First vs Third Person Discussion (Dslyecxi video)

[sausagekingofchicago 4711]

Actually the game was designed with first person views in mind, the whole 3rd person thing came later simply because the optoin was there to cheat so people started using it to lessen the difficulty of what was an otherwise brutal game at the time*. Day Z is and always has been a first person game which is why it's so frustrating seeing so many people using what is effectively a cheat to play the game in a way it was never meant to be played or designed to be played.

 

 

 

Help me out with this one by backing up that claim.  It obviously supports the FP argument so I'd like a link or something.  Maybe it was all FP before I got here.  Thanks.

[Jamz 253]

No and no. You just don't seem to comprehend how the TPV advantage works in a defenders/snipers/campers/hallways, favor. This is the misunderstanding.

 

 

Thanks for that, I understand. But if the situation were reversed then the other player would have the same advantage is what I mean.

[Trizzo 632]

Thanks for that, I understand. But if the situation were reversed then the other player would have the same advantage is what I mean.

 

Now i don't get it. Could you clarifiy what you mean when you say "if the situation was reversed". What's that situation?

[SoulHunter (DayZ) 233]

Now i don't get it. Could you clarifiy what you mean when you say "if the situation was reversed". What's that situation?

I think what he tries to mean is that the possibilities of a player being able to use the TPV to exploit are the same for all the players, which does not of course mean that every possibility is fair for both players.

[sausagekingofchicago 4711]

No and no. You just don't seem to comprehend how the TPV advantage works in a defenders/snipers/campers/hallways, favor. This is the misunderstanding.

 

These could both have TPV on but only one person (the defender/abusher) gets the free information on where the other player is.

 

Anways...good to hear the devs working on trying different solutions to try to please the bottom line player base...the three main areas the TPV is most abusive is:

 

*Prone

*Hallways

*Overwatch

 

*Prone: Forced prone in TPV is a pretty good solution to stop the periscope-a-ton in the outdoors.

*Hallways:...a Deadspace shoulder perspective would go a long way to fixing hallways. Perhaps in urban/town enviroments the TPV becomes locked in a shoulder perspective.

*Overwatch: A concealed person can still have a massvie advantage during overwatch even if their peepers could not actually see over/through their concealment...this type of situation is the hardest to work on a fix. The distinction between running in the open where Rocket says he would like TPV and suddenly stopping in a good postion (such as on top of a hill behind rocks) and being able to recon an entire area free of consequence will be hard to tweak. No ideas for that.

*Gear/UI checks: would also be a pretty good way to examine your character you gear and maybe for a status check.

 

So long as to obvious imbalances are worked on a compromise is sensible.

 

Prone: to first person or zoomed way in

Crouch:  zoomed in.  If it's over the should they're going to need to add the ability to switch which shoulder the camera is on on the fly or one side will always have a blindspot and be absolutely useless.

Standing: standard third (I'd prefer it to be zoomed in a bit.  Something similar to double tapping + in third person but maybe a little further back)  No double tapping - to zoom out further.

Vehicles: always FP. Always.

 

To deal with what most people will start doing, which is to stand in a corner or behind a tree to get total TP angle, when standing against an object the camera should zoom in further.  Perhaps to the distance of crouch cam.  This is tricky as you can get annoying and motion sickness inducing camera zooming if done wrong.  Finding the best spot to trigger the zoom and picking the best speed of the zoom will be the trick.

[SoulHunter (DayZ) 233]

Prone: to first person or zoomed way in

Crouch:  zoomed in.  If it's over the should they're going to need to add the ability to switch which shoulder the camera is on on the fly or one side will always have a blindspot and be absolutely useless.

Standing: standard third (I'd prefer it to be zoomed in a bit.  Something similar to double tapping + in third person but maybe a little further back)  No double tapping - to zoom out further.

Vehicles: always FP. Always.

 

To deal with what most people will start doing, which is to stand in a corner or behind a tree to get total TP angle, when standing against an object the camera should zoom in further.  Perhaps to the distance of crouch cam.  This is tricky as you can get annoying and motion sickness inducing camera zooming if done wrong.  Finding the best spot to trigger the zoom and picking the best speed of the zoom will be the trick.

Nice ideas man :beans:

[Trizzo 632]

Crouch:  zoomed in.  If it's over the should they're going to need to add the ability to switch which shoulder the camera is on on the fly or one side will always have a blindspot and be absolutely useless.

 

I like this one a lot and i'd expand it . The ability to switch shoulder/hands for firing firearms is not nearly added enough to games (it makes a huge difference to your cover/concealment). I wouldn't just have a camera that changes angles but also tie it into which shoulder your weapon is fired from. So if you need to lean left instead you can swamp your rifle to your left shoulder to slice the pie keeping as much of your body covered as possible. i It would add some real fine touches to CQBs. Chaos Theory did this shoulder-rifle-camera swap well.

Edited August 24, 2013 by Trizzo

[sausagekingofchicago 4711]

I like this one a lot and i'd expand it . The ability to switch shoulder/hands for firing firearms is not nearly added enough to games (it makes a huge difference to your cover/concealment). I wouldn't just have a camera that changes angles but also tie it into which shoulder your weapon is fired from. So if you need to lean left instead you can swamp your rifle to your left shoulder to slice the pie keeping as much of your body covered as possible. i It would add some real fine touches to CQBs. Chaos Theory did this shoulder-rifle-camera swap well.

 

That's would work best but the characters are just a bunch of untrained civvies.  So to make even that more interesting, you pick your dominant hand at spawn so lefties have bad aim when shooting from the right shoulder, righties bad aim when shooting from the left shoulder.   ;)  

 

I'm not 100% sure about that thought but it would add some interesting things to consider when playing.  I just know I would suck shooting from my left shoulder.  

 

[edit:  not to mention it might jack up the animations. just tossing out ideas]

Edited August 24, 2013 by SausageKingofChicago

[DemonGroover 8836]

Prone: to first person or zoomed way in

Crouch:  zoomed in.  If it's over the should they're going to need to add the ability to switch which shoulder the camera is on on the fly or one side will always have a blindspot and be absolutely useless.

Standing: standard third (I'd prefer it to be zoomed in a bit.  Something similar to double tapping + in third person but maybe a little further back)  No double tapping - to zoom out further.

Vehicles: always FP. Always.

 

To deal with what most people will start doing, which is to stand in a corner or behind a tree to get total TP angle, when standing against an object the camera should zoom in further.  Perhaps to the distance of crouch cam.  This is tricky as you can get annoying and motion sickness inducing camera zooming if done wrong.  Finding the best spot to trigger the zoom and picking the best speed of the zoom will be the trick.

I like these ideas.  For me the biggest exploit is the roof camper who scans the town while prone.

[Jamz 253]

Now i don't get it. Could you clarifiy what you mean when you say "if the situation was reversed". What's that situation?

 

I think what he tries to mean is that the possibilities of a player being able to use the TPV to exploit are the same for all the players, which does not of course mean that every possibility is fair for both players.

 

Exactly :)

 

I'm neither for or against 3rd person view incidently. Seems the only issue with it is the advantage in certain situations which it might give during pvp. If that's right, then my line of sight idea would solve this and still allow people to play with either view with no advantage over the other.

[SmashT 10907]

Rocket elaborated on the subject a bit today after touching on it in one of the Gamescom interviews here

We're still toying with what to do with first person/third person, we have a few plans around that. Whether we do context sensitive and force players to not use third person in certain situations for example maybe when you go prone on the ground the camera moves in really close or forces you into first person. However, sometimes you are running around and you want to be in third person because it's just a good way to see your character and what's going on.

 

Q: I really dig the idea that if you prone, the camera goes into first person. It's logical and stops something that's been a bane to the ARMA series, also crouching could zoom in / go over shoulder a bit.
It's going to be hard to get it right, but I really want us to try. I find I am using third person alot in DayZ SA while running long distances, or to "check" my character (like to see where I am shot to check direction of firer), but then third person is so exploitable in prone. So we are going to try both forcing first for prone, and the "sucking camera in close" and see which works best.
Agree too, crouching would really benefit from a more "over the shoulder", we'll try that and put some previs up for people to comment on. [source]
 
Q: Third person can still be used to look behind corners and over walls while standing..
 I'm comfortable that enough rational has been established for the absolute and complete removal of third person from the standalone. I also believe that third person allowed servers, by virtue of demand, are more popular in the mod than first person ones. I think that it has been demonstrated that there is a "problem" with the allowance of third person, and the proposed solution is the best I can come up with. It's not perfect, but if we just allow servers to turn it on/off then I think demand will dictate that people gravitate to 'third person allowed" servers - despite them acknowledging the exploits.
This is a long winded way of saying, so what do you suggest given the evidence at hand? [source]
 
Q: What about yanking people out of third person when they get close to objects like trees, bushes, rocks, cars, trash piles, walls, buildings, etc
From a technical standpoint, this is very nasty because its going to either involve constantly polling for nearby objects and possibly raycasting also. It will have to be done serverside, adding to the poor servers increasing load. It will also result in a massive array of false positives and false negatives - as many map objects have no "object" status and are thus... not real objects to the game. I'm taking a wait-and-see approach at the minimum, at the maximum I'm proposing we put some context related limitations to 3rd person. Stance is easy to poll, and can actually be controlled in animation. [source]
 
Q: Why compromise and allow the exploit, why not remove third person all together?
Because I can see (and employ myself) many legitimate uses of 3rd person. The servers are also far more popular than 1st person ones. What I'm doing is acknowledging the problem, acknowledging that server-demand will drive in favor of third-person allowed servers, and proposing a compromise that perhaps eliminates the worst of the offending, at the very least taking the edges off it. In short, because removal of a feature should not be taken lightly, and I'm just not convinced we should remove 3rd person at the game level. [source]
 
Q: I'm curious about what you think third person adds to the game. 
I find it gives me a sense of my character, especially when running long distances. As stonedlemming noted: it gives you an excellent idea where you are bleeding from. This is particularly relevant with standalone where the particle source is bound directly onto the mesh in the exact position you were hit. During an interview I used this to realize where someone shot me from, and I then killed them. Overall, perhaps it's just my intuition that I just don't feel convinced yet that deleting the feature at the game level is the best solution. Players choose third person servers, and I don't think they are all choosing that so they can cheat. I found I hardly ever used third person in the mod but I am using it very regularly to check my character for many things in the SA, especially because of the range of different clothing. [source]
 

Q: I feel like all of that can be accomplished in first person using freelook, especially hit location...

Tried the free look thing. It doesn't work. You can't see most of your body. You can't see your back, butt, in fact your whole back of body and the sides. Even when i used TrackIR not only could I not see most, but it was unnecessarily irritating. My friend was shot in the ass, he knew he was shot in the ass, and he knew exactly where he was shot. I'm not pulling all this from thin air, I felt like I really tried to consider all sides of this. And I'm just not convinced that removing it at the game level is the way to go. I think that the compromise will solve the worst of the offending. [source]

Edited August 25, 2013 by SmashT

[Skat3rat 1633]

Awesome!  Thanks for posting that, Smash.  I really like that going prone will make you go into first person.

Edited August 25, 2013 by Skat3rat

[brzator47@gmail.com 524]

Looks like rocket is only really interested in restricting TPV for prone position. Meh. It's better than nothing, but that's only part of the issue. Firefights are still going to be lame if that's all there is to this solution. It does seem he wouldn't have a problem with removing TPV himself but doesn't want to because it is "more popular". Can we expect 100000 cars and choppers in standalone too?
 

[Fonebook 126]

Glad to hear Rockets input on this one, sad it had to come second hand. This really is his baby and at the end of the day I have great respect for his decision making thus far. If he feels it should stay in some capacity or another, then so be it.

 

I respectfully disagree with his perspective on this issue, and I think this is an unnecessary compromise. TPV has a cool factor which I cannot deny, but it is too prone to being exploited and I think the amount of work it will take to make a compromise will ultimately not be worth it as the end result will most likely also be susceptible to gamey exploitation. The removal of first person is simple and can be accomplished almost instantly. Any compromise is going to suck energy and resources which could be expended elsewhere. There are other ways to indicate to a player which direction a connecting shot has come from that don't give omnipotent views. True first person games have the advantage that if the enemy can see you, you can shoot him. If there is any way for players to observe me without putting themselves at risk, I will consider it cheap. I can see the advantage of TPV for making game films and such and it would be sad if these guys could not access it.

 

I think if a server that has TPV enabled it should have the word EASY all over it. Not "Veteran." In the end a true survival simulator will never be as popular as a run and gun blast fest. Most servers are bastardizing the original vision anyhow, so I don't think they should even fit into this equation.

 

Although I disagree with it, and think leaving it in is a mistake, I can move forward remembering how hardcore this game could have been. That is likely to happen no matter what though, and I applaud rocket and the dev team for taking all of this input into account and participating in the discussion. It just means that all of us hardcore players are going to have to band together and form a community simply for the purpose of getting a hardcore server populated. It won't be the end of the game if it is left in, just an unfortunate compromise that for all I know may be utterly necessary.

 

Thanks to all of you for taking the time to discuss this so heavily. Can someone talk Dslyecxi into making a video about how useless death messages are so we can get a big thread going about that?

[King of kong 1117]

I like both 3rd and 1st person. I'd like to use FP more often but it's very buggy on ArmA 2

[sobieski12 835]

 

Q: Third person can still be used to look behind corners and over walls while standing..

 I'm comfortable that enough rational has been established for the absolute and complete removal of third person from the standalone. I also believe that third person allowed servers, by virtue of demand, are more popular in the mod than first person ones. I think that it has been demonstrated that there is a "problem" with the allowance of third person, and the proposed solution is the best I can come up with. It's not perfect, but if we just allow servers to turn it on/off then I think demand will dictate that people gravitate to 'third person allowed" servers - despite them acknowledging the exploits.

This is a long winded way of saying, so what do you suggest given the evidence at hand? [source]

 

Q: Why compromise and allow the exploit, why not remove third person all together?

Because I can see (and employ myself) many legitimate uses of 3rd person. The servers are also far more popular than 1st person ones. What I'm doing is acknowledging the problem, acknowledging that server-demand will drive in favor of third-person allowed servers, and proposing a compromise that perhaps eliminates the worst of the offending, at the very least taking the edges off it. In short, because removal of a feature should not be taken lightly, and I'm just not convinced we should remove 3rd person at the game level. [source]

 

 

 

Well it's quite obvious why people prefer 3rd person servers, you get a ridiculous advantage over others player through the use of a cheap exploit.

* I'd notice more people on 1st person servers if "Bohemia Interactive" could have introduced a FOV slider.

- I personally started playing on the hardcore servers only until I changed my FOV, but it came with a compromise... I can no longer accurately use a DMR or Dragonov sniper rifle with my new FOV settings. 

 

As for saying "legitimate uses of 3rd person...". Sorry this is must be the funniest part of all the quotes he has given to the community. 

* His legitimate reason is that it builds character...lol

 

Let me fix this for you rocket.

* It's a legitimate tool in getting an absolute advantage on any enemy you encounter. If you suspect an enemy on the "NWAF" , continue to hug every tree and exploit the 3rd person camera till you find the target. If you need to approach your target even closer. Just use the 3rd person camera and hug the concrete wall and keep a good eye on anyone that might be around the south barracks or anyone that might hug a tree south-east of the hangers. I can keep on going in how to use this legitimate style of play but I'll just leave it there...

 

As a conclusion, sure forcing first person view while going prone and crouch will help against those who camp on the hospitals or the high industrial buildings. But since your not planning to remove 3rd person camera and are going to continue to allow standing position players to exploit this tool. More and more players are just going to camp the forested areas around the various cities to utilize the most from the 3rd person camera.

Edited August 25, 2013 by Sobieski12

[OrLoK 16185]

Hello there

 

I think what we have to remember is the exploitative aspect is a concern and the dev team wish to address it without spoiling folks fun.

 

To me that's a great thing.

 

I personally, would just cut 3rd person out and be damned.  But R in his infinite wisdom is thinking about all players whilst still keeping to his "anti game" ethos.

 

I think that's rather generous of him.

 

Wait till the SA and see what he implements as we go along. R can be a hard taskmaster but he is open to intelligent debate and will admit if he's wrong.

 

The beauty of this release model is that it will be a true alpha, warts and all, unlike other game "alpha/beta" releases.

 

Do the devs a favour and at least give them enough rope before you hang them. I think they'll surprise you.

 

This *is* a difficult issue to address and not one that's taken lightly.

 

R is going to make some concrete decisions which will irritate some of the player base to create the game he wants, but doesn't do anything without some intense thought beforehand.

 

This thread is a great opportunity to give ones views and ideas, it not a thread to vilify him over what one thinks he *may* do.

 

Rgds

 

LoK

[King of kong 1117]

I agree with you Orlok. I also think that people are getting impatient because the SA isn't out yet. I think they need to just be patient, if you're patient, you'll get a better product. If people keep complaining, the devs'll might just rush it and have a shit ton of lag and bugs. They're trying to make it good for the players, so just let em'do their thing ;)

[RooBurger 285]

FP while prone is better than nothing. Let's hope with all this discussion that FP-only servers become more popular.

[Siberian (DayZ) 527]

 Firefights are still going to be lame if that's all there is to this solution. It does seem he wouldn't have a problem with removing TPV himself but doesn't want to because it is "more popular". Can we expect 100000 cars and choppers in standalone too?

 

 

so basicly "play my way or GTFO, this includes you Rocket"

 

that about sums up your ability to understand that DAYZ SA isnt being designed for 1 group of people.. or 1 play style.

 

but by all means continue to live in that bubble were only your way is correct...

Edited August 25, 2013 by Siberian

[dsi24 227]

He has a solution for the hardest exploit (but people will just stop using prone), but nothing for the most common one, using it to see through a door/hole you're about to go in.

Edited August 25, 2013 by Dsi1

[landfish 62]

I respect Rocket's decision for keeping 3rd person even though I disagree with it. This is his game after all and it is up to him on who his target audience but nothing can keep me from trying out the Sa.

Now, I noticed that Rocket actually stated that 3rd person are more popular and I'm just merely repeating what a lot has said already. If given democracy, people will always choose the easiest path, the one with the least resistance. That's why servers in the mod with absurd numbers of vehicles and starting weapons are always more populated than those without it. It doesn't even matter if those servers are both 1st and 3rd or 1st person only. This is just my opinion but am I the only one bothered when I see that the majority of the playerbase of a survival game choose to play it like a 3rd person shoot em up with zombies?

In my opinion, 3rd person needs more drastic changes than what Rocket is currently suggesting. Because right now, the exploits and advantages you gain from using 3rd person far outweighs the "legitimate reasons" of using it.

[Andrakann 52]

Sorry, i didn't read whole topic, just first 3 pages and last one, maybe my solution is outdated.

But it's very simple - just not render characters and loot if they not in field of view of player character as in first person.

 

So we have this scene:

This is first person view:

This is how it looks from third person for now:

And this is how it must  be:

How it works:

Green is visible from first person, red is not.

 

[dulix11 731]

*le snip*

 

That is exactly how I would like it.

[_Anubis_ (DayZ) 139]

If you honestly do not think that being able to watch an approaching player while remaining absolutely undetectable(by means of a game mechanic) is an unfair advantage, then I guess the conversation ends here.

 

I couldn't care less about that and, looking at the reality of dayz player base, 95% does not care either - you are beating a dead horse.

 

_Anubis_