DayZ Mod 1.7.7 Patch

[Tony_Montana 15]

I encourage people interested to read my previous post on this thread regarding the number of changes that are NOT REALISTIC.

I'll sum up some basic things here, because this post is getting more "harder is realistic" posts. No. It's not. When difficulty is pumped in to the degree that it breaks the rules of the game world, then it is contrived and UNREALISTIC.

I should be able to lose agro when, running around houses, I get two to three turns ahead. Now they just use ESP to STILL find you despite sight being broken twice in a row.

Entering an empty house unseen, with minimal zombies wandering about, but then when I'm in the house, five zombies enter using both entrances.

Zombies spawning closely when you start a fire. Are they coming out of the ground now?

Tiny tiny starting area villages are simply, harder to loot than Cherno. It's so ridiculous now, I just laugh at the game and shake my head.

Lack of melee weapons even around farms and rural areas. With the amount of changes, don't minimalize essential starting gear.

Read my last post for more.

The new difficulty needs to make sense. Some here are STILL making comments like, "oh, you're impatient," "go play CoD," and "thank god cherno is a ghost town".

Really? You don't see what's wrong in this patch? So, unfair to the game and player changes are ok, as long as Cherno is a ghost town? Who sounds like the whiny ones? And it's because there's no loot in the cities anymore. That's why.

Giving zombies immersion breaking powers isn't the answer folks. We welcome more difficulty. This just isn't the way.

Amen......Super Zombies is NOT the answer. They track you through everything and when you try and fight, they get super speed and dart back behind you constantly. Zombies are supposed to be somewhat stupid, not members of MENSA. The infection thing is a little ridiculous now....infected 3 times in a 1/2 hour by SUPER MENSA ZEDS because you can't loose them or fight them off. Wrong execution of the right idea. tweak it a little.

[SpudmanWP 27]

At least we can return the favor and hit THEM through walls :)

[rod (DayZ) 20]

You..You actually just quoted the 'difficulty' I was referring to. Like, just now. Are you feeling okay?

You...You actually think Zeds are difficult ?

[Zetal 90]

You...You actually think Zeds are difficult ?

I'll run through this for you. You quote me mentioned a "difficulty", which I got by quoting someone who was saying the game was too difficult- a certain Cadian412. You then asked what difficulty I was talking about, and then quoted the exact post I was referring to. Clear, now?

[need matches 84]

You sound like a bloody politician. Could you try and drop the arrogant tone for just a couple minutes, jump off your pedestal, and talk to the rest of us like an actual human being? Yes, there are problems with the patch, and R4Z0R has already said that he's fixing the bugs and revamping the infection system, but the difficulty is here to stay. So stop acting like a 'white knight' and making this about some faux 'realism' you've concocted and play the game. Sorry if this comes off as rude but after reading nearly five of your posts I'm just sick to death of your attitude.

Again with the "difficulty". For the 70th time, I welcome more difficulty. Your comments above only serve to show how you feel about those of us who don't like the difficulty of playing solitaire with a deck of 46 cards.

Still throwing the word "difficulty" around like you are only shows you don't understand our posts for some reason. We want difficulty, But it has to be FAIR and MAKE SENSE. Giving zombies superpowers is contrived. How can you fail to see that?

And I did not bring up the "faux realism". Others professing unconditional love for the patch did. I have only pointed out how the patch IS NOT realistic. It is no longer a simulation as it was. I did this following statements like this: "Dayz is not for the casual gamer. It is a REALISTIC SIMULATION of a zombie apocalypse."

If I'm misunderstood or misquoted I will clarify my statements. You can call that "arrogance."

Edited June 17, 2013 by need matches

[rod (DayZ) 20]

I'll run through this for you. You quote me mentioned a "difficulty", which I got by quoting someone who was saying the game was too difficult- a certain Cadian412. You then asked what difficulty I was talking about, and then quoted the exact post I was referring to. Clear, now?

Ok i realize now you didn't get the sarcasm...But anyway and for the sake of debate what in your opinion makes Zeds difficult at the moment ?

[hogscraper 328]

Man there's so much crying about this patch. Get over it or go back to Farmville where you belong. Its a zombie apocalypse. You get hit, you get infected. There aren't any zombie universes in fiction where you get hit 200 times in an hour and somehow live. The devs have already been nice enough to give you the ability to survive a hit. Every time I read about a server owner rolling back to an easier patch I wonder why they're even bothering with Dayz to begin with. Seriously, why aren't they just running Arma2 and being done with if they don't want to be bothered with having to deal with zombies the way zombies should be dealt with? What kind of person would chose to go into the biggest city in their country, for any reason whatsoever, during a zombie apocalypse? Its a huge map with a lot of possibilities if you chose to go it alone. Just don't bother crying because you want the game to be a watered down version that the devs don't want it to be. Rocket keeps saying he will not vary from his original vision. What the hell will all these poor crybabies do when SA comes out?

[Zetal 90]

Again with the "difficulty". For the 70th time, I welcome more difficulty. Your comments above only serve to show how you feel about those of us who don't like the difficulty of playing solitaire with a deck of 46 cards.

Still throwing the word "difficulty" around like you are only shows you don't understand our posts for some reason. We want difficulty, But it has to be FAIR and MAKE SENSE. Giving zombies superpowers is contrived. How can you fail to see that?

And I did not bring up the "faux realism". Others professing unconditional love for the patch did. I have only pointed out how the patch IS NOT realistic. It is no longer a simulation. I did this following statements like this: "Dayz is not for the casual gamer. It is a REALISTIC SIMULATION of a zombie apocalypse."

If I'm misunderstood or misquoted I will clarify my statements. I guess this makes me "arrogant".

You welcome more difficulty, yet when you're presented with such difficulty, you reject it as being 'unrealistic' and using mudslinging terms like 'superpowered' zombies, when anyone who has played the current patch and is being honest with themselves knows that the Zombies are anything but 'superpowered'. They are strong, and aren't as stupid as a gerbil. Running around two corners and losing a zombie is laughably pathetic, and does not at all realistically represent any form of predatorial creature. Even basic animals can understand the concept of movement prediction. 1.7.7 makes Zombies more realistic, not less. I wouldn't go so far as to say that it is 'realistic' yet, but it is MORE realistic than previous patches.

Ok i realize now you didn't get the sarcasm...But anyway and for the sake of debate what in your opinion makes Zeds difficult at the moment ?

You really just aren't reading what I'm saying, are you? I don't think the zombies are difficult. I was quoting Cadian, and responding to his post. In fact, they're still kind of a pushover for people that know what they're doing. Are they 'harder' than in 1.7.6? Yep.

Edited June 17, 2013 by Zetal

[HazZarD87 166]

Again with the "difficulty". For the 70th time, I welcome more difficulty. Your comments above only serve to show how you feel about those of us who don't like the difficulty of playing solitaire with a deck of 46 cards.

Still throwing the word "difficulty" around like you are only shows you don't understand our posts for some reason. We want difficulty, But it has to be FAIR and MAKE SENSE. Giving zombies superpowers is contrived. How can you fail to see that?

And I did not bring up the "faux realism". Others professing unconditional love for the patch did. I have only pointed out how the patch IS NOT realistic. It is no longer a simulation as it was. I did this following statements like this: "Dayz is not for the casual gamer. It is a REALISTIC SIMULATION of a zombie apocalypse."

If I'm misunderstood or misquoted I will clarify my statements. I guess this makes me "arrogant".

What it felt most like to me is that we are dealing with "ghosts" now instead of zombies, that just appear all over chernarus out of thin air. I can see what ideas the current state of the zeds is trying to put into practice but they just aren't going to work in the mod which is shackled to ArmA 2 soldier AI and client side spawning of zeds.

A good example of this is the campfire zombs. Sure I get the idea behind it: you put up your fire, couple of zeds see some flickering light where there was none before, they come and check it out... mayhem! However since there are no zeds wandering about regardless of where players are, as you will have in the SA or would have where there truly a Zpocalypse.. they just spawn out of thin air and the whole idea is shot to bits. Instead of giving you the idea you attracted a bunch of zeds from somewhere you just notice a horribly broken mechanic.

I'd love for zeds to be dangerous, I'd love the suspense of having to be on your tip-toes not to trigger a horde of the things coming after you when make a "grocery" trip into town. Or watching a wandering horde in a more rural area forcing you to take a big detour. What I don't love at all is that they just seem to be crawling out of the ground like Michael Jackson video versions of zombs.

The bottom line is that there are limitations to what the ArmA engine can do for zombs. I'm getting the feeling they tried to keep the mod in pace with the SA ideas for zombies, something that you simply cannot do because of ArmA's limitations. It's the very reason why the standalone was being built up from the ground.

[Thasik 79]

Its a zombie apocalypse. You get hit, you get infected.

Oh it's a zombie apocalypse that means I should be able to find some leather to make some armor. That way I won't get bit as easy, right?

Wait you mean I can't do that?

Oh and I didn't know zombies were able to hit past a wall into a building. When the real apocalypse comes around do you think I should prepare for zombies AND ghosts?

[rod (DayZ) 20]

You welcome more difficulty, yet when you're presented with such difficulty, you reject it as being 'unrealistic' and using mudslinging terms like 'superpowered' zombies, when anyone who has played the current patch and is being honest with themselves knows that the Zombies are anything but 'superpowered'. They are strong, and aren't as stupid as a gerbil. Running around two corners and losing a zombie is laughably pathetic, and does not at all realistically represent any form of predatorial creature. Even basic animals can understand the concept of movement prediction. 1.7.7 makes Zombies more realistic, not less. I wouldn't go so far as to say that it is 'realistic' yet, but it is MORE realistic than previous patches.

You really just aren't reading what I'm saying, are you? I don't think the zombies are difficult. I was quoting Cadian, and responding to his post. In fact, they're still kind of a pushover for people that know what they're doing. Are they 'harder' than in 1.7.6? Yep.

And you obviously don't get the point, what you're are calling "difficulty" comes from bugs and glitches, Zeds aren't "difficult", they are bugged. The common mistake with you supporters of the 1.7.7 is that you're mixing up bugs and difficulty. Since when playing a buggier game makes it more difficult ? It makes it more frustrating...period .That's what cadian is trying to explain to you with great difficulties since you seem incapable of grasping the concept. Now here are you showing up with your so called skills and cheap tricks every average joe and his cousin already knows about and pretending to be comfortable playing a game that feels like good old times. Well of course it does feel like good ol'times, we are right back where we were a year ago bug wise, with no game difficulty added but a ton of bugs to make up for it. More bugs for you guys = more difficulty and a step in the right direction ? Well, I could understand deniability from a dev happy with himself and not willing to admit that what he did is broken, but the same attitude coming from members of the community makes me wonder where freakin common sense decided to take its vacation this year.

Edited June 17, 2013 by rod

[Zetal 90]

And you obviously don't get the point, what you're are calling "difficulty" comes from bugs and glitches, Zeds aren't "difficult", they are bugged. The common mistake with you supporters of the 1.7.7 is that you're mixing up bugs and difficulty. Since when playing a buggier game makes it more difficult ? It makes it more frustrating...period .That's what cadian is trying to explain to you with great difficulties since you seem incapable of grasping the concept. Now here are you showing up with your so called skills and cheap tricks every average joe and his cousin already knows about and pretending to be comfortable playing a game that feels like good old times. Well of course it does feel like good ol'times, we are right back where we were a year ago bug wise, with no game difficulty added but a ton of bugs to make up for it. More bugs for you guys = more difficulty and a step in the right direction ? Well, I could understand deniability from a dev happy with himself and not willing to admit that what he did is broken, but the same attitude coming from members of the community makes me wonder where freakin common sense decided to take its vacation this year.

Bugs? You mean the same bugs we've had for nearly 6 major versions now? Zombies hitting through walls, spawning where they shouldn't, etc etc? Welcome to Arma 2. This is a mod. Unfortunately the majority of these bugs cannot be fixed, and have been here for a long, long time now. Do you understand now why when you say that you're complaining about "bugs" that it's obvious to anyone that you're only now complaining because you find the game hard, now? The bugs that I've seen mentioned thus far and haven't been confirmed as having a fix coming soon have been around for a long time, and unfortunately can't be fixed without changing the Arma 2 engine. Zombies hitting through walls, phasing through objects... Server incongruities due to Arma 2.

[rod (DayZ) 20]

Bugs? You mean the same bugs we've had for nearly 6 major versions now? Zombies hitting through walls, spawning where they shouldn't, etc etc? Welcome to Arma 2. This is a mod. Unfortunately the majority of these bugs cannot be fixed, and have been here for a long, long time now. Do you understand now why when you say that you're complaining about "bugs" that it's obvious to anyone that you're only now complaining because you find the game hard, now? The bugs that I've seen mentioned thus far and haven't been confirmed as having a fix coming soon have been around for a long time, and unfortunately can't be fixed without changing the Arma 2 engine. Zombies hitting through walls, phasing through objects... Server incongruities due to Arma 2.

Then why for christ's sake are these in changelog ? (NEW] - Zeds hitting through Walls/Buildings should now be fixed.

[FIXED] - Zeds spawning underground.

[uPDATED] - Zed sight limited to 100 meters. It's clear now that what's you're trying to achieve is to demonstrate that people complaining about bugs are in fact complaining about difficulty and that in itself shows the extent of your bad faith concerning this matter. Never have i complained about the game being too hard, you just made that assumption out of thin air to accomodate your biased point of view.

Edited June 17, 2013 by rod

[Zetal 90]

Then why for christ's sake are these in changelog ? (NEW] - Zeds hitting through Walls/Buildings should now be fixed.

[FIXED] - Zeds spawning underground.

[uPDATED] - Zed sight limited to 100 meters. It's clear now that what's you're trying to achieve is to demonstrate that people complaining about bugs are in fact complaining about difficulty and that in itself shows the extent of your bad faith concerning this matter. Never have i complained about the game being too hard, you just made that assumption out of thin air to accomodate your biased point of view.

Because those are extremely rough-and-tumble attempts at fixing the bugs that have plagued this mod for so many months. As the Developers have openly stated on several occasions, however, some models simply don't support the fixes they've tried to implement, which makes fixes impossible. Besides that, I'm not sure you understand what I'm saying: You showed up only after Patch 1.7.7, complaining it introduced so many new bugs, when these bugs have BEEN HERE ALREADY. Get it yet?

[rod (DayZ) 20]

Because those are extremely rough-and-tumble attempts at fixing the bugs that have plagued this mod for so many months. As the Developers have openly stated on several occasions, however, some models simply don't support the fixes they've tried to implement, which makes fixes impossible. Besides that, I'm not sure you understand what I'm saying: You showed up only after Patch 1.7.7, complaining it introduced so many new bugs, when these bugs have BEEN HERE ALREADY. Get it yet?

Surely tent suddenly catching fire when destroyed is a new bug, or at least one i hadn't seen before and i saw many. Zeds going through walls have never been so present not to mention LoS since a zeds now spots you even when you're behind its backs and not moving at all with 0 visibility and 0 noise. More to the point if something isn't fixed then what's the use of reporting it as fixed in the first place ? Futhermore, what's me showing up after patch 1.7.7 has to do with anything ? Are my points any less valid because of this ? Since when being present on forums for any lenght of time entitles people with more or less credibility ? But to answer your question i mainly joined because 1.7.7 clearly pushed me over the edge along with people who write here pretending all is well in the best of world. Maybe you'd prefer me quietly quiting the game so people like you could have it their way with the dev giving in to your demands. Well, sorry, but that ain't gonna happen anytime soon and if i feel the need to express my views here or anywhere else, then goddamnit i will and so should everyone thinking as i do.

Edited June 17, 2013 by rod

[U.G.N - Jedi Panda 1319]

Man there's so much crying about this patch. Get over it or go back to Farmville where you belong. Its a zombie apocalypse. You get hit, you get infected. There aren't any zombie universes in fiction where you get hit 200 times in an hour and somehow live. The devs have already been nice enough to give you the ability to survive a hit. Every time I read about a server owner rolling back to an easier patch I wonder why they're even bothering with Dayz to begin with. Seriously, why aren't they just running Arma2 and being done with if they don't want to be bothered with having to deal with zombies the way zombies should be dealt with? What kind of person would chose to go into the biggest city in their country, for any reason whatsoever, during a zombie apocalypse? Its a huge map with a lot of possibilities if you chose to go it alone. Just don't bother crying because you want the game to be a watered down version that the devs don't want it to be. Rocket keeps saying he will not vary from his original vision. What the hell will all these poor crybabies do when SA comes out?

They'll reach for a new box of tissues :P

[Cadian412 31]

Bugs? You mean the same bugs we've had for nearly 6 major versions now? Zombies hitting through walls, spawning where they shouldn't, etc etc? Welcome to Arma 2. This is a mod. Unfortunately the majority of these bugs cannot be fixed, and have been here for a long, long time now.

Yes, and exactly because of the limits of the Arma 2 engine, raising zombie difficulty should be done with great care. It can easily be overdone as it now has been in my opinion.

Here's what I would like to see:

-Get rid of the bloodhound ability: if you've "trapped" zombies in a building and are 100 meters or so away from them, you should have lost them.

-Introduce additional and easier ways of losing zombies: the current system is just a terrible bore, it's not exactly hard, zombies aren't even able to kill you as long as you're running, It's just an annoying waste of your time and makes the game a lot less fun

-Reduce detection/aggro: doesn't have to be a whole lot, but looting is either just way to tedious or often impossible. Moving them further away from the loot would ameliorate this problem as well (I've also noticed what I presume is a bug, with zombies sometimes just endlessly standing in a loot location).

-Some minor changes in the knockdown ability: seem to be incoming.

-Major changes in the whole infection mechanic: seem to be incoming as well.

Things like zombie damage, zombie hit points, überzombies, knockdown and other status effect chances don't even have to be touched (with exception of the infection rate), and could even be raised to compensate. Current loot levels wouldn't need increasing as well.

[Zetal 90]

Yes, and exactly because of the limits of the Arma 2 engine, raising zombie difficulty should be done with great care. It can easily be overdone as it now has been in my opinion.

Here's what I would like to see:

-Get rid of the bloodhound ability: if you've "trapped" zombies in a building and are 100 meters or so away from them, you should have lost them.

-Introduce additional and easier ways of losing zombies: the current system is just a terrible bore, it's not exactly hard, zombies aren't even able to kill you as long as you're running, It's just an annoying waste of your time and makes the game a lot less fun

-Reduce detection/aggro: doesn't have to be a whole lot, but looting is either just way to tedious or often impossible. Moving them further away from the loot would ameliorate this problem as well (I've also noticed what I presume is a bug, with zombies sometimes just endlessly standing in a loot location).

-Some minor changes in the knockdown ability: seem to be incoming.

-Major changes in the whole infection mechanic: seem to be incoming as well.

Things like zombie damage, zombie hit points, überzombies, knockdown and other status effect chances don't even have to be touched (with exception of the infection rate), and could even be raised to compensate. Current loot levels wouldn't need increasing as well.

I could see a lot of those suggestions working and I actually somewhat agree with you, but I get really worried when people talk about making it easier to lose zombies again. Since you can always outrun them no matter what, making them lose you easy makes them not a threat again, no matter how hard they hit. Forcing players to deal with them by not breaking LoS, though, makes up for the zombies never catching you. You'll need to stop eventually, after all.

[Cadian412 31]

I could see a lot of those suggestions working and I actually somewhat agree with you, but I get really worried when people talk about making it easier to lose zombies again. Since you can always outrun them no matter what, making them lose you easy makes them not a threat again, no matter how hard they hit. Forcing players to deal with them by not breaking LoS, though, makes up for the zombies never catching you. You'll need to stop eventually, after all.

Sure, that might very well be. That's why it's perhaps better to focus on decreasing the aggro. Decreasing that won't allow you to suddenly run carelessly through zombies, yet it would make sneaking around them much more of a possibility than it is now.

And why not introduce certain items that can deaggro them, that would deal with the annoying chase in a different way. Drop something on the ground which they will focus on and leave you alone. That item could be disposable so you can't use that tactic time and time again.

Edited June 17, 2013 by Cadian412

[Zetal 90]

Sure, that might very well be. That's why it's perhaps better to focus on decreasing the aggro. Decreasing that won't allow you to suddenly run carelessly through zombies, yet it would make sneaking around them much more of a possibility than it is now.

And why not introduce certain items that can deaggro them, that would deal with the annoying chase in a different way. Drop something on the ground which they will focus on and leave you alone. That item could be disposable so you can't use that tactic time and time again.

I think a good common ground would be to basically make it so that it's harder to get zombies to start chasing you if you're sneaking (give more reward for player actions and put more control in their hands) but keep the same LoS checks we currently have

[mluminos 31]

fresh spawn here, just got the game when 1.7.7 was implemented and have heard nothing but complaints about it.

The infection rate either needs to be lowered, or the antibiotics spawn increased. Sometimes loot fails to spawn altogether.

Ive looted many hospitals and see one bottle of antibiotics.

I was even so unfortunate to spawn in the water near the shore and become sick before I could even make it to shore.

What has happened is you have made it tough, too tough. It's at the point where many people give up after becoming infected, once I'm infected and my blood is low I just let myself get killed. I cant see, cant aim, cant do anything, I've consumed all my food trying to get my blood up. If you dont have antibiotics or get them before dropping to 1/3 blood, its GG.

[need matches 84]

I think a good common ground would be to basically make it so that it's harder to get zombies to start chasing you if you're sneaking (give more reward for player actions and put more control in their hands) but keep the same LoS checks we currently have

This is one of the things we have been saying all along.

Now, say if I shoot off a Winnie in a garage, and five zombies were around when I went in there, within in three seconds there shouldn't be 8 zombies in there. There should be five in there with those within hearing on their way there. But zombies shouldn't spawn where there were none just because of a Winnie shot. That's breaking the rules just for the sake of "difficulty".

If I'm on a football team, and tomorrow I play a better team, that is difficulty. But if the other team gets to make up new rules as they go along, that is manufactured unfairness.

If we can keep difficulty while getting rid of unfairness, then I think 99% of everyone will be happier.

[Zetal 90]

This is one of the things we have been saying all along.

Now, say if I shoot off a Winnie in a garage, and five zombies were around when I went in there, within in three seconds there shouldn't be 8 zombies in there. There should be five in there with those within hearing on their way there. But zombies shouldn't spawn where there were none just because of a Winnie shot. That's breaking the rules just for the sake of "difficulty".

If I'm on a football team, and tomorrow I play a better team, that is difficulty. But if the other team gets to make up new rules as they go along, that is manufactured unfairness.

If we can keep difficulty while getting rid of unfairness, then I think 99% of everyone will be happier.

Oh, I don't mean gunshots. If you're silly enough to think that they won't hear something as loud as a Winchester, you're thinking rather unrealistically just to preserve gameplay. I mean sneaking around and such like that. Giving more control of the game to the player. Firing a gun is already a players choice- and one that, realistically, makes a huge amount of obvious noise.

[hrdrok 183]

I understand that the zombie's new bloodhound abilities are making them more realistic, but I think they need to balance this somewhat. The big issue is for those just starting a new life. I restarted after this patch to start over with a friend just learning to play. It has been A MAJOR PAIN for my friend and he basically doesn't want to play because once he aggro's a zombie, he is basically dead. If Rocket wants it hard to escape zombies then that is fine with me, but give us either better melee options (preferably smoother melee system overall) or make aggro'n them harder. Ideally a combination of both. It's a tough world out there. I can be patient and loot any building, but for beginners it is asking a lot.

On a side note, infection hasn't been much of an issue for me. I have got infected twice, and have been hit several dozen times since the new patch. I think those numbers are fine.

[need matches 84]

Oh, I don't mean gunshots. If you're silly enough to think that they won't hear something as loud as a Winchester, you're thinking rather unrealistically just to preserve gameplay. I mean sneaking around and such like that. Giving more control of the game to the player. Firing a gun is already a players choice- and one that, realistically, makes a huge amount of obvious noise.

Of course zombies are going to come if I shoot a gun. That's what I said. Are you even reading what I write? Or do you just see the words "gun" and "zombies" and assume you don't have to read the rest? When did I say zombies shouldn't hear a gunshot?

Extra zombies that weren't even in the area should not SPAWN OUT OF THIN AIR within 3 seconds. That is what I'm talking about.

You'll see I said SPAWN, not run. When I shoot a gun, all zombies in the area should run at me.

Extra zombies should not suddenly and MAGICALLY appear OUT OF THIN AIR.

That is an unfair mechanic, the contrived type I talk about, breaking the rules of the game to increase difficulty with no regard for gameplay rules.

Now if you want to ADD MORE ZOMBIES to the area so that more attack me...THAT MAKES SENSE. Dropping ghosts on me does not.

Say there are six zombies on a football field and I'm center field. I shoot a gun. All six should run at me. Five more should not fall out of the sky 1m away from me. Whether you are sneaking or not there should only be six zombies on the field. IF you want to put eight zombies on the field before I shoot the gun, then I would expect 8 zombies to come at me when I shoot.

I don't see how you fail to see what I mean. I really think you are missing what people are saying, for whatever reason you just don't seem to grasp their MEANING. I'm convinced at this point that you are simply trolling me. Honestly.

Edited June 18, 2013 by need matches