3d person view. Nobody complains there. Only DayZ seems to attract players who need crap like that...

 

You've got to be trolling me.

 

it's not a First Person Shooter.

[terrvik 2409]

You've got to be trolling me.

 

it's not a First Person Shooter.

 

No it's not. It's a new thing and I don't think there are any rules as to how this "genre" should work, not yet. Many seem to think that either first person or third person "should" be the standard for DayZ when the truth is that it is all up to Team Rocket. All we can do is discuss why we prefer one or another, as we are doing right now (well, some of us at least...). As soon someone says that the other side is wrong or that either perspective is more valid because of the genre the point of the thread has been missed by miles.

[sausagekingofchicago 4711]

Why is it the worst ever? I clearly support FP but it didn't think it was the worst idea ever...

 

 

What you're suggesting actually neuters the entire camera view and is not in any way a fair or honest suggestion or compromise.   It only makes you guys happy because it solves what you believe to be "exploits".   It's like me suggesting the FP camera be moved to the character's left foot.

[sausagekingofchicago 4711]

Please allow me to present:  The Poll

 

It's far too small as a sample to be of any use really but it certainly helps counter the argument that wanting 3rd person removed (which I don't, I want it refined) is purely the viewpoint of me and my Arian brotherhood.

 

 

Now we just need to post that in a place where the FP guys haven't gathered together to fight off the entire population of the game.