Weapon damage general discussion.

[madhellsing 31]

Even a 22LR would kill and wound you pretty bad man. One shot in the leg and you can't walk even the Navy Seals use it to take out people in silence..

[CreepySalad 108]

Alright seeing as I am apparently out voted on the damage of a makarov, what do you guys think it should be around?

After seeing how many people dislike the damage lets say what if it did 1100 blood? I think its overkill but I guess its up to the community and dev's.

I think guns should be "overpowered."

They shoot red-hot lead at you over 600 MPH.

They are dangerous, and should be represented as such in game.

Hopefully with this revamped damage system, hits to certain places on the body should do more damage.

They could counter that by making ammo and guns themselves, way more rare.

[enforcer1975 1111]

Well they are not 2000°C hot but prolly quite hot, i don't think that would bother you anyway since you will have a big hole in you that will draw your attention. But currently guns are more like a minor a nuisance to be honest.

[CreepySalad 108]

Well they are not 2000°C hot but prolly quite hot, i don't think that would bother you anyway since you will have a big hole in you that will draw your attention. But currently guns are more like a minor a nuisance to be honest.

Yeah, they shouldn't be. They should be devastating. To the point where you don't want to take chances with a guy with a Makarov.

[burritoman259 593]

If it did 1100 damage it could still take around 10 shots to kill. I think we should do away with the hitpoint system entirely, and instead focus on lethal and non lethal shots. Shoot someone in the heart, neck or head, and they're pretty much done for. Shoot someone in the foot 30 times, and they wouldn't just die from being shot, maybe from shock or blood loss. None lethal injuries would still have big effects on the player though, such as being knocked down or immobilized. Then people will stop having so many problems with guns being so weak, and you won't be able to take 3 rounds from an assault rifle and walk away.

This system would actually be good in standalone now that I have given it a bit of thought beans to you.

Well they are not 2000°C.

I'm no medic but if something came out around that hot wouldn't it seal the would after it burned through you.

[TheBambiAvenger 146]

Damages are hard to even out, however I think the damages should stay the same and player health should be reduced by 1/3 or even 1/2.

Not necessarily, I think they should just boost the damage of pistols.

[m.w. vindicator 880]

I'll post here what I posted elsewhere. This my general idea about Russia pistols and ballistics in general. Personally I would throw my money at the screen if the Stechkin APS/APB, Makarov PM, Makarov PMm, OTs-33 Pernach, and everyother russian pistol out there made it into the game. Personally I believe that those guns would be the most common weapons available. I believe that finding a Makarov should be a fucking great thing for your character. Having a gun should be rare unlike the mod, IN MY OPINION. Currently, finding a gun is relatively easy and only takes roughly 10-15min. I feel it should be MUCH harder. Many players should have to rely on melee weapons for defense for a considerable amount of time. Off course, so will get lucky, but many more would be at the mercy of the man with the gun.

Why does there have to be big guns at all. No AS50s, M107s, M82s, PTRDs, PTRS-41s, KSVKs, OSV-96s or any other tacticool snipper rifle for 1337 snipers. I love PvP and PvE in this game but I feel sniping with the highest-tech gear possible isn't really something for DayZ.

I my opinion, a large part of the community is spoiled with tactic-cool gear. I hope Rocket and team remove it, because personally I think it has have no place in DayZ.

I feel fighting in the streets with shotguns, pistols, and knives with a side of Zeds, is WAY more fun than having a sniper duel. Especially because ArmA 2's sniper simulation is lacking in certain aspects. Hopefully guns, knives, and every other bloody fucking weapon is more deadly. Everytime I hear about someone surviving 10+ shots from a GUN in DayZ, a part of me dies.

IRL I don't feel like any average person without body armor could take a shot from a 9x18 caliber weapon and remain standing. I am NOT AN EXPERT but I can't imagine by self or any other average citizen taking a bullet and not evening flinching like the current mod. I understand that during an adrenaline rush, someone could maybe take a shot, but taking more than 3 shots from ANY gun seems absolutely absurd.

Even caliber's like 5.56x45 which receive criticism for not being deadly, are EXTREMELY good at wounding people. In a war, it is often better to wound an enemy combatant so that other personnel have to be diverted to save the wounded individual. I feel this should be represented in DayZ. If your character gets hit by 5.56x45, 5.45x39 or some other intermediate caliber the character should be knocked down. Simply bandaging should not be good enough. Eventually the bullet would have to be removed, if it didn't already exit the body. It should be necessary to bandage multiple times to stop the critical bleeding. Your character should pass out in seconds from pain and blood loss much like the ACE mod, if shot. If you pass out, it is very possible that you would bleed out while immobilized. This could frustrate some people, but I feel like it would add authenticity, which, I think, is more important.

Large rounds should be lethal. I find it ridiculous that someone can survive a hit from 7.62x51mm NATO or 7.62x54mmR (or other variants like 7.62x54mm 7N1, or 7N11). Those bullets are HUGE and I don't no how anyone could live through a hit from one of those guns. If some ones knows otherwise, send me a link, but currently I can't imagine anyone living from a sucessful hit from .303 British, .30-06, 7.62x51, .308 and .300 Magnum, or anyother full size rifle bullet. The muzzle velocity on those large weapons is VERY high

Sorry for my rant but after seeing many of the post in this thread, I felt people are misinterpreting what DayZ game will be like. I HIGHLY doubt Rocket will let his game turn into a sniper/machine gun fest. The mod is currently a sniper/machine gun fest and I doubt that was Dean's original idea.

I posted the above in a thread about .50 cals.

Below is some vids about the 9x18 bullet and my opinions on it. I believe 1-3 shots from a 9mm weapon (9x18 or 9x19 or anyother variant) should nearly always be lethal. I want people to cry on the forums about it. All guns should be deadly, as the are in a real life scernario.

The effectiveness of weapons is always a hot topic on the internet. Like I said earlier everyone has opinions about guns and ballistics. I agree with you though, I think 5.56 is very effective in the 50-300 range. Ballistics are sooo complicated that bullets can sometimes do different amounts of damage (less or more )at very close ranges compared to a couple hundred meters.

Some strange calibers like 9x39mm (all the variants like PAB-9, SP-5, and SP-6) are subsonic, armor piercing, and very deadly but are subsonic. This means they have no sonic boom and are much quieter. The round is used in Russian special weaponry. This is just goes to show that bullets/ballistics are weird and MANY factors play into effectiveness.

Here is a list of things I can think of off the top of my head that effect a bullet's ballistics. Keep in mind, I AM NOT AN EXPERT!!!!

-width (this is obvious. 12.7 is bigger than 5.56 and is heavier when it hits)

-length. I don't really know how it effects a bullet but surely it does.

-amount of powder

-If the bullet is jacketed or unjacketed

-what is the bullets core? Steel, lead, or something else

-length of the barrel. Longer barrels increase muzzle velocity and this effects things

-super sonic or subsonic

-ballistic trajectory. Subsonic bullets drop off at much closer ranges. Large rounds like 12.7x99 can travel for thousands of meters

Those are just some things that effect a bullet that I know. I don't know how each variable effects the bullet exactly. Keep in mind that I may have forgotten something. I am just a dude on the internet, not some prof. with degree.

In this video, someone shoots a 95gr 9x18 round at ballistic gel. Notice how much the gel kicks from the impact with the bullet. Surely, if that was a person, they would have gotten knocked down, if not killed outright.

Note that this is a upgraded bullet for CIVILIAN use. Also note the he used a CZ 82, not a PM Makarov. But all things considered, I feel this would still be lethal.

In the second vid illustrates regular 9x18 FMJ that is in the game.

As you can see in the video, the round is effective, but no the best. Remember, I AM NOT AN EXPERT. The videos are simply evidence that supports my thoughts.

Finally another video. This reviews the gun and the round.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KQtGGHLRz4

Notice that many people in the videos say how the round isn't the BEST but it is sure better than nothing. In the Mod, a Makarov is worse than an AXE vs Players. I feel that this is unacceptable. A person with a melee weapon could never win a headlong charge in the barrel on ANY gun. The person wielding the gun would simply have to land ONE shot out of many to severely hinder the ability of a person to strike back. Some one that just got shot will probably be knocked over/off balance. The pain and the wound will prevent them from effectively retaliating with the melee weapon. The person might survive one bullet depending on where it hits.

A hit to the upper chest would probably drop a person to the ground. There would be no way the ax-wielder could fight back.

A hit to the leg would cause the ax wielder to fall. With the wounded leg, that person could never get close enough too the gun user to cause damage to the gun user.

A hit to the arm and the ax-wielder wouldn't be able to effectively swing.

A hit to the head... yeah about that

:murder:-> :bandit: -> x_x

AxProSmasher was killed

The guy with the gun would win a head on fight all day. Melee weapons would have to be used with cunning and surprise, like they are used in real life situations.

I hope Rocket sees this and considers this. I am just one forumer, but I believe some of you will agree with me. Maybe a compromise could be reached. Surviving 10+ shots is fucked up but maybe 1-3 shots with (arguably) the worst round in the game is too hardcore.

If you disagree please respond with evidence. Here on the internet, everyone thinks they are an expert. PLEASE realize I am just a dude on the internet, not some prof. I doubt the average forumer is a PHD in gunpowder ballistics. Some of you are bound to disagree with and everyone has their opinions on guns. I can't say it enough.

There is my Mega-post. I hope you take a moment and read it. I would appreciate it b/c I am quite passionate about guns in DayZ. I always love shooting guns in games and in this game, I want hardcore realism.

Sorry about the stupid "" at the end of the quoted paragraphs

[m.w. vindicator 880]

i want 10mm glocks and 9mm, .38 and .45 lever action rifles.

This game need mUCH more weapon variety, and to make them much more rare.

I agree with variety as long as it makes sense. I am not opposed to western weaponry in the game. I feel a large variety of Eastern weaponry from all backgrounds should be in the game. I still want weapons to be really rare, but eastern guns should be more common relatively in Chernarus.

I feel a 4 to 1 average East vs West ratio for guns makes sense. Note that western civilian guns would be more common that western military guns so the ratio is just a rough average based on MY opinion.

If I saw a large variety of Czech, Slavic, Ukrainian, Russian, Polish, Chinese, and Middle Eastern weapons in the game I would be IMMENSELY pleased.

That being said I would also be happy finding western guns, as long as they aren't as frequently found as their eastern counterparts.

For example, it should be quite possible to find a Beretta M9 or a Colt M1911 because those are popular firearms. Same goes for Glocks, H&K weapons, FN weapons, and SiG weapons. Military weapons would be a lot more location specific than weapons like shotguns, which are sold all over the world.

If we ever see a map in a place that isn't eastern Europe, I would hope that the weaponry of the new location is represented fairly.

[-Gews- 7443]

Not necessarily, I think they should just boost the damage of pistols.

Yes, but then you have the problem of relativity... Bohemia uses (roughly) the energy of the round to calculate the damage it does. If you boost pistol calibers only, then you have an issue with how they compare to the rifle rounds.

On the other hand you can't tell how effective a round will be simply from its energy.

Note that this is a upgraded bullet for CIVILIAN use. Also note the he used a CZ 82, not a PM Makarov. But all things considered, I feel this would still be lethal.

The Makarov in the game fires FMJ, there is a massive difference in the effect Hornady's hollowpoints will have compared to FMJ. Also, you can't say "this would be lethal", because of course it could be, but then on the other hand you have stories of people taking .45 hollowpoints and carrying on like nothing happened. It all depends on the person and where you hit them.

The problem with the game right now is you can't shoot someone in the heart and kill them, unless it's a headshot, the round does essentially the same damage every time, which is unrealistic and should be fixed. I weep.

A person with a melee weapon could never win a headlong charge in the barrel on ANY gun.

Well, I wouldn't say "never". Famous example, the US Army had a different experience with Moro warriors charging them in the Phillipines... their .38s (probably about the same effectiveness as a Makarov) were not effective in stopping the warriors. Also I've heard from at least one person, neither were the .45s...

I agree it's ridiculous the Makarov is worse than a hatchet. It's pretty annoying.

Which is why I want to see a revamped damage system...

I feel a 4 to 1 average East vs West ratio for guns makes sense. Note that western civilian guns would be more common that western military guns so the ratio is just a rough average based on MY opinion.

Well, on the other hand there were Western military operations in Chernarus before the outbreak, hence the wrecked Humvees all over the roads.

But on the other other hand, that was just a backstory so they could have an explanation for using the default ArmA weapons.

Edited February 24, 2013 by Gews

[m.w. vindicator 880]

as far as I know the russian army and law forces are using the Jarygina Pja ...17 rounds 9x19 mm (Nato compatible)..very sexy :) ..as I stated before I really hope for more russian weapons regading the Russian backgound of the map

Edit : finding Makarovs though seems to be very realistic

I am not really sure but I believe that the the armament of the police isn't standardized. I believe that some use new Pjas. I know the Ukrainians used to use the Fort-12 and the PM Makarov. I think I saw that some police forces use Stechkin APS and some Stechkin APBs are used in special police units.

Czech police use the CZ-75 now. A pistol called the CZ-82 was used in the (wait for it) 80's and is similar to the Makarov. I feel all these weapons should be added with time.

[smore98 225]

The game is modern, but I don't think it's that modern. Wouldn't it be much more stressing to have a pistol that can clear out that occasional zombie, rather than one that has 4 extra bullets.

The Makarov PM is a relic to this game, and any replacement can never fill in the hole reserved for my bullet.

[m.w. vindicator 880]

Yes, but then you have the problem of relativity... Bohemia uses (roughly) the energy of the round to calculate the damage it does. If you boost pistol calibers only, then you have an issue with how they compare to the rifle rounds.

On the other hand you can't tell how effective a round will be simply from its energy.

The Makarov in the game fires FMJ, there is a massive difference in the effect Hornady's hollowpoints will have compared to FMJ. Also, you can't say "this would be lethal", because of course it could be, but then on the other hand you have stories of people taking .45 hollowpoints and carrying on like nothing happened. It all depends on the person and where you hit them.

The problem with the game right now is you can't shoot someone in the heart and kill them, unless it's a headshot, the round does essentially the same damage every time, which is unrealistic and should be fixed. I weep.

Well, I wouldn't say "never". Famous example, the US Army had a different experience with Moro warriors charging them in the Phillipines... their .38s (probably about the same effectiveness as a Makarov) were not effective in stopping the warriors. Also I've heard from at least one person, neither were the .45s...

I agree it's ridiculous the Makarov is worse than a hatchet. It's pretty annoying.

Which is why I want to see a revamped damage system...

Well, on the other hand there were Western military operations in Chernarus before the outbreak, hence the wrecked Humvees all over the roads.

But on the other other hand, that was just a backstory so they could have an explanation for using the default ArmA weapons.

You make good points. I respect your opinion. I feel that people surviving hits form .45 ACP JHP rounds are in a extreme small group. People could survive 9x18 for sure. The problem is that even if they survive, they will be badly wounded. This (like you said) is not represented.

I know that there is a BIG difference between the JHP rounds and FMJ. One of the vids show the effects of FMJ compared to JHP. I suggest you watch that one. It is only a few minutes.

EDIT: Note that even the regular FMJ creates a cavity in the gel. That would be the part of the wound that injures the person the most. A hit in the chest would kill if a cavity of that size formed. Off course, humans are known for their vermin like durability and ability to stay alive.

I heard that story about the Philippinos. Weren't they on drugs?

Edited February 24, 2013 by Vindicator

[m.w. vindicator 880]

OP, change the thread title to Pistol damage and the Makarov or something like that. There is a lot of good discussion about ballistics and the damage system.

[gibonez 3633]

Pfft, nope the damage is fine its only a small round remember that its the same as the pp-19's 9x18.

I feel the damage is appropriate for it.

Damage is broken with all the guns atm.

For example the .308s in the m24 and m40 only do about 2k blood damage at 800 meters or more.

Big .308 caliber bullet traveling super sonic only does 2k damage cmon.

[-Gews- 7443]

Damage is broken with all the guns atm.

For example the .308s in the m24 and m40 only do about 2k blood damage at 800 meters or more.

Big .308 caliber bullet traveling super sonic only does 2k damage cmon.

Let's examine this:

The standard sniping load for the M24 is a 175-grain Sierra MatchKing at 2,580 fps.

Seems impressive, but at 800 meters, the round would only be going 1,300 fps!

So now that's a 175 grain bullet at 1,300 fps, which would only have 657 ft-lbs of energy. Compare that to a 5.56mm from an M16 at 200 meters, which would have 715 ft-lbs of energy.

That's the reason sniper rifles lose power at long range, in some cases significantly.

Edit: still, even at that range, it would be like being shot with a very powerful handgun at point blank range.

Edited February 25, 2013 by Gews

[radivmoe 47]

I'll post here what I posted elsewhere. This my general idea about Russia pistols and ballistics in general. Personally I would throw my money at the screen if the Stechkin APS/APB, Makarov PM, Makarov PMm, OTs-33 Pernach, and everyother russian pistol out there made it into the game. Personally I believe that those guns would be the most common weapons available. I believe that finding a Makarov should be a fucking great thing for your character. Having a gun should be rare unlike the mod, IN MY OPINION. Currently, finding a gun is relatively easy and only takes roughly 10-15min. I feel it should be MUCH harder. Many players should have to rely on melee weapons for defense for a considerable amount of time. Off course, so will get lucky, but many more would be at the mercy of the man with the gun.

I posted the above in a thread about .50 cals.

Below is some vids about the 9x18 bullet and my opinions on it. I believe 1-3 shots from a 9mm weapon (9x18 or 9x19 or anyother variant) should nearly always be lethal. I want people to cry on the forums about it. All guns should be deadly, as the are in a real life scernario.

As you can see in the video, the round is effective, but no the best. Remember, I AM NOT AN EXPERT. The videos are simply evidence that supports my thoughts.

Finally another video. This reviews the gun and the round.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KQtGGHLRz4

Notice that many people in the videos say how the round isn't the BEST but it is sure better than nothing. In the Mod, a Makarov is worse than an AXE vs Players. I feel that this is unacceptable. A person with a melee weapon could never win a headlong charge in the barrel on ANY gun. The person wielding the gun would simply have to land ONE shot out of many to severely hinder the ability of a person to strike back. Some one that just got shot will probably be knocked over/off balance. The pain and the wound will prevent them from effectively retaliating with the melee weapon. The person might survive one bullet depending on where it hits.

A hit to the upper chest would probably drop a person to the ground. There would be no way the ax-wielder could fight back.

A hit to the leg would cause the ax wielder to fall. With the wounded leg, that person could never get close enough too the gun user to cause damage to the gun user.

A hit to the arm and the ax-wielder wouldn't be able to effectively swing.

A hit to the head... yeah about that

:murder:-> :bandit: -> x_x

AxProSmasher was killed

The guy with the gun would win a head on fight all day. Melee weapons would have to be used with cunning and surprise, like they are used in real life situations.

I hope Rocket sees this and considers this. I am just one forumer, but I believe some of you will agree with me. Maybe a compromise could be reached. Surviving 10+ shots is fucked up but maybe 1-3 shots with (arguably) the worst round in the game is too hardcore.

If you disagree please respond with evidence. Here on the internet, everyone thinks they are an expert. PLEASE realize I am just a dude on the internet, not some prof. I doubt the average forumer is a PHD in gunpowder ballistics. Some of you are bound to disagree with and everyone has their opinions on guns. I can't say it enough.

There is my Mega-post. I hope you take a moment and read it. I would appreciate it b/c I am quite passionate about guns in DayZ. I always love shooting guns in games and in this game, I want hardcore realism.

Sorry about the stupid "" at the end of the quoted paragraphs

i enjoy firing guns IRL too :D

[m.w. vindicator 880]

i enjoy firing guns IRL too :D

These aren't my vids. I haven't fired a gun in years. I do enjoy it though

[intensity 157]

The damage is not fine... You can take more than one mag to the chest and not even be near death.

Aim for the head.

[enforcer1975 1111]

Aim for the head.

Still doesn't solve the problem of the underpowered gun problem. You shouldn't be able to take a shot even from a .22 from close distance and walk away without beeing affected ( i was shot in the back multiple times with a Makarov by another player, at first i ran for cover which is the natural response to a threat, after looking at my health i said WTF!!?!?!? did he even hit me or did i hurt myself by hitting some trees on my way? )

[m.w. vindicator 880]

Let's examine this:

The standard sniping load for the M24 is a 175-grain Sierra MatchKing at 2,580 fps.

Seems impressive, but at 800 meters, the round would only be going 1,300 fps!

So now that's a 175 grain bullet at 1,300 fps, which would only have 657 ft-lbs of energy. Compare that to a 5.56mm from an M16 at 200 meters, which would have 715 ft-lbs of energy.

That's the reason sniper rifles lose power at long range, in some cases significantly.

Edit: still, even at that range, it would be like being shot with a very powerful handgun at point blank range.

675 ft lbs would still be lethal often if the round hit right spot wouldn't it? Some pistols rounds like .45 ACP are very dangerous and their muzzle velocity is way less that 1,300

[m.w. vindicator 880]

Aim for the head.

DayZ is about authencity. Taking a mag of bullets to go down isn't authentic unless the player is wearing power armor

Edited February 26, 2013 by Vindicator

[radivmoe 47]

These aren't my vids. I haven't fired a gun in years. I do enjoy it though

you should do it man, go to the firing range

btw the gun i fired was a "Tikka T3 Lite Stainless" (i think it was in that order) with .223 winchester ammo.

Edit: the ammo was handloaded because i'm just that boss.

Edited February 25, 2013 by radivmoe

[-Gews- 7443]

675 ft lbs would still be lethal often if the round hit right spot wouldn't it? Some pistols rounds like .45 ACP are very dangerous and their muzzle velocity is way less that 1,300

Yup, it would kill often, strangely enough I think the original Norma load for the 10mm Auto was a 175-grain bullet at 1,290 ft/s, and that is a very hot load even by today's standards, that level of energy is approaching lower end .44 Magnum levels.

Bohemia actually changed how much damage was done over long distances because it used to be even more ineffective: https://dev-heaven.net/issues/11479

Problem is that at that distance, it's still only in the handgun power range, and handguns in DayZ tend to be overly weak (8 shots with a .45 to kill someone), so the same thing is modelled in the 7.62 rifles.

[m.w. vindicator 880]

you should do it man, go to the firing range

btw the gun i fired was a "Tikka T3 Lite Stainless" (i think it was in that order) with .223 winchester ammo.

Edit: the ammo was handloaded because i'm just that boss.

Where I live you have to be 18 you own a long arm and 21 to own a pistol. If I bought a pistol, It would be a Makarov.

Makarovs are cheap, don't break easily, cheap ammo, easy to use and clean. Great starter pistol.

[m.w. vindicator 880]

Yup, it would kill often, strangely enough I think the original Norma load for the 10mm Auto was a 175-grain bullet at 1,290 ft/s, and that is a very hot load even by today's standards, that level of energy is approaching lower end .44 Magnum levels.

Bohemia actually changed how much damage was done over long distances because it used to be even more ineffective: https://dev-heaven.net/issues/11479

Problem is that at that distance, it's still only in the handgun power range, and handguns in DayZ tend to be overly weak (8 shots with a .45 to kill someone), so the same thing is modelled in the 7.62 rifles.

I REALLY hope Rocket takes a look at the damage system. I know the medical system is being reworked so that should help, but the damage system is flawed. People always call CoD a game for kiddies, and yet in DayZ you survive tons of bullets.