First vs Third Person Discussion (Dslyecxi video)

[RooBurger 285]

Wow...

 

There you go using the exploite word again , if I play say WOW or Rift or SWTOR in 3rdp view am I exploiting ?

No I can not speak for everybody only myself but there is a disproportional representation in this thread when compaired to the game community as a group that's why their called the silent majority nothing short of a bomb under them gets them moving even then they will simply vote with their wallets . 3rdp view works , its popular , it makes sales , it doesn't hurt anybody why butcher it .

cheers

 

Multiple people have explained the same things to you over and over again in many different ways, yet you seem to have understood nothing.

[SMLE 39]

What do you mean... no logical reason to change how 3rd person works? Even if there were dedicated first person and first/third person hives and servers, what about the people who like to see their character but hate the "exploits" you can do with that view?

 

Just because you like the exploitable view with all its faults, that doesn't mean it's illogical for people to want to make it less exploitable.

No but it is logical to stick with a formula that has made or has helped make DayZ what it is today .

I agreed earlier about 3rdp view and the prone stance could be looked at maybe you missed that but what this led to was people calling for everything but the loading screen being in 1stp view (ok not quite but very close to) .

cheers

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

I did not ignore the point and yes I dislike the use of terms that misrepresent the truth .

cheers

 

Yes you did. I made the point that there are people who play third person who don't like the current system.

 

 

there are no problems for the vast majority of 3rdp view players as shown by server numbers and sales thus far

 

This is just a statement you pulled out of your ass. You have no solid proof to backup you claims.

 

 

---

 

As for the word exploit, you can call it whatever you want, magic floating eye, play style, using the tools you're offered, exploiting the system. No matter what you call it, it doesn't change what it is.

 

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

No but it is logical to stick with a formula that has made or has helped make DayZ what it is today .

I agreed earlier about 3rdp view and the prone stance could be looked at maybe you missed that but what this led to was people calling for everything but the loading screen being in 1stp view (ok not quite but very close to) .

cheers

 

Exactly, No.

 

You agreed about 3rd person? Wow, I saw that. You must have missed it though because you just said the current system was perfect and anyone that wants it changed is a first person lover or something stupid like that.

 

I'm just glad you actually responded to my point finally. Thanks.

[SMLE 39]

Wow...

 

 

Multiple people have explained the same things to you over and over again in many different ways, yet you seem to have understood nothing.

Multi people have given vested opinions and have totally missed the point .

Oh I think I have a good grasp on what their saying and why their saying it no problem there thanks .

cheers

[SMLE 39]

Exactly, No.

 

You agreed about 3rd person? Wow, I saw that. You must have missed it though because you just said the current system was perfect and anyone that wants it changed is a first person lover or something stupid like that.

 

I'm just glad you actually responded to my point finally. Thanks.

You know how upperty the blue names get when you put words in their mouth , well it works for normal people to .

If you want to discuss fine if you want to make up stories sorry im not interested .

cheers

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

You just said that if there is first & third person hives there's no logical reason for changing third person. Implying everyone who plays third person has no problems with it.

 

Then a post or two later you say you've already gotten on board with changing third person view.

 

Can't you see how circular and frustrating that is for the rest of us?

[SMLE 39]

You just said that if there is first & third person hives there's no logical reason for changing third person. Implying everyone who plays third person has no problems with it.

 

Then a post or two later you say you've already gotten on board with changing third person view.

 

Can't you see how circular and frustrating that is for the rest of us?

I can see your point and i'm sorry , against my better judgment I tried to compromise that was a bad idea its the start of the slippery slope you never want to get on , in this case it led to people adding more and more situations where 3rdp view should be forced to 1stp view until it was beyond silly . In future I will stick to my argument , again sorry for the frustration .

On another note I just had a look on DayZ Commander wow I didn't realize how desperat the 1stp view people were there are so few servers for them I honestly feel sorry for them , maybe we should be talking about ways to make 1stp view better .

cheers

Edited August 30, 2013 by SMLE

[Ken Bean 175]

I can see your point and i'm sorry , against my better judgment I tried to compromise that was a bad idea its the start of the slippery slope you never want to get on , in this case it led to people adding more and more situations where 3rdp view should be forced to 1stp view until it was beyond silly . In future I will stick to my argument , again sorry for the frustration .

On another note I just had a look on DayZ Commander wow I didn't realize how desperat the 1stp view people were there are so few servers for them I honestly feel sorry for them , maybe we should be talking about ways to make 1stp view better .

cheers

Not only desperate. If you are convinced that 1st person is the shit (which isn't) and if you have to see that almost no one plays on or offers 1st person server, then you probably think you are the only savvy one. ^^

Anyway, we've seen many of their arguments which most of the time are just claims or desturbing wrong wordings, as if they would use every chance to make a point.

And they have a lot excuses not to play on 1st person server.

They give the 3rd person view all the blame. Even though, 1st person atm just is brocken. It might be another valuable experience, but is not. It's a pain to be bound to 1st person only. The game loses too much depth. The world is too big and nice to play half a blind ant which cant see shit or what the character itself is doing. Really, why should I play such an awesome open world if I'm bound to a tunnel vision?

sad tunnel vision |= immersion

Not to mention that horses wear blinders for other reason than increasing the immersion level. ;)

Edited August 30, 2013 by Ken Bean

[Inception. 9443]

This topic... :facepalm:

 

What have you created, DemonGroover?!

 

First person > third person.

This is my opinion.

Edited August 30, 2013 by Inception.

[tommes 331]

Wrong game dude, play Battlefield.

You go away! Play some RPG!

And as said a thousand times, the fight system is fair. Everyone has equal chances. You just dont want to understand, right?

You dumb. That's not a question.

If you have a problem then actually name it.

The only problem in this thread is your trolling.

[Ken Bean 175]

This topic... :facepalm:

 

What have you created, DemonGroover?!

 

First person > third person.

This is my opinion.

 

The problem I have is not that you say 1st person > 3rd person.

It's your opinion and that's fine. The problem I is following: I would just play 1st person if I had that opinion and oppurtunity.

 

It's like favouring tee over coffe. Then you have tee and coffee on the table. Now you are drinking coffee and try to confince everyone else to drink tee. No, not only convince them, you try to ban coffee.

Edited August 30, 2013 by Ken Bean

[Inception. 9443]

As I said before blue names use jokes as a tool to calm things down , the above is not such a case , its belittleing people on these forums and not what I would expect from a Blue name who takes their position seriously .

cheers

If we blue names wanted to calm things down we would say something serious. What Fraggle posted was humour. Something that we laugh at. If you have come here expecting the Moderators [please, use that instead of blue names lol] to act serious 100% of the time, and will not like it when we are not, then I am afraid you are going to have a bad day.

I'm here to have fun and adventure. Not only that, of course. I slap people here and there.

What are you here for?

--

The problem I have is not that you say 1st person > 3rd person.

It's your opinion and that's fine. The problem I is following: I would just play 1st person if I had that opinion and oppurtunity.

It's like favouring tee over coffe. Then you have tee and coffee on the table. Now you are drinking coffee and try to confince everyone else to drink tee. No, not only convince them, you try to ban coffee.

No one is debating whether or not that was my opinion.

I would just play 1st person if I had that opinion and oppurtunity.

Why is this a problem?

It's like favouring tee over coffe. Then you have tee and coffee on the table. Now you are drinking coffee and try to confince everyone else to drink tee. No, not only convince them, you try to ban coffee.

I know not your point. I didn't even say that I disliked 3rd person, nor am I doing any of the actions you suggested in the above quote.

Edited August 30, 2013 by Inception.

[Ken Bean 175]

I know not your point. I didn't even say that I disliked 3rd person, nor am I doing any of the actions you suggested in the above quote.

 

 

I said "it's like", taking this as an example. And I didn't mean you personel. I tried to describe the situation of the discussion currently which in my opinion fits exactly the coffee / tee problematic. "And coffee is bad they say... Tee way more healthy... " (while drinking coffee)

 

Would be easier if some may practise a bit more what they preach.

Edited August 30, 2013 by Ken Bean

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

As I said before blue names use jokes as a tool to calm things down , the above is not such a case , its belittleing people on these forums and not what I would expect from a Blue name who takes their position seriously .

cheers

I'm genuinely sorry if I offended you.  It was meant in good humour to lighten the mood and is purely intended as a parody, it's not to be taken seriously at all, hence delivering it in the form of a cartoon.

 

Please rest assured that I take my position seriously.  In fact in this thread I've offered nothing but my honest thoughts (at length) and tried to back up those thoughts with well thought out arguments, I've also tried to provoke discussion and steer it in a more constructive direction a few times when it's become a tad aggressive.

 

Here's the abridged version of my thoughts on the matter all of which are in this thread, I would argue that you have chosen to skip over my points to pick up on individual sentences and repeat your "choice" mantra.  In that situation it's impossible to debate with you.

I just want to hear some nice ideas for maybe restricting the 3rd person cam a bit. Is that too much to ask?

I highly doubt Dean will completely remove the 3rd person cam but he has said they'll look at ways of changing how it works so that it can't be used to look around corners and and over walls etc.

With that in mind here is our/your chance to speak directly to the devs and let them know how you think that could be done, don't waste it by banging on about the same old shite for page after page. It's an issue that needs to be addressed, here's where you get to say how you think that could be achieved.

There are many things currently in the mod that are a direct side effect of it being a mod of Arma 2 (map markers, name plates, legs breaking in a gust of wind etc.) These weren't design choices for the mod, they are there by default. The SA isn't a mod so these issues need to be discussed as there is now an opportunity for the devs to build the game as they see fit.

Hint - Saying it doesn't need fixing is not a solution the devs are looking for.

I think I'll try to explain one last time why I think that the 3rd person cam as it is now is detrimental to gameplay.

For me it's not about realism, authenticity, being hardcore or an old-school DayZ hipster or any of the other things that get levelled at you when you dare to suggest changing something that has become the norm. It really is purely about gameplay and I think the 3rd person cam currently does need "fixing".

Here's one gameplay example where for me the 3rd person cam massively detracts from what could be potentially awesome gameplay scenario.

So you're in the new Cherno/Electro, scouring the streets for loot, moving from cover to cover and being a very careful and tactful player. Now let's remember that in the new Chrernarus almost every building is enterable and in the cities most of those buildings now have multiple floors with windows overlooking the streets. These vantage points (and there's now a lot of them) simply don't exist in the mod so currently you only really have a few rooftops to worry about.

Now a careful player will be keeping his eyes on the windows and rooftops looking for movement, potential snipers or just any general threat. You may even be part of a team, in which case it'd be wise to get one of your team mates constantly looking at the windows overlooking your position while you go about your business.

But there's a problem here. The 3rd person cam allows anyone inside those new interiors to look out of the windows and scan the surroundings without having to physically look out, they can just manipulate the cam to the right angle and stay completely hidden.

But hey, it's ok right? I have 3rd person cam too so it's fair right? Well not really no. I can't use my 3rd person cam to scan the inside of all of the buildings and vantage points around me so I'm now confronted by a street with many windows and rooftops, all of which could potentially have a player in them looking straight at me, the problem is there's no way of me knowing. It's now irrelevant how good my tactics are or how careful I am, I only have two choices: Avoid that street altogether or take a massive gamble and head down the street with no way of knowing if I'm being watched and potentially sniped.

Common sense dictates to me that I now have to avoid every major street with windows overlooking it because I simply have no way of detecting any potential threats there, it's just a massive gamble (more than it should be) everytime I enter one of those streets.

This is just one of countless scenarios I can think of in which the 3rd person cam (as it currently is) massively detracts from the potential gameplay in a certain situation.

I'm not arguing to have it removed, I'm saying in certain scenarios it need restricting so as to avoid situations like the one above.

No lol.

To stick with my fat kid analogy (your fault)... I just wouldn't fill my cupboards with crisps, pies and sweets. As a responsible parent I would make sure the choices that are available to him are sensible ones that aren't going to turn him into a bully-magnet at school.

Currently in my opinion, the mod has become that bloated kid who's parents don't know when to say no. Server admins have too much choice and the DayZ that many are currently playing is a bloated fatty with a high chance of becoming diabetic.

The SA offers the devs a chance to take back control of that experience and refine it. I'd like to see the 3rd person camera refined as part of that process or to labour the analogy a bit more to remove all the shit from the cupboards.

Remember that I'm not actually arguing for it (3rd person cam) to be removed, it's HIGHLY unlikely it will be, I would like to see it refined though because I feel that way it works currently is detrimental to gameplay.

Yeh agreed. Well the classic Arma2 indoor clunkiness already feels much better in the SA and that seems to be one major gripe with peeps that don't like 1st person view in DayZ.

I've been playing Arma 3 a lot recently and the vehicle mirrors really do give the awarness that was missing from Arma 2, not sure if it's something that can be introduced into the SA, I don't see why they wouldn't tbh.

Leaning out of windows would be cool too, for a well executed example of a game that does it well check out Euro Truck Simulator 2013.

Personally I'm not too fussed about the vehicle side of things though. I do prefer sticking to 1st person cam but my one and only gripe with the 3rd person cam is the way it can be used as an exploit which effects gameplay negatively, even if it's fair because we can all do it.

For anyone that missed it here's Deans recent thought's on the 1st vs 3rd debate:

Q: What about first/third person?

We're still toying with what to do with first person/third person, we have a few plans around that. Whether we do context sensitive and force players to not use third person in certain situations for example maybe when you go prone on the ground the camera moves in really close or forces you into first person. However, sometimes you are running around and you want to be in third person because it's just a good way to see your character and what's going on.

Q: I really dig the idea that if you prone, the camera goes into first person. It's logical and stops something that's been a bane to the ARMA series, also crouching could zoom in / go over shoulder a bit.

It's going to be hard to get it right, but I really want us to try. I find I am using third person alot in DayZ SA while running long distances, or to "check" my character (like to see where I am shot to check direction of firer), but then third person is so exploitable in prone. So we are going to try both forcing first for prone, and the "sucking camera in close" and see which works best.

Agree too, crouching would really benefit from a more "over the shoulder", we'll try that and put some previs up for people to comment on.

Q: Third person can still be used to look behind corners and over walls while standing..

I'm comfortable that enough rational has been established for the absolute and complete removal of third person from the standalone. I also believe that third person allowed servers, by virtue of demand, are more popular in the mod than first person ones. I think that it has been demonstrated that there is a "problem" with the allowance of third person, and the proposed solution is the best I can come up with. It's not perfect, but if we just allow servers to turn it on/off then I think demand will dictate that people gravitate to 'third person allowed" servers - despite them acknowledging the exploits.

This is a long winded way of saying, so what do you suggest given the evidence at hand?

Q: What about yanking people out of third person when they get close to objects like trees, bushes, rocks, cars, trash piles, walls, buildings, etc

From a technical standpoint, this is very nasty because its going to either involve constantly polling for nearby objects and possibly raycasting also. It will have to be done serverside, adding to the poor servers increasing load. It will also result in a massive array of false positives and false negatives - as many map objects have no "object" status and are thus... not real objects to the game. I'm taking a wait-and-see approach at the minimum, at the maximum I'm proposing we put some context related limitations to 3rd person. Stance is easy to poll, and can actually be controlled in animation.

Q: Why compromise and allow the exploit, why not remove third person all together?

Because I can see (and employ myself) many legitimate uses of 3rd person. The servers are also far more popular than 1st person ones. What I'm doing is acknowledging the problem, acknowledging that server-demand will drive in favor of third-person allowed servers, and proposing a compromise that perhaps eliminates the worst of the offending, at the very least taking the edges off it. In short, because removal of a feature should not be taken lightly, and I'm just not convinced we should remove 3rd person at the game level.

Q: I'm curious about what you think third person adds to the game.

I find it gives me a sense of my character, especially when running long distances. As stonedlemming noted: it gives you an excellent idea where you are bleeding from. This is particularly relevant with standalone where the particle source is bound directly onto the mesh in the exact position you were hit. During an interview I used this to realize where someone shot me from, and I then killed them. Overall, perhaps it's just my intuition that I just don't feel convinced yet that deleting the feature at the game level is the best solution. Players choose third person servers, and I don't think they are all choosing that so they can cheat. I found I hardly ever used third person in the mod but I am using it very regularly to check my character for many things in the SA, especially because of the range of different clothing.

Q: I feel like all of that can be accomplished in first person using freelook, especially hit location...

Tried the free look thing. It doesn't work. You can't see most of your body. You can't see your back, butt, in fact your whole back of body and the sides. Even when i used TrackIR not only could I not see most, but it was unnecessarily irritating. My friend was shot in the ass, he knew he was shot in the ass, and he knew exactly where he was shot. I'm not pulling all this from thin air, I felt like I really tried to consider all sides of this. And I'm just not convinced that removing it at the game level is the way to go. I think that the compromise will solve the worst of the offending.

Tldr; He likes the 3rd person cam and can see it has a place in the game but he's also very aware of how it can effect gameplay in a negative way so is looking at ways of dealing with that issue.

Yeh you do mention that a bit.

The thing is IMO you're only partially right. If true choice was indeed the way forward there'd be no point in them even attempting to make a game, they'd just say:

"well there's a computer, it has infinite possibilities so knock yourself out!"

Making a game is about good design and good design is as much about choosing what to omit from that design as it about what to include, more so in fact. We rely in them as game designers to create a world/experience we want to be a part of, that's thier job and an important part of that job is actually limiting our choices in certain ways. Games that try to please everyone all of the time usually fail because it's only by trying to focus the actual experience that you can make something truly worth playing.

If I go to a Chinese restaurant and see burgers and pizza on the menu then I'd leave. Why would I do that if choice is always a good thing? Well because I went there for Chinese food and I'm relying on the restaurant owners knowledge and experience to offer me a good menu. I want a menu with with choice but I'm also relying on the owners knowledge to refine my choice which will result in a better experience for me.

In fact an overly large menu is usually the sign of a bad restaurant because it displays lack of focus and/or confidence in what they're serving.

I think RedNome made a good point, we've been going around in circles for ages now and it's pretty clear who thinks what and that their views are unlikely to change in the near future.

The facts are this: The devs do feel that there is currently an issue with the way the 3rd person cam works but they (Dean specifically) likes playing using the 3rd person cam a lot. This isn't a new issue btw it's been discussed for years over on the BIS forums but it's more relevant to us right now because it may actually now be addressed during the SA development.

They will be looking at ways to refine/adjust the way the third person cam currently works. At this point it's kind of irrelevant now if we're happy about that or not because that's the course of action they've already decided on.

So with that in mind it would be more constructive for us to offer ways they could go about it.

Dean's unlikely to read through 40 pages of circular arguments but if we can form a decent list of suggestions and discuss the pro's and cons then I'm happy to compile that into something a bit more digestible than this thread and make sure he get's to read it.

Now I could carry on debating here because it's something I genuinely feel strongly about but atm I'm failing to see the point when some are choosing to completely ignore/counter the points I raise, it'll just result in me repeating myself over and over again and that's pretty pointless.

Much love.

[Inception. 9443]

I said "it's like", taking this as an example. And I didn't mean you personel. I tried to describe the situation of the discussion currently which in my opinion fits exactly the coffee / tee problematic. "And coffee is bad they say... Tee way more healthy... " (while drinking coffee)

 

Would be easier if some may practise a bit more what they preach.

 

Oh, I apologise. It appeared that you were referring to myself as opposed to the entire discussion. 

Edited August 30, 2013 by Inception.

[SMLE 39]

This topic... :facepalm:

 

What have you created, DemonGroover?!

 

First person > third person.

This is my opinion.

And nobody is saying it is a bad opinion its just not the only opinion .

cheers

[Inception. 9443]

And nobody is saying it is a bad opinion its just not the only opinion .

cheers

 

No one stated that somebody said it was a bad opinion, nor was I implying that, nor did anyone state that it was the only opinion.

[dallas 5195]

So will there be different hives for different settings or will they all connect to the same?

 

 

In my wildest dreams, I can't imagine there being two different hives and why would there be?

 

What's this worst case scenario you're fearing, that a third person player is going to easy mode farm a full populated third person server and not get killed all the time by the 40 other players stalking the military spawns and then jump to your first person server, be forced to play in first person like you and then totally own you in first person, because while you're accustomed to playing in first person, because you're not a pussy/n00b/carebear, he has the better gun?

 

Shouldn't we then also have a separate server, because while farming the hell out of easy mode third person servers, isn't it also kind of easy mode to get all your gear on an empty elite/veteran/badass server?

 

People get killed at much on third person server, simply because they are more populated and there are more enemies around. They lose their gear as much as you and they start all over as much as you too. People don't server hop from third person to first person. If you're a third person player, you probably filter first person servers away from your server browser, like the majority of all the first person players apparently also chooses to play on third person servers.

[SMLE 39]

If we blue names wanted to calm things down we would say something serious. What Fraggle posted was humour. Something that we laugh at. If you have come here expecting the Moderators [please, use that instead of blue names lol] to act serious 100% of the time, and will not like it when we are not, then I am afraid you are going to have a bad day.

I'm here to have fun and adventure. Not only that, of course. I slap people here and there.

What are you here for?

 

If you prefer to be called Mods ok I ment no disrespect .

I see no call to come in heavy handed , I am fully aware you can give me a bad day if you want but I have not been warned and this thread is quiet and respectable even if it is going around and around in circles .

Im here to try and get a point across and get a fair hearing for the playstyle many of us enjoy though I can only speak for myself .

Sorry slapping is not my thing but whatever floats your boat .

cheers

[SMLE 39]

I'm genuinely sorry if I offended you.  It was meant in good humour to lighten the mood and is purely intended as a parody, it's not to be taken seriously at all, hence delivering it in the form of a cartoon.

 

Please rest assured that I take my position seriously.  In fact in this thread I've offered nothing but my honest thoughts (at length) and tried to back up those thoughts with well thought out arguments, I've also tried to provoke discussion and steer it in a more constructive direction a few times when it's become a tad aggressive.

 

Here's the abridged version of my thoughts on the matter all of which are in this thread, I would argue that you have chosen to skip over my points to pick up on individual sentences and repeat your "choice" mantra.  In that situation it's impossible to debate with you.

I just want to hear some nice ideas for maybe restricting the 3rd person cam a bit. Is that too much to ask?

I highly doubt Dean will completely remove the 3rd person cam but he has said they'll look at ways of changing how it works so that it can't be used to look around corners and and over walls etc.

With that in mind here is our/your chance to speak directly to the devs and let them know how you think that could be done, don't waste it by banging on about the same old shite for page after page. It's an issue that needs to be addressed, here's where you get to say how you think that could be achieved.

There are many things currently in the mod that are a direct side effect of it being a mod of Arma 2 (map markers, name plates, legs breaking in a gust of wind etc.) These weren't design choices for the mod, they are there by default. The SA isn't a mod so these issues need to be discussed as there is now an opportunity for the devs to build the game as they see fit.

Hint - Saying it doesn't need fixing is not a solution the devs are looking for.

I think I'll try to explain one last time why I think that the 3rd person cam as it is now is detrimental to gameplay.

For me it's not about realism, authenticity, being hardcore or an old-school DayZ hipster or any of the other things that get levelled at you when you dare to suggest changing something that has become the norm. It really is purely about gameplay and I think the 3rd person cam currently does need "fixing".

Here's one gameplay example where for me the 3rd person cam massively detracts from what could be potentially awesome gameplay scenario.

So you're in the new Cherno/Electro, scouring the streets for loot, moving from cover to cover and being a very careful and tactful player. Now let's remember that in the new Chrernarus almost every building is enterable and in the cities most of those buildings now have multiple floors with windows overlooking the streets. These vantage points (and there's now a lot of them) simply don't exist in the mod so currently you only really have a few rooftops to worry about.

Now a careful player will be keeping his eyes on the windows and rooftops looking for movement, potential snipers or just any general threat. You may even be part of a team, in which case it'd be wise to get one of your team mates constantly looking at the windows overlooking your position while you go about your business.

But there's a problem here. The 3rd person cam allows anyone inside those new interiors to look out of the windows and scan the surroundings without having to physically look out, they can just manipulate the cam to the right angle and stay completely hidden.

But hey, it's ok right? I have 3rd person cam too so it's fair right? Well not really no. I can't use my 3rd person cam to scan the inside of all of the buildings and vantage points around me so I'm now confronted by a street with many windows and rooftops, all of which could potentially have a player in them looking straight at me, the problem is there's no way of me knowing. It's now irrelevant how good my tactics are or how careful I am, I only have two choices: Avoid that street altogether or take a massive gamble and head down the street with no way of knowing if I'm being watched and potentially sniped.

Common sense dictates to me that I now have to avoid every major street with windows overlooking it because I simply have no way of detecting any potential threats there, it's just a massive gamble (more than it should be) everytime I enter one of those streets.

This is just one of countless scenarios I can think of in which the 3rd person cam (as it currently is) massively detracts from the potential gameplay in a certain situation.

I'm not arguing to have it removed, I'm saying in certain scenarios it need restricting so as to avoid situations like the one above.

No lol.

To stick with my fat kid analogy (your fault)... I just wouldn't fill my cupboards with crisps, pies and sweets. As a responsible parent I would make sure the choices that are available to him are sensible ones that aren't going to turn him into a bully-magnet at school.

Currently in my opinion, the mod has become that bloated kid who's parents don't know when to say no. Server admins have too much choice and the DayZ that many are currently playing is a bloated fatty with a high chance of becoming diabetic.

The SA offers the devs a chance to take back control of that experience and refine it. I'd like to see the 3rd person camera refined as part of that process or to labour the analogy a bit more to remove all the shit from the cupboards.

Remember that I'm not actually arguing for it (3rd person cam) to be removed, it's HIGHLY unlikely it will be, I would like to see it refined though because I feel that way it works currently is detrimental to gameplay.

Yeh agreed. Well the classic Arma2 indoor clunkiness already feels much better in the SA and that seems to be one major gripe with peeps that don't like 1st person view in DayZ.

I've been playing Arma 3 a lot recently and the vehicle mirrors really do give the awarness that was missing from Arma 2, not sure if it's something that can be introduced into the SA, I don't see why they wouldn't tbh.

Leaning out of windows would be cool too, for a well executed example of a game that does it well check out Euro Truck Simulator 2013.

Personally I'm not too fussed about the vehicle side of things though. I do prefer sticking to 1st person cam but my one and only gripe with the 3rd person cam is the way it can be used as an exploit which effects gameplay negatively, even if it's fair because we can all do it.

For anyone that missed it here's Deans recent thought's on the 1st vs 3rd debate:

Q: What about first/third person?

We're still toying with what to do with first person/third person, we have a few plans around that. Whether we do context sensitive and force players to not use third person in certain situations for example maybe when you go prone on the ground the camera moves in really close or forces you into first person. However, sometimes you are running around and you want to be in third person because it's just a good way to see your character and what's going on.

Q: I really dig the idea that if you prone, the camera goes into first person. It's logical and stops something that's been a bane to the ARMA series, also crouching could zoom in / go over shoulder a bit.

It's going to be hard to get it right, but I really want us to try. I find I am using third person alot in DayZ SA while running long distances, or to "check" my character (like to see where I am shot to check direction of firer), but then third person is so exploitable in prone. So we are going to try both forcing first for prone, and the "sucking camera in close" and see which works best.

Agree too, crouching would really benefit from a more "over the shoulder", we'll try that and put some previs up for people to comment on.

Q: Third person can still be used to look behind corners and over walls while standing..

I'm comfortable that enough rational has been established for the absolute and complete removal of third person from the standalone. I also believe that third person allowed servers, by virtue of demand, are more popular in the mod than first person ones. I think that it has been demonstrated that there is a "problem" with the allowance of third person, and the proposed solution is the best I can come up with. It's not perfect, but if we just allow servers to turn it on/off then I think demand will dictate that people gravitate to 'third person allowed" servers - despite them acknowledging the exploits.

This is a long winded way of saying, so what do you suggest given the evidence at hand?

Q: What about yanking people out of third person when they get close to objects like trees, bushes, rocks, cars, trash piles, walls, buildings, etc

From a technical standpoint, this is very nasty because its going to either involve constantly polling for nearby objects and possibly raycasting also. It will have to be done serverside, adding to the poor servers increasing load. It will also result in a massive array of false positives and false negatives - as many map objects have no "object" status and are thus... not real objects to the game. I'm taking a wait-and-see approach at the minimum, at the maximum I'm proposing we put some context related limitations to 3rd person. Stance is easy to poll, and can actually be controlled in animation.

Q: Why compromise and allow the exploit, why not remove third person all together?

Because I can see (and employ myself) many legitimate uses of 3rd person. The servers are also far more popular than 1st person ones. What I'm doing is acknowledging the problem, acknowledging that server-demand will drive in favor of third-person allowed servers, and proposing a compromise that perhaps eliminates the worst of the offending, at the very least taking the edges off it. In short, because removal of a feature should not be taken lightly, and I'm just not convinced we should remove 3rd person at the game level.

Q: I'm curious about what you think third person adds to the game.

I find it gives me a sense of my character, especially when running long distances. As stonedlemming noted: it gives you an excellent idea where you are bleeding from. This is particularly relevant with standalone where the particle source is bound directly onto the mesh in the exact position you were hit. During an interview I used this to realize where someone shot me from, and I then killed them. Overall, perhaps it's just my intuition that I just don't feel convinced yet that deleting the feature at the game level is the best solution. Players choose third person servers, and I don't think they are all choosing that so they can cheat. I found I hardly ever used third person in the mod but I am using it very regularly to check my character for many things in the SA, especially because of the range of different clothing.

Q: I feel like all of that can be accomplished in first person using freelook, especially hit location...

Tried the free look thing. It doesn't work. You can't see most of your body. You can't see your back, butt, in fact your whole back of body and the sides. Even when i used TrackIR not only could I not see most, but it was unnecessarily irritating. My friend was shot in the ass, he knew he was shot in the ass, and he knew exactly where he was shot. I'm not pulling all this from thin air, I felt like I really tried to consider all sides of this. And I'm just not convinced that removing it at the game level is the way to go. I think that the compromise will solve the worst of the offending.

Tldr; He likes the 3rd person cam and can see it has a place in the game but he's also very aware of how it can effect gameplay in a negative way so is looking at ways of dealing with that issue.

Yeh you do mention that a bit.

The thing is IMO you're only partially right. If true choice was indeed the way forward there'd be no point in them even attempting to make a game, they'd just say:

"well there's a computer, it has infinite possibilities so knock yourself out!"

Making a game is about good design and good design is as much about choosing what to omit from that design as it about what to include, more so in fact. We rely in them as game designers to create a world/experience we want to be a part of, that's thier job and an important part of that job is actually limiting our choices in certain ways. Games that try to please everyone all of the time usually fail because it's only by trying to focus the actual experience that you can make something truly worth playing.

If I go to a Chinese restaurant and see burgers and pizza on the menu then I'd leave. Why would I do that if choice is always a good thing? Well because I went there for Chinese food and I'm relying on the restaurant owners knowledge and experience to offer me a good menu. I want a menu with with choice but I'm also relying on the owners knowledge to refine my choice which will result in a better experience for me.

In fact an overly large menu is usually the sign of a bad restaurant because it displays lack of focus and/or confidence in what they're serving.

I think RedNome made a good point, we've been going around in circles for ages now and it's pretty clear who thinks what and that their views are unlikely to change in the near future.

The facts are this: The devs do feel that there is currently an issue with the way the 3rd person cam works but they (Dean specifically) likes playing using the 3rd person cam a lot. This isn't a new issue btw it's been discussed for years over on the BIS forums but it's more relevant to us right now because it may actually now be addressed during the SA development.

They will be looking at ways to refine/adjust the way the third person cam currently works. At this point it's kind of irrelevant now if we're happy about that or not because that's the course of action they've already decided on.

So with that in mind it would be more constructive for us to offer ways they could go about it.

Dean's unlikely to read through 40 pages of circular arguments but if we can form a decent list of suggestions and discuss the pro's and cons then I'm happy to compile that into something a bit more digestible than this thread and make sure he get's to read it.

Now I could carry on debating here because it's something I genuinely feel strongly about but atm I'm failing to see the point when some are choosing to completely ignore/counter the points I raise, it'll just result in me repeating myself over and over again and that's pretty pointless.

Much love.

Mate no offence taken Im a big boy it just came across as not appropriate but we are just talking about a game its not earth shatteringly important so don't worry about it .

cheers

[Ken Bean 175]

No one stated that somebody said it was a bad opinion, nor was I implying that, nor did anyone state that it was the only opinion.

I see and it would be nice but maybe I misread some posts which were made or there's a constant 3rd person player bashing going on. It's no namecalling I'd point out, just the stile.

Here there's an example to illustrate what I mean

 

is simple way to explain why third person is make game shit for first person player

look this settings for difficult to easy

hardcore guys

first person only

no crosshair

no waypoint B)

normal guys

first person only

crosshair

waypoint ;)

easy guys

first and third person

crosshair

waypoint :rolleyes:

pussy guys

first and third person

crosshair

waypoint

nametags

player show on map :D

if you are 3rd person guy but you are not pussy guy how you feel if some guys say we make 'pussy guy' setting for all guys? :huh:

we don't make debate for nametag because 99% guys know is bullshit for pussy guys,

you accept argue for nametags 'is fun'??? or 'is for all guys so is fair this shit'???

3rd person is same for first person guys, is like some pussy shit :huh: we don't want this to affect our game please :thumbsup:

I'm not offended, I don't take things like this personel, it wasnt pointet at anyone directly and I completely ignore what it may imply or not. It's just a discussion stile like with a 3 years old. How can you discuss with this?

Edited August 30, 2013 by Ken Bean

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

Mate no offence taken Im a big boy it just came across as not appropriate but we are just talking about a game its not earth shatteringly important so don't worry about it .

cheers

Ur too kind =)

[Inception. 9443]

If you prefer to be called Mods ok I ment no disrespect .

I see no call to come in heavy handed , I am fully aware you can give me a bad day if you want but I have not been warned and this thread is quiet and respectable even if it is going around and around in circles .

Im here to try and get a point across and get a fair hearing for the playstyle many of us enjoy though I can only speak for myself .

Sorry slapping is not my thing but whatever floats your boat .

cheers

 

No no, I am not saying that I will personally go out of my way to give you a bad day, but I am saying that, if the idea of us not being serious 100% of the time will effect you in a negative way, then you will probably have a bad day depending upon the degree of the effect. And I took no disrespect to you calling us/me blue names; it's rather original from what I have seen, haha.

 

I think we should probably get back on topic, apologies for derailing. 

Edited August 30, 2013 by Inception.
Disrespect, not respect, silly me

[tommes 331]

A method to get players to adapt to a higher difficulty setting would be to have like 3 settings: noob, regular, hardcore

Hardcore means FPV only, almost no HUD and everything minimal but you would find the best loot only on those servers. So for example on a regular server the best weapon to find might be an AK or M4 variant, on noob maybe shotguns and an Enfield or Winnie. Other loot classes similar.

So there would be an incentive to go into hardcore land maybe a good feeling afterwards of having survived there.