First vs Third Person Discussion (Dslyecxi video)

[Trizzo 632]

 

This is pure conjecture.

 

And this is pure denial. Watch ANY video of somebody playing in TPV and the explotive nature of it is immediately obvious. Failure to recognise this is your failing.

 

But serious people and contributors have long moved on this discussion.

 

Suggestions for a new perspective are what exactly?

 

*Scrap TPV, first person only AND add the ARMA 3 height adjustment

*Keep TPV but player/npc entities are only appear if you have direct LOS with your eyes

*Have a close or locked over the shoulder view that does not elevate the camera

 

Anything else?

Edited August 24, 2013 by Trizzo

[ZooBeastman 12]

I really like this, you don't seem to have any difference in your head between "running around with third person" and "using third person to see through walls". It really shows what you see third person as, not a vanity tool like you like to pretend it is to argue for keeping it (and the fact that that's your best argument for keeping it is very telling too), but as your anything and everything tool.

Third person is a game mechanic, a tool, and just like any tool, it can be used for something bad. Most people try to block off the bad uses of tools in their games, and once they go through all the ideas for making third person work, realize it isn't worth the effort and would rather just get rid of it entirely. But not you, and I have to wonder if you'll ever say why.

 

I have several times in the thread, but for whatever reason you appear suspicious of someone enjoying something which can be used in a way you do not like. Your use of bad isn't objective.

 

I'm not sure I have a game I should be removing bad uses of? I'm pretty sure we are talking DayZ and I neither work on the game nor the mod?

[SoulHunter (DayZ) 233]

Its a game, there are more things that tweaking the camera that are not ideal with it.

But this thread exists for that purpose. What are you then doing here?

 

That doesn't make it game breaking or require the removal of a whole perspective of play.

That being game-breaking for some aspects of the game-play is the reason of this thread being existing.

 

 It just makes it not ideal.

The people here discussing to solve this "non-ideal" issue. That is why this thread exists.

 

Everyone has the same options.

Maybe some people do not like to have some non-ideal options even though it is open to everyone in the game. As an example of the case, people in HackFestation Stories stopped playing the game due to the amount of hackers even though almost all the players were hackers. Everyone had the same options. ESP, Aimbot, No Clip and whatnot. But there were still complaints about the case because "some people" did not like this fact.

 

That is the reason of this thread exists. Some people do not like this aspect of 3rd person being used to exploit over and over again.

[ZooBeastman 12]

And this is pure denial. Watch ANY video of somebody playing in TPV and the explotive nature of it is immediately obvious. Failure to recognise this is your failing.

 

It's simply how third person games play; I am not aware of any which do not allow peaking, there probably are some. I doubt when making a third person game a developer would suggest, "right people love peaking around corners and exploiting stuff, so lets make a game that works like that" rather than "people like playing games in third person... lets make a game like that". Yeah it comes with some stuff that isn't ideal.

[ZooBeastman 12]

But this thread exists for that purpose. What are you then doing here?

 

That being game-breaking for some aspects of the game-play is the reason of this thread being existing.

 

The people here discussing to solve this "non-ideal" issue. That is why this thread exists.

 

Maybe some people do not like to have some non-ideal options even though it is open to everyone in the game. As an example of the case, people in HackFestation Stories stopped playing the game due to the amount of hackers even though almost all the players were hackers. Everyone had the same options. ESP, Aimbot, No Clip and whatnot. But there were still complaints about the case because "some people" did not like this fact.

 

That is the reason of this thread exists. Some people do not like this aspect of 3rd person being used to exploit over and over again.

 

I'm not sure comparing a game with full esp and aimbots everywhere to every third person shooter ever made is sensible.

 

I also assumed this thread was not only about people who only like first person expressing there views. I have made several suggestions that could improve the situation for first person only players. I'm not sure there is a better one than the current division though.

[dsi24 227]

It's simply how third person games play; I am not aware of any which do not allow peaking, there probably are some. I doubt when making a third person game a developer would suggest, "right people love peaking around corners and exploiting stuff, so lets make a game that works like that" rather than "people like playing games in third person... lets make a game like that". Yeah it comes with some stuff that isn't ideal.

Knowledge in ArmA/DayZ is power, and third person gives you perfect knowledge without any risk of giving the other player any knowledge (if you don't see why that's a bad thing what are you even doing here). Please show me any third person shooter where knowledge is this important. Gears of War is the only third person shooter that even comes to mind, and knowledge isn't nearly as important as reaction time there.

[ZooBeastman 12]

Please show me any third person shooter where knowledge is this important. 

 

How about ArmA ?

[SoulHunter (DayZ) 233]

I'm not sure comparing a game with full esp and aimbots everywhere to every third person shooter ever made is sensible.

 

I also assumed this thread was not only about people who only like first person expressing there views. I have made several suggestions that could improve the situation for first person only players. I'm not sure there is a better one than the current division though.

You do not still understand the reason of this thread existing. No one here bashing 3rd person. People here are just pointing out the way of 3rd being used to exploid as I am mentioning 8th time now.

 

I like 3rd person and prefer over 1st person as well. I am a 3rd person user. But I also dislike the fact that it is being used to exploit. Yet you are still saying "This thread is not only for 1st person lovers" "why not liking 3rd person" and such even though most of the people here I assume love it so much as well.

 

Pointless post is pointless. As you keep ignoring the reason of this thread existing, you are still off-topic material here.

[SmashT 10907]

And this is pure denial. Watch ANY video of somebody playing in TPV and the explotive nature of it is immediately obvious. Failure to recognise this is your failing.

 

But serious people and contributors have long moved on this discussion.

 

Suggestions for a new perspective are what exactly?

 

*Scrap TPV, first person only AND add the ARMA 3 height adjustment

*Keep TPV but player/npc entities are only appear if you have direct LOS with your eyes

*Have a close or locked over the shoulder view that does not elevate the camera

 

Anything else?

 

You missed the one about automatically changing the camera mode based on what you are doing (running - camera pulls back behind you in third person, stop and it pulls back into first person etc, maybe something inbetween if you are jogging)

http://dayzmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/145895-first-vs-third-person-discussion-dslyecxi-video/?view=findpost&p=1446569

Edited August 24, 2013 by SmashT

[ZooBeastman 12]

You do not still understand the reason of this thread existing. No one here bashing 3rd person. People here are just pointing out the way of 3rd being used to exploid as I am mentioning 8th time now.

 

I like 3rd person and prefer over 1st person as well. I am a 3rd person user. But I also dislike the fact that it is being used to exploit. Yet you are still saying "This thread is not only for 1st person lovers" "why not liking 3rd person" and such even though most of the people here I assume love it so much as well.

 

Pointless post is pointless. As you keep ignoring the reason of this thread existing, you are still off-topic material here.

 

I'm not sure what you think I am ignoring?

[ZooBeastman 12]

You missed the one about automatically changing the camera mode based on what you are doing (running - camera pulls back behind you in third person, stop and it pulls back into first person)

http://dayzmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/145895-first-vs-third-person-discussion-dslyecxi-video/?view=findpost&p=1446569

 

How about the current server selection? Surely this is literally the best option in terms of balance?

[SoulHunter (DayZ) 233]

I'm not sure what you think I am ignoring?

[Trizzo 632]

It's simply how third person games play; I am not aware of any which do not allow peaking, there probably are some. I doubt when making a third person game a developer would suggest, "right people love peaking around corners and exploiting stuff, so lets make a game that works like that" rather than "people like playing games in third person... lets make a game like that". Yeah it comes with some stuff that isn't ideal.

 

This is a completely bogus arguement. TPV exists and is used by Devs because of the inhernent power and it's explotive nature.

 

Take Splinter Cell or any other TPV game. I'm thinking MGS (from 3 onwards), GoW, Prince of Persia, DMC...the reason SOME games are designed with TPV is because to play them in FPV would be nigh impossible. The reason why TPV exists is TPV gives you so much free information and situational awarness.

 

Examples:

*If every game was FPV only you would never be able combo in DMC, you would always be hit from behind

*This is true for ANY action brawler think NinjaG, Heavenly Sword, DMC, GoW...these games would not function without TPV. (I don't think there is a single brawler that uses FPV)

*Splintercell would be designed like Dishonored so you could peak around corners BECAUSE that is the functionality TPV provides.

 

DayZ is different. It does not need FPV. It ruins the tension.

 

Imagine if the CounterStrike community was told, "Ohh BTW we are adding TPV to the game, yeah no need to learn how to slice the pie, stack a room or throw flashbangs, trade kills, you can simply bend the camera around, behind, under or over any obstacle in your path. Enjoy!" In fact none of the hardwon stratergies such as mass flash bang, fake flash bangs, trading kills with superior numbers via rushing, twitch aiming would exist if TPV was is CS.

Edited August 24, 2013 by Trizzo

[ZooBeastman 12]

 

I'm sure that means something to you. I'm glad in my professional life I never come up against such intellectual arguments.

Edited August 24, 2013 by ZooBeastman

[BigChef 55]

Its odd, I really get that people who like first person would rather it was first person. I find it strange that the reverse isn't equally prevalent. The day "3rd person is just plain wrong" is the day there aren't third person games enjoyed by millions of people.

Now the difficulty here when posting on the forums is that our communication cannot take on the intended inflection, body language and the myriad of minute idiosyncrasies that allow us to make our intention known other than through vocabulary, so I wish to make it perfectly clear that I respect the POV of team 1st person, I do, I get it. I also agree that the 3rd  person view needs tweaking, I enjoy 3rd person and use it about a 3rd (of course) of the time I’m in the game, and I do agree that the ability to look around corners is, well, quite frankly bullshit. But with that said in FP there is no ability to extend your head above the grass when prone, lift yourself up to peer over a wall and getting stuck in a doorway or bush pretty much launches the player right out of “immersion” pretty damn quick! I also feel there’s a restricted field of view in FP…if there’s a way to correct this by all means let me know.

Since this thread first began I’ve been trying to play in first as long as possible to well, walk in the other person’s shoes and as of this posting I still enjoy a blend of both view points and believe both perspective need work in order to make this game as address the above mentioned doorways, and bushes as well as some of it’s obvious flaws while in control of vehicles as well as when the player decides to run a marathon from coast to NWAF. Third person I believe is solved by lowering the camera to say 10 to 12 inches behind and just above the character’s head curing some of the FP limitations while removing the X-ray or sight bending abilities that are currently a PITA for PvP play. Just my opinion, not judging your opinions, after all they are just that, yours. You may proceed to pick my post apart…I’m fine with that as well.

Oh, one more thing..Dsi1, to be clear, I do not believe I have ever used the “vanity” defense as a reason for keeping 3rd person, yet you’ve grouped me with that crowd. Pease note that I am fine with how I look and while vain in this world I do not care in DayZ

Peace

[ZooBeastman 12]

This is a completely bogus arguement. TPV exists and is used by Devs because of the inhernent power and it's explotive nature.

 

Take Splinter Cell or any other TPV game. I'm thinking MGS (from 3 onwards), GoW, Prince of Persia, DMC...the reason SOME games are designed with TPV is because to play them in FPV would be nigh impossible. The reason why TPV exists is TPV gives you so much free information and situational awarness.

 

Examaples:

*FPV only you would never be able combo in DMC, you would always be hit from behind,

*This is true for ANY action brawler think NinjaG, Heavenly Sword, DMC, GoW...they could not function without TPV

*Splintercell would be designed like Dishonored so you could peak around corners

 

DayZ is different. It does not need FPV. It ruins the tension.

 

The thing is, DayZ is at least currently a third person shooter; the majority of people play it as a third person shooter I cannot think of another way of describing it. Simply because we don't like elements of third person shooters does not mean they are inherently weaker games; they are merely different games.

 

There's been several suggestions, particularly before the discussion on what an exploit or cheating actually is/entails on potential improvements to the third person experience; and I'm all for it; its how I play, making it as good as possible makes the game I play better.

 

I don't really see any great possibility of ever making them 'equal' however and I'm not even sure its a worthy goal. If you're competitive enough to care that other people have an advantage over you because of the camera type they use then you probably won't be happy without a fully even playing field. The only way to achieve that is total separation.

 

I don't really understand why the vanity argument is considered a bad one; if someone gets a kick out of looting stuff and seeing their character develop then I can only see that as an advantage over not. I personally feel the main advantages of third person are both the empathy (attachment to) and interaction with the world you can see/feel in the character in front of you. I don't want to see the poor chap eaten.

 

Anyway time for me to sleep, enough peaking 'round corners for one night.

Edited August 24, 2013 by ZooBeastman

[SoulHunter (DayZ) 233]

The thing is, I think DayZ is currently a third person shooter; the majority of people as IMHO play it as a third person shooter I cannot think of another way of describing it. Simply because I (we) don't like elements of third person shooters does not mean they are inherently weaker games; they might also be (are) merely different games.

 

There's been several suggestions, particularly before the discussion on what an exploit or cheating actually is/entails on potential improvements to the third person experience; and I'm all for it; its how I play, making it as good as possible makes the game I play better.

 

I don't really see any great possibility of ever making them 'equal' however and I'm not even sure its a worthy goal. If you're competitive enough to care that other people have an advantage over you because of the camera type they use then I think that you probably won't be happy without a fully even playing field. The only way to achieve that is total separation, which is not a fact but purely my personal opinion.

 

I don't really understand why the vanity argument is considered a bad one; if someone gets a kick out of looting stuff and seeing their character develop then I can only see that as an advantage over not. I personally feel the main advantages of third person are both the empathy (attachment to) and interaction with the world you can see/feel in the character in front of you. I don't want to see the poor chap eaten.

 

Anyway time for me to sleep, enough peaking 'round corners for one night.

Fixed your text for you. ;)

Edited August 24, 2013 by SoulHunter

[ZooBeastman 12]

Fixed your text for you. ;)

 

No you didn't in fact you made a number of mistakes during your edit.The first while without a source is likely true; think is not the correct word however; "as IMHO" is incredibly poor phraseology.. "We" which you have replaced with I refers to various posts throughout people have said they don't like things about third person, I would be suppressed (based on this thread alone) if I was the only person who has issues with third person games. "they might also be" - eh? No they simple are.

 

"I think that..." is superfluous based on the use of probably,. "which is not a fact but purely my personal opinion" is a very odd caveat to add at the end of a paragraph about balance. Chess wouldn't be balanced if someone had different pieces no matter how close they are.

 

It also comes across as exceedingly obnoxious.

 

Boggled again, can you have an inpersonal opinion? Where did you learn this stuff? The concept of an objective opinion.. I will dream of this.

Edited August 24, 2013 by ZooBeastman

[SoulHunter (DayZ) 233]

snip

Didn't read due to the attempt of you getting into a personal conversation in a public thread. I may welcome you in my mail-box. Please remind me if you would ever decide to go on-topic.

 

As for being on-topic, you are still being off-topic here. :)

Edited August 24, 2013 by SoulHunter

[ZooBeastman 12]

Curious, other than direct responses to some slightly off remarks I see my posts as quite heavily resolving around the original post's suggestion to discuss third and first person views?

 

If my posts are off-topic, may a mod errr mod me.

Edited August 24, 2013 by ZooBeastman

[Vicco 123]

So here's what I learned so far.  Many of those wanting 1P only are rude twits.  Not all.

They call others "cheats."

They suggest others leave the thread.

They insult.

They pout, and pound their fists while they repeat the same old nonsense over and over again. 

 

They refuse to recognize that tactical decisions and skill are far more important than any 3P advantage.

In DayZ you always move, and always look.  NOBODY can shoot you without exposing himself first.

In DayZ you scout, then go in with your feet moving, your eyes open, and an exit plan.

 

No different than sniper defense   You EXPECT a sniper.  You EXPECT somebody behind that parapet wall scanning you.

You EXPECT somebody behind that yard wall.  In real life they'd have cracks in the wall to look through.

In houses they'd have shades, and you couldn't see in.

That's real life.  Defend against it.  DayZ does a good job of simulating it with 3P.  It has no other means.

Real life would be worse.  Defending/sniping always has advantages.  Learn to neutralize them.

 

Throwing a smoke grenade into a building before entering, going in and taking a position away from the door can neutralize a defensive advantage.

Team play can draw enemies out.   Flanking can expose them.

Aw, you didn't think of that, or don't want to bothered to with it?  Too bad.

If it's a team, in 1P the guy behind a rooftop parapet wall won't even have to look.  His scout watching from the hill will just say, "He's 20 yards north of you, back turned. Pop him now." 

You gonna cry and cry about that "exploit?"

 

Personally I don't give a fuck if it's 1st or 3rd, as long as the game works.

But you twitch shooters probably won't win this one.

Every argument you've made is lame to me.

 

[terrvik 2409]

So here's what I learned so far.  Many of those wanting 1P only are rude twits.  Not all.

They pout, and pound their fists while they repeat the same old nonsense over and over again. 

 

Aw, you didn't think of that, or don't want to bothered to with it?  Too bad.

You gonna cry and cry about that "exploit?"

 

Personally I don't give a fuck if it's 1st or 3rd, as long as the game works.

But you twitch shooters probably won't win this one.

Every argument you've made is lame to me.

 

Good that you told us twits who's boss in such a polite non insulting manner then.

Sometimes I don't know why I even bother; I always seem to mistake arguments for actual discussions. Silly (rude twit) me.

Edited August 24, 2013 by Terrorviktor

[dsi24 227]

So here's what I learned so far.  Many of those wanting 1P only are rude twits.  Not all.

They call others "cheats." You mean they call people who exploit game mechanics who they are.

They suggest others leave the thread. You mean they give up when other show no signs of reasoning.

They insult. You mean they give up when other show no signs of reasoning.

They pout, and pound their fists while they repeat the same old nonsense over and over again. You mean they have proven why third person shouldn't exist in an FPS in every single way possible

 

They refuse to recognize that tactical decisions and skill are far more important than any 3P advantage. You mean that they recognize that third person's advantage makes it easy and riskless to gain all important information in making a tactical decision, taking risk out of a game that is meant to be all about it

In DayZ you always move, and always look.  NOBODY can shoot you without exposing himself first. But they sure as hell can expose themselves when they know you aren't looking while watching you with their exploited game mechanic.

In DayZ you scout, then go in with your feet moving, your eyes open, and an exit plan. You can't scout the invisible, open eyes will never see the invisible, and an exit plan can never beat someone who has your life in their hands because they know exactly what you're doing and you don't even know they exist. 

 

No different than sniper defense   You EXPECT a sniper.  You EXPECT somebody behind that parapet wall scanning you. The only difference: You can see a sniper if you're observant enough. You can expect it, you can even see it when you exploit third person yourself, but you can never do anything about it besides not ever going there. Or maybe camping your own little real estate using your exploit.

You EXPECT somebody behind that yard wall.  In real life they'd have cracks in the wall to look through. You can expect it, you can see it with your own exploit, but you can never do anything about it besides not going through that entrance if they've already spotted you with their own exploit. Solid brick walls are full of holes in real life? Really? 

In houses they'd have shades, and you couldn't see in. They have those in ArmA too, try again.

That's real life.  Defend against it.  DayZ does a good job of simulating it with 3P.  It has no other means. No, third person does not simulate any form of reality, it simulates people who have magical invisible camera orbs that hover around their bodies from 4 feet back.

Real life would be worse.  Defending/sniping always has advantages.  Learn to neutralize them. In real life good observation could save you, this isn't true in DayZ.

 

Throwing a smoke grenade into a building before entering, going in and taking a position away from the door can neutralize a defensive advantage. Why do any of this when you can just use your exploit to see the enemy inside?

Team play can draw enemies out.   Flanking can expose them. Why would someone with a perfect position leave it? That's what third person does, it makes any wall or rooftop a perfect position, full vision with perfect stealth.

Aw, you didn't think of that, or don't want to bothered to with it?  Too bad. You can theorycraft any situation you want, but the truth is that 'bothering' to do anything but see inside buildings or through walls with your third person exploits is the only way to know if someone is there, and the best response afterwards is to just leave if they're already in position to shoot you.

If it's a team, in 1P the guy behind a rooftop parapet wall won't even have to look.  His scout watching from the hill will just say, "He's 20 yards north of you, back turned. Pop him now." Cool, you admit that third person lessens the value of teamwork, I never though of it from that angle, thanks for helping prove the undesirability of third person even harder.

You gonna cry and cry about that "exploit?" Cry? No, exploits are bad, you know that, right?

 

Personally I don't give a fuck if it's 1st or 3rd, as long as the game works.

But you twitch shooters probably won't win this one. 

Every argument you've made is lame to me.

If you really can't see what is wrong with third person from this, you really need to stop and think for a while.

 

PS: I'd really like to know why this picture is so worth ignoring by the third person players :)

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

Because they see themselves as the "invisible" player laying in wait for the unsuspecting "noob" about to take a face-full of lead maybe?

[landfish 62]

Man, I knew from the start that this topic was too big to be abandoned and dslyecxi took the words out of my mouth and explained it better and more civilized than I could. I'm glad that I'm no longer the minority that sees the ugly aspects of 3rd person and choose to speak out against it. Now I don't really care how Rocket tackles this issue but as long there's nobody behind a big ass rock or a window using an invisible periscope to see my all of my movements without exposing himself, I'll be happy.