First vs Third Person Discussion (Dslyecxi video)

[Inception. 9443]

You serious? You just accept that "explaination"? :lol:

 

I never said I accepted it, did I?

[RooBurger 285]

It's easier to role-play as a bandit and ambush people when I'm using 3rd person. Is that what you mean by  "encourages role playing" and "player-player interaction"?

[Ken Bean 175]

Oh, as the list of points was posted a few days after your explanation there, it appeared as if there was no explanation.

 

So, I apologise if you have explained before: what about player interaction?

Oh, okay.

Player-player-interaction has more depth in regards of what you are doing. If someone forces you to surrender, you actually see your hands being raised. Also if you are not in 1st person, you have a chance to better watch and understand situations because you have more overview and more time. You are not the "run around the corner, seeing sth clicky-clicky-kill-kill-dude". You littertaly have time to judge a player and to decide what to do. Should I engage or not?

It's part of the tactical advance the 3rd person offers. It shifts the game away from a more reflexive gameplay to a more deliberate one.

Also it looks better and supports the "this is your story" feeling better than 1st person could do.

To illustrate this, maybe a video might help.

Could you imagine to make such a video in first person only? Wouldn't work well I guess.

Edited September 4, 2013 by Ken Bean

[Ken Bean 175]

You serious? You just accept that "explaination"? :lol:

Well, I'm curious about your arguments and reasons. What you just did was showing your ignorance.

Edited September 4, 2013 by Ken Bean

[Jex 1104]

 the hardcore fans with enthusiasm for the development of the game acknowledge that the issue needs some attention.

 

 

Can we all please stop with this fallacy that 1st person view is "hardcore" - I mean seriously, how long have some of you been gaming. Since when has first person ever been "hardcore"

 

OMG you're playing quake you're so hardcore

 

Ghost recon? fuck me you're hardcore

 

OMFGZ you're playing BF3 you're so l337!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

First person view is not hardcore any more than using a mouse is hardcore but if your argument hinges on trying to convince everyone that 1st person is so unplayable then you've just admitted how much of a noob you are because you can't play the most basic FPS which every gamer can since they were about 5 years old.

[Inception. 9443]

Can we all please stop with this fallacy that 1st person view is "hardcore" - I mean seriously, how long have some of you been gaming. Since when has first person ever been "hardcore"

 

OMG you're playing quake you're so hardcore

 

Ghost recon? fuck me you're hardcore

 

OMFGZ you're playing BF3 you're so l337!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

First person view is not hardcore any more than using a mouse is hardcore but if your argument hinges on trying to convince everyone that 1st person is so unplayable then you've just admitted how much of a noob you are because you can't play the most basic FPS which every gamer can since they were about 5 years old.

 

The argument wasn't that any game in first person view was hardcore.

[Wayze 549]

Well, I'm curious about your arguments and reasons. What you just did was showing your ignorance.

If I see a guy with 3rd person enable, I don't have to worry about him at all. I can flank him and just shot him in the face, so why should I keep him alive? I mean, he has some cool gear, I got my third person and the first moment he stops I will shot him in the face so gear does not get broken.

You know, sometimes the "kill on sight" thing is actually a part of the game. DayZ is kind of a survival simulator, and what do you think would people do in real life if they see each other with weapons in their hands? What do you think they would do in a world where everyone fights for food and safety? Do you think this guy would just like "Hey I am friendly man don't shot buddy!". With that attitude you would probably not survive a day in such a survival scenario.

If a human is pushed to his limits, which obviously occurs within an apocalypse, this human will do everything to survive. There is no "Hey I am friendly buddy!". A friendship with a stranger is something very dangerous and probably very rare. Even after days you cannot trust that dude, maybe he will kill you while you are asleep. However, some situations are different. If you see someone almost dead or almost starved maybe you would help him. Give him food etc.

And I think that exactly that should be the way how it goes in DayZ, people should not be friendly if they see each other with guns. I don't like that "Friendly?" and all that sh*t. It is exactly the oppisite of role playing. And you said even you could observe the player and see if he is friendly. Well, that will take you some very, very cool expiriences. If there is no 3rd person you would have probably no spotted him, there would maybe even be a face to face confrontation. Regardless if you like kos or not, this is a essential part in DayZ. Exactly these confrontations where you have to decide in fractions of seconds if you wanna shot or not. In third person there are no confrontations like that, maybe in a building but that is probably rare. You stop a guy, you either kill him or interact with him. If you decide to kill him he got probably no chance to survive and if you interact him you are in the upper hand always because he probably will not be able to locate you. Additional to that you are not into your character as if you were in first person. Try it out, play DayZ on third person and on first person. Go to cherno and try both out. You will realise that playing in first person a trip to cherno is way more frightning and intense than playing in third person. You never know if there is somebody. This has huge impact to the roleplaying element. In third person you have the overview, you are not afraid at all because you are aware of the situation. This takes you somehow out of the situation because you are like a good, you can see something you character is not able to see.

In a face to face situation in first person you don't play the role, you are the role. The fractions of seconds you have to decide if you shot or not, firstly that moment is very thrilling and shocking and secondly you don't have time for role playing. It is a decisioun which comes from yourself. Your instinct, what you would do in that situation.

 

Third person simply takes away a lot of non scripted events which are essential to DayZ. You will never be suprised like without third person. You get used to the game and feel no fear at all, why should you, there is nothing going to happen that is unexpected. Sure maybe it will, but if you are careful it probably won't.

 

Do you think that is roleplaying? Observing everything and having the situation 90% under controll? That is in my opinion the exact oppisite of what you described.

Edited September 4, 2013 by Wayze

[Trizzo 632]

1 )Player-player-interaction has more depth in regards of what you are doing. If someone forces you to surrender, you actually see your hands being raised. Also if you are not in 1st person, you have a chance to better watch and understand situations because you have more overview and more time. You are not the "run around the corner, seeing sth clicky-clicky-kill-kill-dude". You littertaly have time to judge a player and to decide what to do. Should I engage or not?

2) It's part of the tactical advance the 3rd person offers. It shifts the game away from a more reflexive gameplay to a more deliberate one.

3) Also it looks better and supports the "this is your story" feeling better than 1st person could do.

Could you imagine to make such a video in first person only? Wouldn't work well I guess.

To illustrate this, maybe a video might help.

 

 

Every few days I’m coming and going due to study and Ken Bean is still rocking the atrocious arguments, this is true dedication to a craft.

 

1) The strawmen first person view situation, suggests all first person boils down to is, "run around the corner, seeing sth clicky-clicky-kill-kill-dude". If you fail to press Q and E and slice the pie in first person thats your failing, not ours. If you have a twitchy instinct to clicky clickly kill in first person i suggest getting of the CoD and onto some codeine. Besdies first person does not dicate any action you take. Next.

 

2) Third person is a "deliberative" style of gameplay  :lol:  Orwell would be proud of this doublespeak. Lying down in long grass and using a free look periscope is "deliberative" as opposed to having to pick a vantage point that gives cover/concealment, choosing which to compromise with if you can't find a vantage which provides both, all whilst considering how not to skyline yourself because you are relying on realisitic line of sight. Now thats deliberative. But I’m guessing you haven’t actually had to experience this because your tactical advantage crutch is crippling the chances for thoughtful tactics. Also interesting that you describe TPV as a "tactical advantage", very telling.

 

3) Because using a promotional video that is neither first or truly third person but a contrived cinematic video is a good way to put your case forward.

Edited September 4, 2013 by Trizzo

[Jex 1104]

Because there isn't a lot of 1st person only servers because admins want to please everybody, and most people can't find any populated first person only servers with good ping, and if you play on a tpv server you are at a disadvantage against players in tpv, because they can see you over walls, around corners, over buildings, etc...

 

But this shouldn't be the reason for making it 1st person only right? I thought Rocket was making a game about an experience which 3rd person not only ruins but allows to be exploited as well. When game devs try to please everyone it always ends up bad for the game. Rocket should take a stance and stick with it. It's unlikely a compromise will be made to getting 3rd person so it can't be exploited, as if you make it that way then it'll most likely render 3rd person useless.

[St. Jimmy 1631]

- player-player interaction

- encourages role playing

- tactical overview, no tunnel vision

- reflects natural self and souround awareness

- no desorientation in buildings like with 1st person

 

This and more already has been said.

 

And last but not least, given that allmost everyone is playing on 3rd person server (even those who complain about), people seems to like it.

- Player interaction is the same in both persons except in 3rd person you can see someone before they have a chance to see you

- Both person encourage role playing as much. Sounds like an illusion of rpg = 3rd person

- How about peek your head over the wall and observe and move your head with alt and increase fov if you want

- Well self awarness yes, surrounding can be increased with fov and triple screens or just looking around bit more

- If this means getting stuck then this is true in Arma 2 so it's true in the mod. In Arma 3 and very likely in Standalone this isn't an issue anymore

[aeinola 25]

Because there isn't a lot of 1st person only servers because admins want to please everybody, and most people can't find any populated first person only servers with good ping, and if you play on a tpv server you are at a disadvantage against players in tpv, because they can see you over walls, around corners, over buildings, etc...

Blaa blaah blaah, how many servers YOU need to play? Im sure you can find ONE 1st person only server that suits your needs if not, host one and get all 1st person fan boys to play there. It seems there are lots of them in this forum, should be easy. All of you just cry cry cry and dont do anything about it. Only solution you guys can figure out is to force everyone to play your way and make the game less enjoyable for lots of players. So selfish, shame on you.

[aeinola 25]

Rocket's earlier idea was to have 1st/3rd person toggle only available in options menu but that was thankfully scrapped from what I can tell. A pretty terrible idea that would have achieved nothing aside from killing 1st person view.

This would have killed 3rd person for me. If i can use only one view in game session it would be 1st person. I just cant shoot with 3rd person view (i play on servers where is no crosshairs). The best and most enjoyable way to play for me is when i can switch between the views when ever i want.

[Vicco 123]

The argument wasn't that any game in first person view was hardcore.

Baloney. This thread is full of that, referenced by "hardcore," "easy," "difficult," "cheating" and "exploit."

Many references to 1P being "the real hard core DayZ players."

It's rife with arrogant supporters of 1P puffing their feathers, and degrading others.

None of which holds any water, since the best players making YT vids never complain about 3P, or it giving anybody unequal advantage. They just play the effing game.

IMO any complaining about "exploits" is crybabying. The same people will kill and be killed whatever the view.

Good players survive, lesser players die.

Seconding Ken Bean's point about player interaction, 3P allows players to often start such interactions in safety.

When a player just stumbles upon another in 1P, the usual reaction from both is not to talk, but to fire.

That does NOT help player interaction.

Of course really good shooting/moving players can dance, talk and shoot all at the same time.

I highly doubt any of the 1P advocates here are among them, since they can't seem to even master staying out of the sights of rooftop campers. They continually cry about somebody getting the drop on them. 1P won't help them. Not one bit. It's a trash argument.

Mister Bean already explained his mention of role playing, which is obvious and shouldn't even need repeating.

All that remains is "immersion." I'm just as immersed in 3P as in 1P. It's a different view of the same world.

Whining about immersion in 3P DayZ reveals a failure of imagination.

I was on the fence when this thread started. If 1P body awareness and tunnel vision were fixed, I figured 1P would be fine.

I play plenty of 1P games. 1P is badly wrought in DayZ.

I've come to realize that DayZ is a 3P game. Proof? Patently solipsistic 1P arguments on this forum, my experience, many thousands of YT vids, and players' preference for 3P servers.

That's all I need. Go Rocket. I'm sure if you release a 1P only SA, I will play it.

But the whining ain't gonna stop. Ever.

[terrvik 2409]

The First person "arguments" isn't about degrading others or their "skill levels", at least not for me. It's about degrading myself, making myself stress when I play and push me far outside my comfort zone. Every time I play on a TPV server it feels like I'm releasing some kind of pressure every time I enter third person. I never complained about being killed or made a point about it being about skill. I use "hardcore" to describe the experience, not the difficulty, that's a big difference.

Edited September 4, 2013 by Terrorviktor

[tommes 331]

Can we all please stop with this fallacy that 1st person view is "hardcore" - I mean seriously, how long have some of you been gaming. Since when has first person ever been "hardcore"

 

Playing DayZ in 1st person only is not the only criteria for sure, but more hardcore than using 3dp as well.

[Inception. 9443]

 

 

Baloney is delicious.

 

 

The First person "arguments" isn't about degrading others or their "skill levels", at least not for me. It's about degrading myself, making myself stress when I play and push me far outside my comfort zone. Every time I play on a TPV server it feels like I'm releasing some kind of pressure every time I enter third person. I never complained about being killed or made a point about it being about skill. I use "hardcore" to describe the experience, not the difficulty, that's a big difference.

 

I agree to this.

[brzator47@gmail.com 524]

 

I think some kind of autorun mode is needed regardless, maybe only active while autorun is active? Autorun would be a button press, then you don't have to use WASD, but can still control with mouse, toggle freelook (2x Alt) and you can watch the surroundings as you run. Autorun (and third person) stops when you hit something (so people can't spend the whole time scouting as they move, or just autorun against a wall to exploit third person) or when WASD or stance change is pressed.

Yep I agree. Autorun mode would be useful and TPV could be available during autorun until you stop or hit something then it automatically zooms into first person. You could still use freelook and TPV wouldn't be restricted in any way while you're travelling so you could look at your character for those who feel that's important.

 

 

This would have killed 3rd person for me. If i can use only one view in game session it would be 1st person. I just cant shoot with 3rd person view (i play on servers where is no crosshairs). The best and most enjoyable way to play for me is when i can switch between the views when ever i want.

Right click iron sights would still be available so you'd be basically shooting in first person and do everything else in third person. Basically how most third person players play right now. Why would anyone lock themselves into first person view then? FPV would be dead outside FPV only servers.

[tommes 331]

All that remains is "immersion." I'm just as immersed in 3P as in 1P. It's a different view of the same world.

Whining about immersion in 3P DayZ reveals a failure of imagination.

I was on the fence when this thread started. If 1P body awareness and tunnel vision were fixed, I figured 1P would be fine.

I play plenty of 1P games. 1P is badly wrought in DayZ.

I've come to realize that DayZ is a 3P game. Proof? Patently solipsistic 1P arguments on this forum, my experience, many thousands of YT vids, and players' preference for 3P servers.

That's all I need. Go Rocket. I'm sure if you release a 1P only SA, I will play it.

But the whining ain't gonna stop. Ever.

 

The "immersion" in 3P sure is different from one in 1st.

 

Your thesis: DayZ is a TPV game because people make it so.

I think you shouldn't let people ruin a genuine game idea with their lazy- and lameness.

 

First person in DayZ is crappy? Yes, it is. They should definitely improve it. What do they have to do instead? Doing the impossible and finding a way to make 3rd person view inexploitable.

[Jex 1104]

The argument wasn't that any game in first person view was hardcore.

 

People are stating that the game is hardcore if you want to play first person which is obvious bollocks. I then pointed out how absurd this is by using examples.

[Ken Bean 175]

If I see a guy with 3rd person enable, I don't have to worry about him at all. I can flank him and just shot him in the face, so why should I keep him alive? I mean, he has some cool gear, I got my third person and the first moment he stops I will shot him in the face so gear does not get broken.

You know, sometimes the "kill on sight" thing is actually a part of the game. DayZ is kind of a survival simulator, and what do you think would people do in real life if they see each other with weapons in their hands? What do you think they would do in a world where everyone fights for food and safety? Do you think this guy would just like "Hey I am friendly man don't shot buddy!". With that attitude you would probably not survive a day in such a survival scenario.

If a human is pushed to his limits, which obviously occurs within an apocalypse, this human will do everything to survive. There is no "Hey I am friendly buddy!". A friendship with a stranger is something very dangerous and probably very rare. Even after days you cannot trust that dude, maybe he will kill you while you are asleep. However, some situations are different. If you see someone almost dead or almost starved maybe you would help him. Give him food etc.

And I think that exactly that should be the way how it goes in DayZ, people should not be friendly if they see each other with guns. I don't like that "Friendly?" and all that sh*t. It is exactly the oppisite of role playing. And you said even you could observe the player and see if he is friendly. Well, that will take you some very, very cool expiriences. If there is no 3rd person you would have probably no spotted him, there would maybe even be a face to face confrontation. Regardless if you like kos or not, this is a essential part in DayZ. Exactly these confrontations where you have to decide in fractions of seconds if you wanna shot or not. In third person there are no confrontations like that, maybe in a building but that is probably rare. You stop a guy, you either kill him or interact with him. If you decide to kill him he got probably no chance to survive and if you interact him you are in the upper hand always because he probably will not be able to locate you. Additional to that you are not into your character as if you were in first person. Try it out, play DayZ on third person and on first person. Go to cherno and try both out. You will realise that playing in first person a trip to cherno is way more frightning and intense than playing in third person. You never know if there is somebody. This has huge impact to the roleplaying element. In third person you have the overview, you are not afraid at all because you are aware of the situation. This takes you somehow out of the situation because you are like a good, you can see something you character is not able to see.

In a face to face situation in first person you don't play the role, you are the role. The fractions of seconds you have to decide if you shot or not, firstly that moment is very thrilling and shocking and secondly you don't have time for role playing. It is a decisioun which comes from yourself. Your instinct, what you would do in that situation.

 

Third person simply takes away a lot of non scripted events which are essential to DayZ. You will never be suprised like without third person. You get used to the game and feel no fear at all, why should you, there is nothing going to happen that is unexpected. Sure maybe it will, but if you are careful it probably won't.

 

Do you think that is roleplaying? Observing everything and having the situation 90% under controll? That is in my opinion the exact oppisite of what you described.

I hope this is part of your roleplaying, otherwise you said some really desturbing things, dude. And I'd really hope that you are far far away if ever such an apacalypse should happen. My instinct probably would be to find other people to survive together. Fear is a bad adviser. Fear of the unknown and stranger makes you switch into "clicky clicky kill kill mode". Maybe the third person cam could help to take your fear or at least ease the stress level a bit?

Btw

I frequently play on 1st and 3rd person server and in the latter case, I sometimes switch. It does't make me less or more hardcore.

Edited September 4, 2013 by Ken Bean

[Ken Bean 175]

Every few days I’m coming and going due to study and Ken Bean is still rocking the atrocious arguments, this is true dedication to a craft.

 

1) The strawmen first person view situation, suggests all first person boils down to is, "run around the corner, seeing sth clicky-clicky-kill-kill-dude". If you fail to press Q and E and slice the pie in first person thats your failing, not ours. If you have a twitchy instinct to clicky clickly kill in first person i suggest getting of the CoD and onto some codeine. Besdies first person does not dicate any action you take. Next.

 

2) Third person is a "deliberative" style of gameplay  :lol:  Orwell would be proud of this doublespeak. Lying down in long grass and using a free look periscope is "deliberative" as opposed to having to pick a vantage point that gives cover/concealment, choosing which to compromise with if you can't find a vantage which provides both, all whilst considering how not to skyline yourself because you are relying on realisitic line of sight. Now thats deliberative. But I’m guessing you haven’t actually had to experience this because your tactical advantage crutch is crippling the chances for thoughtful tactics. Also interesting that you describe TPV as a "tactical advantage", very telling.

 

3) Because using a promotional video that is neither first or truly third person but a contrived cinematic video is a good way to put your case forward.

So you probably find your arguments cool or better? I also didn't made such extreme positions like you claim.

If I say 3rd person shifts the focus a bit more to something else, I didn't mean that "all first person boils down to is, "run around the corner, seeing sth clicky-clicky-kill-kill-dude"." But you guys need your extremes, don't ya?

 

I'm pretty certain that I said sth like "3rd person helps/supports the role playing" and not that you would be able to make use of it or that you would be interested in.

However, I may regret the "clicky-clicky-kill-kill" thing since this probably is the point my whole argumentation for you boils down.

 

That the 3rd person perspective can offer a tactical advantage is a nobrainer and surprises me that it needs to be explained. However the additional overview helps to oversee a situation. It also helps to keep your cool. I really don't want to be constantly thrilled by super-action-immersion-vis-a-vis-survival-fighting against the *whole everything*.

 

It also is not my case, I didn't make up this topic and try to tell everyone which point of view all player have to play.

Yes, and I used the video to illustrate that 3rd person has its advantages. Well, sue me if you can't get along with it. Otherwise, is something wrong with it? Wasn't it 3rd person?

Edited September 4, 2013 by Ken Bean

[Jex 1104]

Baloney. This thread is full of that, referenced by "hardcore," "easy," "difficult," "cheating" and "exploit."

Many references to 1P being "the real hard core DayZ players."

It's rife with arrogant supporters of 1P puffing their feathers, and degrading others.

None of which holds any water, since the best players making YT vids never complain about 3P, or it giving anybody unequal advantage. They just play the effing game.

IMO any complaining about "exploits" is crybabying. The same people will kill and be killed whatever the view.

Good players survive, lesser players die.

Seconding Ken Bean's point about player interaction, 3P allows players to often start such interactions in safety.

When a player just stumbles upon another in 1P, the usual reaction from both is not to talk, but to fire.

That does NOT help player interaction.

Of course really good shooting/moving players can dance, talk and shoot all at the same time.

I highly doubt any of the 1P advocates here are among them, since they can't seem to even master staying out of the sights of rooftop campers. They continually cry about somebody getting the drop on them. 1P won't help them. Not one bit. It's a trash argument.

Mister Bean already explained his mention of role playing, which is obvious and shouldn't even need repeating.

All that remains is "immersion." I'm just as immersed in 3P as in 1P. It's a different view of the same world.

Whining about immersion in 3P DayZ reveals a failure of imagination.

I was on the fence when this thread started. If 1P body awareness and tunnel vision were fixed, I figured 1P would be fine.

I play plenty of 1P games. 1P is badly wrought in DayZ.

I've come to realize that DayZ is a 3P game. Proof? Patently solipsistic 1P arguments on this forum, my experience, many thousands of YT vids, and players' preference for 3P servers.

That's all I need. Go Rocket. I'm sure if you release a 1P only SA, I will play it.

But the whining ain't gonna stop. Ever.

 

Actually the people I was referring to are the 3rd person supports saying it's too hardcore to play 1st person.

 

And wtf is this tunnel vision you're talking about ?

 

YT vids are better shot in 3rd person that isn't an argument.

 

Player preference isn't an argument - the game will still sell 1st person only.

[Jex 1104]

Playing DayZ in 1st person only is not the only criteria for sure, but more hardcore than using 3dp as well.

 

Bullshit - so playing BF3 is hardcore now or any other first person shooter? are they all hard core - no. They have the EXACT same view as every other fps out there.

 

Trying to argue this is not the case is asinine.

 

What the 3rd person crowd are trying to do is get everyone away from the truth which is, "3rd person view is a crutch and can be exploited to your advantage which is why 99% of FPS's don't have this as an option"

 

FPS is the normal mode for a first person shooter. Easy mode is 3rd person - there is no hardcore mode.

[Ken Bean 175]

Bullshit - so playing BF3 is hardcore now or any other first person shooter? are they all hard core - no. They have the EXACT same view as every other fps out there.

 

Trying to argue this is not the case is asinine.

 

What the 3rd person crowd are trying to do is get everyone away from the truth which is, "3rd person view is a crutch and can be exploited to your advantage which is why 99% of FPS's don't have this as an option"

 

FPS is the normal mode for a first person shooter. Easy mode is 3rd person - there is no hardcore mode.

I'm confused. How many percent of the 1st person shooter don't have third person? ;D

Well anyway, this also is questionable since the third person can make things also more difficult.

But I figure there hardly is interest in a unbiased debate here. Let's go back to sth serious in real life. In any case it's better than wasting time.

Edited September 4, 2013 by Ken Bean

[tommes 331]

Bullshit - so playing BF3 is hardcore now or any other first person shooter? are they all hard core - no. They have the EXACT same view as every other fps out there.

 

Trying to argue this is not the case is asinine.

 

What the 3rd person crowd are trying to do is get everyone away from the truth which is, "3rd person view is a crutch and can be exploited to your advantage which is why 99% of FPS's don't have this as an option"

 

FPS is the normal mode for a first person shooter. Easy mode is 3rd person - there is no hardcore mode.

 

Uhm...and where's the bullshit you are referring to? I just said, that playing DayZ in 1st person only is somewhat more hardcore than using the crutch of 3rd person view for personal comfort. That's all. You must have misunderstood something.