First vs Third Person Discussion (Dslyecxi video)

[Vicco 123]

I thought we'd moved on to discussing a decent compromise?

 

Look, people that want it removed and people that don't are literally never going to agree.  

 

There can be no debate about the fact that currently the 3rd person camera in DayZ has too much freedom of movement allowing players to exploit it, that is just a fact.  Surly the next logical step is to discuss how it could be fixed to keep everyone happy.

 

I don't buy that at all. 

From the beginning DayZ has been primarily a 3P game.  It was designed that way.  It's been very successful.

There are no "exploits" with 3P.   The view is designed into the game, and every player has it.  It compensates for many "clunky" aspects of the game engine.

If some player outsmarts you by using it more effectively, it's no different than walking into the scope of a ghillied sniper in 1P laying prone under a tree.  Or getting killed by a "smarter" player when you get yourself stuck in an animation at the wrong time. 

It's up to the player to yell "No Fair!" and blame it on the game - or blame himself. 

 

You won't "keep everyone" happy.

 

You have what seems to be a bunch of COD PvP twitch shooters here crying that everybody should be forced to use 1P.

Then you have others talking about "immersion" and wanting their idea of "immersion" forced on everybody else.

Typical forum argument.  There's NOTHING "deep" here.  That's all good.  I enjoy it myself.

The answer has been given.  Let the market decide.  The designers will have that in mind, and the players will play, or walk away.

[Siberian (DayZ) 527]

Interesting post, especially the remark to Godwin's Law :D  it is rare to see something like that here. I have taken the freedom to keep only two parts of your post because I wanted to answer to you about those and clarify:

 

Yes, the majority have 3rd person turned on. Yes the majority of the players play on those servers. That doesn't mean it is the best option for DayZ going forward

 

I am not a follower of Rocket or have his icon close to my bed where I light candles to him before going to sleep. Dayz is not my religion and I do not have the arrogance to think that *I* know what is best for dayz. I merely try to have fun with it by meeting other players (in that I dislike a KoS-oriented playstyle for example, but I accept each one has his or her way of thinking, it is a basic principle of democracy). I simply like 3dp more than 1st person. Nothing else or nothing more (and as I explained, I do understand the periscope effect). 

 

I daresay the vast majority of the other casual players (like me) have a similar way of thinking and simply enjoy 3dp more than 1st. Easy as that. So there are automatically more 3dp on servers than 3dp off. So people like more certain clothes, or cars or whatever or vote for the left party or the right party.  Right or wrong does not apply here.

 

Basically once you give 3rd person as an option to use everyone does because it makes the game simpler and gives tactical advantages. That means there is no, "Why can't we allow both?" because one excludes the other when both are available.

 

If everyone does it it means everyone is happy with it. Is that so difficult to accept? People have the right to choose (again, it is called democracy).

 

Keep in mind it provides NO TACTICAL ADVANTAGE because on a 3dp on server EVERYONE has access to it. If you decide to play always 1st person on a 3rd on server YOU alone have an handicap and it is your fault. You have a 3dp off server for that purpose. It is like being vegetarian and going to an Argentine restaurant and complain that every dish is meat based...

 

You see, I am not stating 3rd is better, purer, more appropriate you-name-it compared to 1st (or the other way around). I am simply saying that people must be free to choose to play how they like to have fun. That's the purpose. I accept you like 1st person more. Fine. Just stick to a 3dp off server and feel free to play with the rest of the population who says "1st person or bust". Exactly like I stick to 3dp on servers because I like to play with 3dp on to explore and 1st person to fight.

 

Cheers,

 

_Anubis_

 

 

prolly the best post in this thread so far..

 

kudos sir...

[Siberian (DayZ) 527]

I don't buy that at all. 

From the beginning DayZ has been primarily a 3P game.  It was designed that way.  It's been very successful.

There are no "exploits" with 3P.   The view is designed into the game, and every player has it.  It compensates for many "clunky" aspects of the game engine.

If some player outsmarts you by using it more effectively, it's no different than walking into the scope of a ghillied sniper in 1P laying prone under a tree.  Or getting killed by a "smarter" player when you get yourself stuck in an animation at the wrong time. 

It's up to the player to yell "No Fair!" and blame it on the game - or blame himself. 

 

You won't "keep everyone" happy.

 

You have what seems to be a bunch of COD PvP twitch shooters here crying that everybody should be forced to use 1P.

Then you have others talking about "immersion" and wanting their idea of "immersion" forced on everybody else.

Typical forum argument.  There's NOTHING "deep" here.  That's all good.  I enjoy it myself.

The answer has been given.  Let the market decide.  The designers will have that in mind, and the players will play, or walk away.

 

 

another excellent post.

 

have sum beanz.

[brzator47@gmail.com 524]

This is such a tiring argument. Where does this idea that players "must" have a choice come from? Let's not forget DayZ is a mod for ARMA and many things were not "designed to be that way" but were simply part of ARMA instead and rocket worked with what he had.  DayZ SA is it's own game now and there is no reason whatsoever any feature should be kept solely on the basis that "it is popular" in the current mod.

[mercules 1290]

I am not a follower of Rocket or have his icon close to my bed where I light candles to him before going to sleep. Dayz is not my religion and I do not have the arrogance to think that *I* know what is best for dayz. I merely try to have fun with it by meeting other players (in that I dislike a KoS-oriented playstyle for example, but I accept each one has his or her way of thinking, it is a basic principle of democracy). I simply like 3dp more than 1st person. Nothing else or nothing more (and as I explained, I do understand the periscope effect). 

 

I daresay the vast majority of the other casual players (like me) have a similar way of thinking and simply enjoy 3dp more than 1st. Easy as that. So there are automatically more 3dp on servers than 3dp off. So people like more certain clothes, or cars or whatever or vote for the left party or the right party.  Right or wrong does not apply here.

 

Basically once you give 3rd person as an option to use everyone does because it makes the game simpler and gives tactical advantages. That means there is no, "Why can't we allow both?" because one excludes the other when both are available.

 

If everyone does it it means everyone is happy with it. Is that so difficult to accept? People have the right to choose (again, it is called democracy).

 

Keep in mind it provides NO TACTICAL ADVANTAGE because on a 3dp on server EVERYONE has access to it. If you decide to play always 1st person on a 3rd on server YOU alone have an handicap and it is your fault. You have a 3dp off server for that purpose. It is like being vegetarian and going to an Argentine restaurant and complain that every dish is meat based...

 

You see, I am not stating 3rd is better, purer, more appropriate you-name-it compared to 1st (or the other way around). I am simply saying that people must be free to choose to play how they like to have fun. That's the purpose. I accept you like 1st person more. Fine. Just stick to a 3dp off server and feel free to play with the rest of the population who says "1st person or bust". Exactly like I stick to 3dp on servers because I like to play with 3dp on to explore and 1st person to fight.

 

Cheers,

 

_Anubis_

 

Anubis,

 

Giving your reason as "I like it." therefore it is good is stupid. Not attacking you just stating that you have to have a REASON you prefer it. What are those reasons? You don't prefer one thing to another for no possible reason, that is pure insanity, there is a reason behind your like or dislike. As a thinking and reasoning thing you can't possible have a preference for something without a checklist of good and bad that has been compared even if you haven't consciously thought about it or are unable to articulate it. So no, I can't accept, "I like it better." as a reason. That is not a reason that is the summation of several reasons that have brought you to a conclusion. 

No, people really don't have to be free to choose how they have fun. That is an erroneous assumption. As I have stated before some people enjoy using wall hacks to see through walls. Others enjoy God Mode or spawning in weapons. All of these will get you BANNED in DayZ by BE. Why is that? I mean everyone can access those same cheats and download them and choosing not to use them is handicapping yourself and your fault, right? No... it's because hacks/cheats/exploits ruin the point of the game. 

No, I don't know Dean Hall's thought process, but I can look at previous actions and make assumptions of future behaviours. I can look at the design and how it has changed and extrapolate from that the intent. I can also look at quotes from the DayZ team and make educated guesses as to what their intent is. Yes Dean Hall has stated he doesn't want KoS to prevail as much as it does but he has also stated he doesn't want to remove it completely. He has stated he wants an immersive game where people really have to interact and search and be in the environment. From that I can extrapolate that since, in my opinion (which is backed by reasons I have given), 1st person is superiour for that immersive state it would be better for the game. I can then form an argument and provide evidence for that beyond, "Because I like it." 

 

[_Anubis_ (DayZ) 139]

Mercules,

 

where did I write 3dp is good? Please highlight it.

 

I said "I like 3dp more than 1st". There is no good or bad or right or wrong.Just a preference.

 

_Anubis_

[geogeorgegeo@hotmail.co.uk 50]

In DayZ, I find that the vast majority of servers are 3DP:ON, extra cars, self bloodbag etc. some start with weapons, basically a deathmatch game on a massive map...

 

Recently I found DayZero - now I know where all of the players go. I was just playing a server with 65 slots and 60 players, and it was a 3DP:OFF server. To be fair, the majority of their servers were 3DP:ON, but this is similar to the vanilla dayz experience and there are a hell of a lot of players (many 60 player servers, full).

 

I think if 3rd person was removed from standalone, a few people would whine, as expected, but a lot of people would be thinking, great, now I can play First Person without a disadvantage. The thing about 3rd person is that we've had it for so long, people have used it to not be disadvanted, and have gotten used to it. It takes a little while to get used to first person if you have constantly used 3rd person, but in a 1st person server, the gameplay is far more intense - and fair.

 

How many people have been running near a firestation or hospital only for someone exploiting (well actually now it's acceptable to do this) 3rd person to pop up from the rooftop and shoot you?

 

edit:

 

Keep in mind it provides NO TACTICAL ADVANTAGE because on a 3dp on server EVERYONE has access to it. If you decide to play always 1st person on a 3rd on server YOU alone have an handicap and it is your fault. You have a 3dp off server for that purpose. It is like being vegetarian and going to an Argentine restaurant and complain that every dish is meat based...

 

There is a tactical disadvantage because someone could be camping behind a wall while you are running along (even if you are not in an open area), and they can know where you are without actually getting LOS, but you can't see them, because you are too far away from the wall, for example.

Edited August 23, 2013 by Noface

[mercules 1290]

I don't buy that at all. 

From the beginning DayZ has been primarily a 3P game.  It was designed that way.  It's been very successful.

There are no "exploits" with 3P.   The view is designed into the game, and every player has it.  It compensates for many "clunky" aspects of the game engine.

If some player outsmarts you by using it more effectively, it's no different than walking into the scope of a ghillied sniper in 1P laying prone under a tree.  Or getting killed by a "smarter" player when you get yourself stuck in an animation at the wrong time. 

It's up to the player to yell "No Fair!" and blame it on the game - or blame himself. 

 

You won't "keep everyone" happy.

 

You have what seems to be a bunch of COD PvP twitch shooters here crying that everybody should be forced to use 1P.

Then you have others talking about "immersion" and wanting their idea of "immersion" forced on everybody else.

Typical forum argument.  There's NOTHING "deep" here.  That's all good.  I enjoy it myself.

The answer has been given.  Let the market decide.  The designers will have that in mind, and the players will play, or walk away.

 

You are incorrect, I am very familiar with the "Scrub" article and using the tools you are given without calling foul. When I log into a server with 3rd Person I don't try to play in 1st person and cry "foul" upon anyone who doesn't. At the same time I can look at 3rd person and understand how much easier it makes the game and discuss how it removes the challenge and the feel from the game. I can then come to a reasoned opinion that the game might actually benefit from removing 3rd person despite people liking it. 

I have never played CoD in my life. I do enjoy a few FPS games including Mechwarrior Online which decided against 3rd person since it didn't make the game they wanted to make. 

The market shouldn't decide everything. That is what gives you really crappy games that appeal to the lowest common denominator and become tiresome very quickly. Niche games can actually survive off core audiences who become even more loyal BECAUSE they don't appeal to masses but to those looking for an experience the masses don't enjoy as much as their Game of the Month which switches and pulls those players off to the next big thing.

 

DayZ ~is~ a niche game. Most people don't like having to worry about eating, drinking, or disease. Mr. Hall and crew are making diseases even more complex. Soon you will need the correct antibiotic to treat various infections which will annoy the general public but is more the game he wants to make. I agree with him and think he needs to continue in that vein and disable 1st person because it does move DayZ in the direction of a survival horror FPS. 

[mercules 1290]

Mercules,

 

where did I write 3dp is good? Please highlight it.

 

I said "I like 3dp more than 1st". There is no good or bad or right or wrong.Just a preference.

 

_Anubis_

 

You do understand the meaning of "preference" right?

If you prefer something you place more value in it than other choices. That means you believe it is a "good" thing. If you believe something is good it means you belive it has value or is satisfactory in degree or quality. Now that doesn't mean you think 1st is bad but that does mean you think 3rd is good. 

Preferences can be wrong, contrary to common thought or belief. I could prefer playing games in God Mode, but that doesn't mean that is what would be right for a game I play with others. 

 

[ZooBeastman 12]

 Giving your reason as "I like it." therefore it is good is stupid

 

This is simply wrong, it is not stupid to be unable to describe reasons for artistic or entertainment engagement in something; many people who spend great deals of time assessing very subjective matters can spend large amounts of time attempting to analyse preference. It is also simply not required given the context. There is a simple test anyone can perform relating to the discussion in this thread, simply play the game [or mod] whilst locking your character into a first person view, do the same in third and then play mixed (as I assume most people probably do). 

 

There are many third and first person games throughout the games industry, I do no need someone to tell me why Gears of War was made third person rather than first; it is totally irrelevant, it plays fun and I think we can safely (perhaps I am naive) assume the developers believed it would be a more enjoyable experience as such. We could make the same inverse suggestion that first person perspectives also offer an enjoyable experience, but neither holds a monopoly on fun and I would guess, but I confess it is pure conjecture, that people who advocate third person cameras probably enjoy third person games in general more. There is no stupidity for such people in not being able to give a precise reason, no more so than to be unable to give a precise reason of why that particular food tastes so good, or why Zeitgeist is the best track on 13 (it just is :P ).

 

I understand the path of least resistance comment and I accept that that simply removing difficulty in pursuit of reducing frustration or pure quality of life can work against the core aim of providing a enjoyable experience, I would contend however that a want for a third person camera isn't simply because it makes an easier less confusing game; that maybe true for some people but I would not suggest that is the only (or even major) reason third person is so prevalent.

 

I find it highly unlikely that if it was first person only I would play it for any great length of time, this is purely based on having played games from that perspective previously and generally finding the experience lacking from an entertainment perspective.

 

I can say why I like third person games though I wouldn't declare it stupid for anyone to be unable to explain why they like or dislike something, I'm not entirely sure liking something requires a rationale. That said, I like to be able to see my character doing things, I feel like I have a greater connection to what my avatar is, the pain he is suffering, the shit he is crawling through when I can see it.

 

-edited obvious typos

Edited August 23, 2013 by ZooBeastman

[ZooBeastman 12]

DayZ ~is~ a niche game. Most people don't like having to worry about eating, drinking, or disease. Mr. Hall and crew are making diseases even more complex. Soon you will need the correct antibiotic to treat various infections which will annoy the general public but is more the game he wants to make.

 

I do not see how any of this is related to a camera perspective.

 

I love all this stuff, I don't however see how it would influence something so detached?

Edited August 23, 2013 by ZooBeastman

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

I think I'll try to explain one last time why I think that the 3rd person cam as it is now is detrimental to gameplay.

 

For me it's not about realism, authenticity, being hardcore or an old-school DayZ hipster or any of the other things that get levelled at you when you dare to suggest changing something that has become the norm.  It really is purely about gameplay and I think the 3rd person cam currently does need "fixing".

 

Here's one gameplay example where for me the 3rd person cam massively detracts from what could be potentially awesome gameplay scenario.

 

So you're in the new Cherno/Electro, scouring the streets for loot, moving from cover to cover and being a very careful and tactful player.  Now let's remember that in the new Chrernarus almost every building is enterable and in the cities most of those buildings now have multiple floors with windows overlooking the streets.  These vantage points (and there's now a lot of them) simply don't exist in the mod so currently you only really have a few rooftops to worry about.

 

Now a careful player will be keeping his eyes on the windows and rooftops looking for movement, potential snipers or just any general threat.  You may even be part of a team, in which case it'd be wise to get one of your team mates constantly looking at the windows overlooking your position while you go about your business.

 

But there's a problem here.  The 3rd person cam allows anyone inside those new interiors to look out of the windows and scan the surroundings without having to physically look out, they can just manipulate the cam to the right angle and stay completely hidden.

 

But hey, it's ok right?  I have 3rd person cam too so it's fair right?  Well not really no.  I can't use my 3rd person cam to scan the inside of all of the buildings and vantage points around me so I'm now confronted by a street with many windows and rooftops, all of which could potentially have a player in them looking straight at me, the problem is there's no way of me knowing.  It's now irrelevant how good my tactics are or how careful I am, I only have two choices:  Avoid that street altogether or take a massive gamble and head down the street with no way of knowing if I'm being watched and potentially sniped.

 

Common sense dictates to me that I now have to avoid every major street with windows overlooking it because I simply have no way of detecting any potential threats there, it's just a massive gamble (more than it should be) everytime I enter one of those streets.

 

This is just one of countless scenarios I can think of in which the 3rd person cam (as it currently is) massively detracts from the potential gameplay in a certain situation.

 

I'm not arguing to have it removed, I'm saying in certain scenarios it need restricting so as to avoid situations like the one above.

Edited August 23, 2013 by Fraggle
edited for spelling :/

[_Anubis_ (DayZ) 139]

 

 

There is a tactical disadvantage because someone could be camping behind a wall while you are running along (even if you are not in an open area), and they can know where you are without actually getting LOS, but you can't see them, because you are too far away from the wall, for example.

 

 

No. advantage or disadvantage in this case is due to poor tactical choiches, don't blame the game for that. You know 3dp is on, so you know you must move as close as possible to a wall otherwise you can be seen by others for the reason you mentioned: you know well how 3dp works.

 

If I am approaching a corner of a building I have two ways to peek around:

 

3dp on: safest is going as close as possible to the corner and [ab]using the periscope effect

3dp off: safest is going as far away as possible from the corner and creep sideway to expose yourself as less as possible

 

_Anubis_

[ZooBeastman 12]

I think I'll try to explain one last time why I think that the 3rd person cam as it is now is detrimental to gameplay.

 

For me it's not about realism, authenticity, being hardcore or an old-school DayZ hipster or any of the other things that get levelled at you when you dare to suggest changing something that has become the norm.  It really is purely about gameplay and I think the 3rd person cam currently does need "fixing".

 

Here's one gameplay example where for me he 3rd person cam massively detracts from what could be potentially awesome gameplay scenario.

 

So you're in the new Cherno/Electro, scouring the streets for loot, moving from cover to cover and being a very careful and tactful player.  Now let's remember that in the new Chrernarus almost every building is enterable and in the cities most of those buildings now have multiple floors with windows overlooking the streets.  These vantage points (and there's now a lot of them) simply don't exist in the mod so currently you only really have a few rooftops to worry about.

 

Now a careful player will be keeping his eyes on the windows and rooftops looking for movement, potential snipers or just any general threat.  You may even be part of a team, in which case it'd be wise to get one of your team mates constantly looking at the windows overlooking your position while you go about your business.

 

But there's a problem here.  The 3rd person cam allows anyone inside those new interiors to look out of the windows and scan the surroundings without having to physically look out, they can just manipulate the cam to the right angle and stay completely hidden.

 

But hey, it's ok right?  I have 3rd person cam to too so it's fair right?  Well not really no.  I can't use my 3rd person cam to scan the inside of all of the buildings and vantage points around me so I'm now confronted by a street with many windows and rooftops, all of which could potentially have a player in them looking straight at me, the problem is there's no way of me knowing.  It's now irrelevant how good my tactics are or how careful I am, I only have two choices:  Avoid that street altogether or take a massive gamble and head down the street with no way of knowing if I'm being watched and potentially sniped.

 

Common sense dictates to me that I now have to avoid every major street with windows overlooking it because I simply have no way of detecting any potential threats there, it's just a massive gamble (more than it should be) everytime I enter one of those streets.

 

This is just one of countless scenarios I can think of on whoch the 3rd person cam (as it currently is) massively detracts from the potential gameplay in a certain situation.

 

I'm not arguing to have it removed, I'm saying in certain scenarios it need restricting so as to avoid situations like the one above.

 

I actually agree in the sense that I believe forcing people to be vulnerable during recon is a good thing and I would start with the prone camera, just above your feet, facing forward. I'm not sure the hypothetical position you put yourself in would be much better in first person only though :p

Edited August 23, 2013 by ZooBeastman

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

Well one simple and easy fix that'd solve a few issues would be to just lock the horizontal plane of the camera.  Just doing that alone would make it trickier (although still possible at distance) to use the cam to look over the edge of buildings and down from windows without exposing yourself.

 

Maybe when you kneel or go prone the cam could tighten up to the player, slightly restricting the usual freedom it would give you but still allowing you to use it as your "peripheral" vision.  Not sure really, there's lot's of potential ways of going about it without ruining the actual use of the  3rd person cam.

 

Why do we need a 3rd person camera that allows us to look at the top of our own head?  Anyone?

Edited August 23, 2013 by Fraggle

[SmashT 10907]

I prefer third person when moving around and first when in combat, third person isn't the problem though and it doesn't need to be removed. The exploits associated with it however do need to be fixed from a gameplay/balance standpoint (looking around walls, over ledges/walls from complete safety) Does anyone have any valid reasons why those exploits should be kept? So far I haven't seen any other then people want to continue using it as a crutch.

 

I think people are asking the wrong questions tbh, it's not "should third person be removed" but "how can we improve third person gameplay/balance wise and limit it's exploits."

Edited August 23, 2013 by SmashT

[_Anubis_ (DayZ) 139]

I actually agree in the sense that I believe forcing people to be vulnerable during recon is a good thing and I would start with the prone camera, just above your feet, facing forward. I'm not sure the hypothetical position you put yourself in would be much better in first person only though :P

100% agree.

 

Again, another case where you put yourself in a poor tactical situation: you walk in a street fully visible to each and every window of each and every floor (and whoever is on the street on top) but you can scan only a fraction of that  vast environment.

 

A sniper would kill you easily with or without 3dp. 

 

_Anubis_

[-Gews- 7443]

Why do we need a 3rd person camera that allows us to look at the top of our own head?  Anyone?

 

Because carrying one of these is inconvenient?

 

 

I still haven't heard any great arguments for third person, apart from "I like it better".

 

I also don't see any easy or worthwhile way to fix the issues with it.

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

100% agree.

 

Again, another case where you put yourself in a poor tactical situation: you walk in a street fully visible to each and every window of each and every floor (and whoever is on the street on top) but you can scan only a fraction of that  vast environment.

 

A sniper would kill you easily with or without 3dp. 

 

_Anubis_

But in every single street there's windows on both sides :/  How should I avoid putting myself in danger or at least minimise the danger?  I can't because every window has a potential invisible sniper in it meaning the only sensible choice is to now avoid every street in the city.

 

A sniper without the ability to exploit the cam would have to physically look out of the window to scan the streets, potentially giving his position away to players that are observant.

 

That's what I mean about it being detrimental to gameplay.

Edited August 23, 2013 by Fraggle

[ZooBeastman 12]

Why do we need a 3rd person camera that allows us to look at the top of our own head?  Anyone?

 

While not the best of answers, 3rd person cameras can be made to feel very er... clunky when there's obvious barriers locking the camera. There probably is a more sensible middle ground. Even if the camera tightened on you significantly while under a roof (that must be measurable) you'd probably go a long way without harming the third person experience; wouldn't solve all peaks; assuming solve is the right word.

Edited August 23, 2013 by ZooBeastman

[ZooBeastman 12]

I actually think getting the camera something like APB would be about right, does still have the corner peaks though

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

While not the best of answers, 3rd person cameras can be made to feel very er... clunky when there's obvious barriers locking the camera. There probably is a more sensible middle ground. Even if the camera tightened on you significantly while under a roof (that must be measurable) you'd probably go a long way without harming the third person experience; wouldn't solve all peaks; assuming solve is the right word.

I agree, it would have to be done properly.  I'd rather keep it as it is now than have a "fixed" version of the 3rd person cam that is a nightmare to use.

[mercules 1290]

This is simply wrong, it is not stupid to be unable to describe reasons for artistic or entertainment engagement in something; many people who spend great deals of time assessing very subjective matters can spend large amounts of time attempting to analyse preference. It is also simply not required given the context. There is a simple test anyone can perform relating to the discussion in this thread, simply play the game [or mod] whilst locking your character into a first person view, do the same in third and then play mixed (as I assume most people probably do). 

 

There are many third and first person games throughout the games industry, I do no need someone to tell me why Gears of War was made third person rather than first; it is totally irrelevant, it plays fun and I think we can safely (perhaps I am naive) assume the developers believed it would be a more enjoyable experience as such. We could make the same inverse suggestion that first person perspectives also offer an enjoyable experience, but neither holds a monopoly on fun and I would guess, but I confess it is pure conjecture, that people who advocate third person cameras probably enjoy third person games in general more. There is no stupidity for such people in not being able to give a precise reason, no more so than to be unable to give a precise reason of why that particular food tastes so good, or why Zeitgeist is the best track on 13 (it just is :P ).

 

I understand the path of least resistance comment and I accept that that simply removing difficulty in pursuit of reducing frustration or pure quality of life can work against the core aim of providing a enjoyable experience, I would contend however that a want for a third person camera isn't simply because it makes an easier less confusing game; that maybe true for some people but I would not suggest that is the only (or even major) reason third person is so prevalent.

 

I find it highly unlikely that if it was first person only I would play it for any great length of time, this is purely based on having played games from that perspective previously and generally finding the experience lacking from an entertainment perspective.

 

I can say why I like third person games though I wouldn't declare it stupid for anyone to be unable to explain why they like or dislike something, I'm not entirely sure liking something requires a rationale. That said, I like to be able to see my character doing things, I feel like I have a greater connection to what my avatar is, the pain he is suffering, the shit he is crawling through when I can see it.

 

-edited obvious typos

 

I didn't exactly say it was stupid they couldn't articulate why they liked it. I stated that it was stupid to be given as a reason with no other support for it. "I like it" is not a reason, it is a conclusion. You can not have a discussion with nothing but conclusions. "This is a pen." "Yes it is a pen." "I like this better." "Okay, how come?" "Because I prefer it." "Okay, what makes you prefer it?" "I prefer it." There is a reason you prefer that pen, maybe you can't explain that the grip in your fingers feels better, that the ink comes out smoother, that the weight is right for your hand, or that the grip fits the way you hold it, but if you stopped and considered it your SHOULD be able to come up with reasons for that conclusion. What is stupid, is not the person, but not understanding that even unconscious preferences have reasons behind them. When people can't say why they prefer something it is typically because they haven't put any thought into it. 

Look, I play MMOs and I play Mass Effect. In those you are pretty much forced into 3rd person. Mass Effect won't let you go into 1st at all and some MMOs won't either. In general I do not like it. I do not prefer that style of game. Just like I don't prefer 3/4 perspective. I get why some of those games utilize those points of view and wish I could change them. I can, however explain WHY I prefer 1st person. I feel like I am the character. I don't have omniscient knowledge the character should not have. It locks me into the world and makes everything more interesting for me as I HAVE to crouch to look under that desk or find something to get up on to look on top of that shelf and so it makes me interact with the game world more. I enjoy that interaction and so welcome it and dislike things like 3rd person perspective that remove me from that interaction. Like Dslyecki I find myself feeling more challenged and "living" in the game world for that time that I play the game. Games are a way to become something and someone else for a bit to imagine "what if" and if the interface is bad it pulls me back from that. 

 

I prefer third person when moving around and first when in combat, third person isn't the problem though and it doesn't need to be removed. The exploits associated with it do though (looking around walls, over ledges/walls from complete safety) Does anyone have any valid reasons why those exploits should be kept? So far I haven't seen any other then people want to continue using it as a crutch.

 

The problem comes in that the most straight forward and simplest way to remove those exploits is to simply do away with 3rd person. As I pointed out maybe a solution where the person's body was translucent so you could see through them and otherwise were locked at eye level just a few feet back from their head would resolve those crutches? Maybe the "shoulder cam" which really is very much like 1st Person Perspective but gives a person a bit more sense of their character's body would do much the same?

[SmashT 10907]

Personally I think a locked shoulder cam is the best option, have it switchable in the options so players can choose which side they want it on possibly. As long as people can't tilt it around/over objects it will eliminate most of the issues people have with third person.

[Siberian (DayZ) 527]

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But there's a problem here.  The 3rd person cam allows anyone inside those new interiors to look out of the windows and scan the surroundings without having to physically look out, they can just manipulate the cam to the right angle and stay completely hidden.

 

yes because clearly the scenario is never reversed !!!

 

how is this scenario any different then any other countless chance to run into someone unseen ??? being popped from atop sniper hill in cherno ? unfair i cant see you wayyy over there under the tree, i guess we should remove trees and snipers to ?