First vs Third Person Discussion (Dslyecxi video)

[dsi24 227]

Wut?  I'm not going to gimp anything,  it's not down to me at all.  I'm just using this opportunity to put forward my views.  The devs are interested to know how peeps feel about the cameras and how they're used, hence this thread.  You should be happy we have devs that actually read the forums and take peoples views into account when making important decisions.

 

You can either get defensive and pissed off or offer some solid reasoning behind your own viewpoint.  The latter will probably be taken more seriously when they read this thread.

 

Anyhoo, I'm off for the night, this is bloody draining.

Fraggle you remind me of quite a few people back during Planetside when people started to point out how fucked up third person is. Some people, not proponents of third person but just nice people who could see the other side, would try to find some middle ground to please the people that don't have any ground to stand on in the first place. Compromise isn't an all purpose solution, and third person is a great example of it.

Regardless of weighing cost vs benefit of the effort required to balance third person, you have to think of how to do it. Locking it to horizontal motion is a start, that removes the exploit at elevation, but it doesn't change anything if you're on the same plane (or if you can get your character angled correctly, a corner case but still a case). But it doesn't do anything about the most common exploitation of third person: standing next to a doorway instead of peeking inside it. What solutions do you have for that that wouldn't just make people stop using third person altogether? (meaning you might as well have taken the easier route and removed it)

No third person in cities? Well you can still hide behind bushes and trees and rocks in the wilderness...

No third person near any objects where this would be possible? This doesn't stop people from laying in deep grass where they can't see or be seen... except when they exploit third person at least.

No third person near any object or while standing in grass above a very tall height, crouched in grass above a medium height, or prone in grass above a low height? Well that's the end of exploiting third person... but it's also the end of the use of third person as well. You'd have to be yanked out of it any time you changed stances in certain grass, yanked out of it every time you entered a city, yanked out of it every time you passed a tree, rock, trash pile, bush, car, box, etc...

Or maybe you think about it from the other side, some kind of indicator that someone is using third person. It's a floating magical camera so why not have a floating magical orb (for simplicity's sake) take its place? This just makes people an easier target of course, a big giant "I'm here" flag for anyone with eyes... so why would anyone use it?

For both of those end solutions, there's an answer of course: "To look at my character". But we have the gear menu for that!

@ZooBeastman: Third person was never intended to be used to see through walls, using game mechanics to do something not intended (especially for an advantage) is the very definition of an exploit. Another example of an exploit would be using a Source game's physics mechanics (jumping, collision, etc) to exit a Counter-Strike map and shoot people from underneath it. A certain camp of people would say that's just using what's in the game, but do you really think Counter-Strike's devs intended for players to exit the map?

[ZooBeastman 12]

You honestly believe the third person camera was not designed to be able to see from a perspective other than the characters? Why do you think it was made?

 

You'd compare a fully implemented camera function to a physics abuse that under very odd circumstances (difficult to create accidentally)  allowed you to fundamentally cheat?

 

The mind boggles.

 

I must remember to open my gear menu to watch my character interact with the world... what?

Edited August 23, 2013 by ZooBeastman

[ZooBeastman 12]

There is a difference between exploiting a bug; and utilising a feature.

[-Gews- 7443]

I think people have just become so used to third person they don't really want to change...

 

I don't hear people complaining about the lack of third-person in Battlefield or Call of Duty or what-have-you. :huh:

[ZooBeastman 12]

I suspect people who play Battlefield or Call of Duty would be people who like first person perspectives.

Edited August 24, 2013 by ZooBeastman

[BigChef 55]

Probably could have found a better analogue.

Perhaps, but it was good for a chortle.

[HIHBGaming 14]

3rd person adds many advantages than 1st person and they're all pointed out in Dslyecxi's vid. Whether you want to believe it or not, seeing around corners and whatnot should not be part of 3rd person if they can do it.

I'm not against 3rd person view but it needs a complete overhaul and if they can't fix the way it is in the Mod for the SA then it needs to be removed.

The reasoning that some give that they want to see their character and how they look, well you can see that in the gear UI in the SA. People have gotten to used to the 3rd person view; and as creatures of habit; change doesn't go over too well with most.

Regardless, the advantages of 3rd person need to be rectified. In saying that, first person needs some fixing too... Riding in some vehicles; the ATV for example; makes the view jump around so much that it can make you sick and is not very pleasant.

[ZooBeastman 12]

 but it needs a complete overhaul 

 

Needs is a very strong word, the game would be 'fine' if it was released with the camera as is. Perhaps it could be better, but needs?

[dsi24 227]

You honestly believe the third person camera was not designed to be able to see from a perspective other than the characters? Why do you think it was made?

 

You'd compare a fully implemented camera function to a physics abuse that under very odd circumstances (difficult to create accidentally)  allowed you to fundamentally cheat?

 

The mind boggles.

 

I must remember to open my gear menu to watch my character interact with the world... what?

Maybe I put too much trust in BIS, but I can't see how any rational person or group of people would intend to add something for the 'merits' of the ability to cheat with it. And that's what it is really, everyone beats around the bush but everyone knows it, what else is this but cheating? "Knowing the precise location, facing, and actions of another person without them having any recourse." You would agree that that describes what is possible with third person, right? You would also agree that that exact same sentence describes with the same precision wallhacks, right?

It's obvious why third person was ever in ArmA in the first place: to give you a sense of awareness. Of course, now this can be achieved with freelook, so third person is a legacy feature. A very exploitable legacy feature.

 

 

There is a difference between exploiting a bug; and utilising a feature.

Ah, a bug! Third person is very bugged, isn't it? How would you fix third person's very exploitable bugs? Those issues in Valve's map and physics designs are the exact same kind of issues in BIS' third person design, a lack of forethought or maybe putting too much trust in the players.

I have to say that I'm not against third person, just against its exploitable features. It just so happens that all (worthwhile) implementations of third person are exploitable. There isn't much choice but to get rid of it, and honestly I think its silly that people are putting vanity above gameplay in a desperate attempt to hold onto third person.

[Siberian (DayZ) 527]

Exploit - to make use of meanly or unfairly for one's own advantage

There are spaces in Chernarus that you can't approach and be able to see if someone is in them from 3rd person but they can have full view of you because of use of 3rd person. They can "exploit" that flaw in the 3rd person camera. Covering fire largely becomes useless when you can remain fully in cover and still see the person firing. 3rd person also does away with the "lean" mechanics that exist in DayZ, why have them when they don't do anything in 3rd person? I look at the movement mechanics and the aiming mechanics and I can see that ARMA was designed to be played in 1st person perspective. Seriously, that is what the lean mechanic is ALL about. If the intent was to be played that way then playing it in another way is considered an "exploit". Another definition is "gaining an advantage by using a system in a way it was not intended to be used". I don't think they put a lean mechanic into ARMA if the intent was to look around corners in 3rd person all the time. 

news flash, ur sarcasm meter is clearly broken..

[HIHBGaming 14]

Needs is a very strong word, the game would be 'fine' if it was released with the camera as is. Perhaps it could be better, but needs?

 

Maybe "complete overhaul" were the wrong choice of words but it definitely "needs" change.

[DemonGroover 8836]

I wouldn't have a problem with 3rd person if the camera were set and fixed at eye level and free look was disabled while in this 3rd person perspective.

[Siberian (DayZ) 527]

 

I'll make a last example for you to understand:

 

I am homosexual, you are hetero. Who cares. You are happy and so am I.

I am heterosexual you are homo. Who cares. We are both happy.

I am homosexual. You are a pedophile: I DO care. Everbody does. You can't be a pedophile, it is immoral, it is wrong, it is bad.

 

You are mixing having a sexual preference with being a pedophile.

 

_Anubis_

best topic change in the history of the internet..

 

/golfclap.

 

haahh

[SalamanderAnder (DayZ) 1747]

I suspect people who play Battlefield or Call of Duty would be people who like first person perspectives.

 

The question isn't really "who likes what" here. The question is why do those games choose to force first-person perspective?

 

Because it's more fair in firefights. I myself have used third person to simply annihilate enemies in DayZ. It's just... wrong. Having constant knowledge of your opponent is an exploit. Just because anyone can exploit it doesn't mean it isn't an exploit.

 

One time I had an extremely interesting firefight at the long barn just outside Cherno, where both I and the other player were abusing 3rd person. We played cat-and-mouse for almost 15 minutes - running, weaving, trying to surprise each other. Eventually I trapped him in the barn where his third person would not help him, and I killed him. While it was exhilarating, it was also kind of pathetic. I had been forced to adapt a play style that incorporated the same exploitation as everyone else, and I was just the better exploiter. That's all. It fundamentally reduces the value of the game play when a mechanic is so overpowering.

 

I would suggest simply creating a new third person perspective that is less exploitable. A camera that is slightly closer to the player and over the shoulder, with the same FoV as first person, which can maybe even approach the player as they look down, would seriously help. This way you couldn't just watch a player over a wall with complete visibility. It's just absurd.

[geogeorgegeo@hotmail.co.uk 50]

No. advantage or disadvantage in this case is due to poor tactical choiches, don't blame the game for that. You know 3dp is on, so you know you must move as close as possible to a wall otherwise you can be seen by others for the reason you mentioned: you know well how 3dp works.

 

If I am approaching a corner of a building I have two ways to peek around:

 

3dp on: safest is going as close as possible to the corner and [ab]using the periscope effect

3dp off: safest is going as far away as possible from the corner and creep sideway to expose yourself as less as possible

 

_Anubis_

 

That makes no sense; you could be walking 'tactically' along a wall (because 3dp influences gameplay/tactics) but still be at a disadvantage from another wall that you are not near. There is still a tactical disadvantage, you said there is none. Are you seriously saying there are no situations where you are at a disadvantage due to 3dp even if you moved close to some wall, eh? Even if you have 3dp, there is no way to move any decent distance without being spotted by another person exploiting 3rd person,

 

3dp on: safest is going as close as possible to the corner and [ab]using the periscope effect

yes, it's safe to know what's around the corner when using 3rd person. That's nice, what about the person around the corner? (I get the feeling you will say they should be close, around the corner, using 3rd person - otherwise they are not being tactical).

[ZooBeastman 12]

Maybe I put too much trust in BIS, but I can't see how any rational person or group of people would intend to add something for the 'merits' of the ability to cheat with it. And that's what it is really, everyone beats around the bush but everyone knows it, what else is this but cheating? "Knowing the precise location, facing, and actions of another person without them having any recourse." You would agree that that describes what is possible with third person, right? You would also agree that that exact same sentence describes with the same precision wallhacks, right?

 

 

Again with the tired use of the word exploit when all your actually saying is using the cam = bad. No its no the same as wallhacks, no using a camera implemented by a game that offers unrealistic views of the world is not cheating, its the game. I have unrealstic views of the game world in many games, that is not cheating.

 

Hooking into the memory and overlaying graphics where players are is very different.

[Siberian (DayZ) 527]

.

 

Hooking into the memory and overlaying graphics where players are is very different.

 

not to some of these guys.../facepalm

[SoulHunter (DayZ) 233]

i understnd fully you are going to gimp third person. we are arguing about it when it will be done if its wanted. so just lock it off do what you want.

 

gimping the most popular playstyle to suit a minority. not smart.

 

 

i love how whenever someone doesnt agree with you its i dont understand. i fully understand stop being silly.

You wrote this post like it is literal or some proven facts. Yet it is only full of your personal opinions.

 

You cannot say:"I understand that you are going to gimp third person." You have literally no right to say that. First of all, no one can know the future. Secondly, it is what you think. So you should of said:"I think you will gimp third person." The other way you decided to use would have only one matter/reason to be told, to anger up someone.

 

You cannot say:"Gimping the most popular playstyle to suit a minority." It is fully your opinion that being the most pupular play-style and that the people who do not like it represent the minority. It is your opinion.

 

You cannot say:"Not smart." In literal, no one can know what is smart or not if the person is not a creature knowing literally everything in the reality as well as having an unlimited intelligence, in another word, God. And I'd assume that you are not God. Punish me if you are plox.

 

You cannot say:"Stop being silly." as it is your opinion that the guy you point that out being silly. There is a possibility of there being able to be a misunderstanding or YOU failing to understand/missing something along with the rest of the unlimited possibilities. Afaik God did not appear and call him "silly". Therefore you have no right to call him silly as an ordinary human-being just like him.

 

^All stated up there is purely MO.

 

 

 

Regards

 

[Feral (DayZ) 622]

the elephant in the room is every right thinking gamer knows 3rd person is just plain wrong.

 

Youtubers love it and so do some, maybe most of their fans.

It seems rocket/devs want to keep it and for good reason, videos sell games.

 

all right thinking gamers, even those who love and use 3rd person must surely see this is a ridiculous feature that was inherited by the mod from a parent game concerned with humans v AI

it was an accident that we ever got this mod with 3rd person.

 

now is the time to correct that.

[ZooBeastman 12]

the elephant in the room is every right thinking gamer knows 3rd person is just plain wrong.

 

 

 

Its odd, I really get that people who like first person would rather it was first person. I find it strange that the reverse isn't equally prevalent. The day "3rd person is just plain wrong" is the day there aren't third person games enjoyed by millions of people.

[Feral (DayZ) 622]

Its odd, I really get that people who like first person would rather it was first person. I find it strange that the reverse isn't equally prevalent. The day "3rd person is just plain wrong" is the day there aren't third person games enjoyed by millions of people.

serious shooter with 3rd person? name one

 

and I know dayz is a zombie survival sim mmo thingymajig but who here will say that gunplay is without a doubt a key feature, maybe THE key aspect that makes the experience so special.

 

and 3rd person literally dumps on serious gunplay

 

edit -It seems some guys are posting here without watching the video.

 

if they did watch it and they still believe 3rd person is a good idea then they must be insane

Edited August 24, 2013 by (MUC) Feral

[ZooBeastman 12]

Serious makes no sense in the context you are using it. In honesty I don't play many shooters; its just not my thing but I imagine many shooters which I suspect would describe as 'not serious' many people would take seriously.

 

Besides there is still nothing preventing the use of first person servers to meet the requirements of those who don't wish to play with third person players.

[SoulHunter (DayZ) 233]

Its odd, I really get that people who like first person would rather it was first person. I find it strange that the reverse isn't equally prevalent. The day "3rd person is just plain wrong" is the day there aren't third person games enjoyed by millions of people.

The only reason of 3rd person being used is to cheat to see behind walls/corners/whatnot. It is a game-breaker regarding the PvP aspect of almost any game.

[Feral (DayZ) 622]

it renders stealth and cunning obsolete

 

as dslyecxi  says, if I can see you you can see me, without that simple truth combat in dayz becomes a comedy

Edited August 24, 2013 by (MUC) Feral

[ZooBeastman 12]

The only reason of 3rd person being used is to cheat to see behind walls/corners/whatnot. It is a game-breaker regarding the PvP aspect of almost any game.

 

Game-breaking?