The PvP Discussion Thread

[Derranged 2]

Hello,

Player killing is part of the mod and I am starting to get sick and tired of people complaining about it. It's called Live Or Die, it's your call.

~Derranged

[Freyar 8]

Being able to identify people that you've met (with that "instance" of your character that you have) would go a ways. That said, getting shot by other players happens to me in town more than out in the wilderness. It's something I expect, and it's something anyone else should expect. What exactly are you proposing as a "punishment" that's actually believable here?

The OP was so wrapped up in his "Augh, I got killed" moment he neglected to consider how to identify (mechanics wise), and appropriately punish.

PvP and Banditry won't go away. It will stay (as it rightfully should.) Knowing who's who in a method that makes sense is a really hard question though, as just instantly knowing each and every time you meet someone is a bit on the meta-level. Perhaps we should just.. shrug and accept that maybe if we're looking at 'em, we should get their name in order to allow people to foster a reputation.

[swayzesghost 14]

My first post contained a mechanic suggestion for balancing. I wouldn't expect reading comprehension out of someone with pony shit all over their profile. Please don't even post in my thread, I'm not interested in anything you have to say and nobody else should be either.

[Freyar 8]

Perhaps it could be that I just play on the wrong server at the wrong time, and that's why I don't witness these insane "deathmatches" that apparently are all that goes on these days. I suspect, however, that these claims are just gross exaggerations used to try strengthening one side of the argument.

I must be playing on the wrong servers at the wrong time as well. I've been shot "out of nowhere" before, but it was my own damn fault. The pile of survivor and bandit bodies should have hinted that it was dangerous to go there, but I didn't listen to my gut feeling.

#EDIT

Can we also NOT try and sling mud at either side as well? The assumption that people that fire shots off at players are CoD players pleasing themselves with one hand doesn't help the arguments at all. I'm all for finding a compromise, but why the fuck should I care if the loudest speakers against PvP are going to be insulting me and assuming that I don't think my actions through?

[tremanarch 42]

if you step into a location which clearly is a home for someone or a group - dont just ran around pointing your gun here and there. you might be watched. And when fear is great, the trigger gets pulled.

And do answer in the chat. How often I saw people pointing guns at me and not answering. What shall I think of that?

[jokernthief 28]

Do not think... pull the trigger, Phace! (in kinda those situations)

I want to mention sth else... everywhere is everyone complanining about bad stuff and so on. As long as I play (for a week or so) I met more friendly people than dumbasses. Really, and even when there is just acceptance, it gives the game a smooth touch. I started and ran into a group of 3. They took me with em and it changed my view on video games. It was that fantastic. Later I met other groups, sure we raped around too, just to test it. (but guys, really, my finger gets tensed, when I see a dude running around, with a flare in the night... -.-) But the thing is, I recognized many good guys out there. Never been backstabbed, killed for no reason or sth like that. Lucky me, I know. But think of all those people playing this game not just for the counter! ;)

Oh, and when I recognize, that there are just the same 5 to 6 people chatting on side, but there are 50 people on the server, then I do not think about running to anyone to team up... ;)

[tajin 17]

OP... you talk about how there should be repercussions. It is up to the players to make sure there are repercussions.

If it turns out that some bandits keep murdering players. Team up with a few others and go after them.

A whinchester can kill someone just as well as an assaultrifle can. Except that you'll have much less to loose.

Last night I stumbled over an guy with an NVG, who then decided it was a good idea to shoot me. Well... he actually killed me. However, I had a friend following me who in turn gunned him down. I was on a rather new char at the time and not carrying anything important. He lost his NVG and other stuff for the sake of killing me. Hows that for repercussion ?

Everything you do can have consequences, they just might not always be obvious.

[scramb13r 0]

This mod is a zombie apoc simulator...

If there were no courts, or police or even society and people were desperate for food/water/supplies, do you really think there wouldn't be "random murders".

No to mention they're not "random murders", I am a bandit and I kill people to get better gear. I'm not some giddy 14 year old trying to ruin your fun, I am trying to have my own fun.

In closing may I direct you to games such as club penguin or hello kitty adventure island, I think they would suit you better than a violent, lawless, post apoc zombie game.

---

My first post contained a mechanic suggestion for balancing. I wouldn't expect reading comprehension out of someone with pony shit all over their profile. Please don't even post in my thread' date=' I'm not interested in anything you have to say and nobody else should be either.

[/quote']

As someone who undoubtedly has a higher IQ than you, you sir are an idiot.

Also, "swayzesghost"...that name trumps ponies on the stupidity scale.

[Jrod (DayZ) 3]

Hate to bust your carebear heart, but there's ALOT of people and organizations playing that are only playing to play as if it was a true lawless survival, trust no one, shoot on site, end of the world, never produced before game. Arma II as a game has always been about tactics, avoidance, fire control, UNPREDICTABLE SCENARIOS. Your assessment of the situation is correct and really does not need to be changed.

[tpenn 9]

You should be alert and aware of your surroundings and play the game the way you'd play it if you were actually out there if you want to avoid getting mercilessly ganked over and over again.

It's a survival simulation that doesn't play "the way I'd actually play" (or most humans) in that situation. To succeed in that situation humans would probably gather up other survivors, form a camp, and start to quarantine/retake the island.

But what happens when you're a gamer only set on winning? You don't value your life, just your weapons, you don't value other people's lives, just the +1 frag they give you. I want to play a survival simulation, but the only way to stay alive in this game is to play Quake 3: get the weapons, get the upgrades, shoot for a bit, cycle back in time for the respawns, kill your opponent before they can reach the megahealth, etc.

Have you ever heard of an evolutionary stable strategy? That the emergent strategy is the one which offers the best outcomes against all others?

Playing the game as a survival sim is not a stable strategy, it gets you less rewards than playing the game as a deathmatch (deathmatchers value kills which come easily and care little about death, survivalists care more for setting their own goals and building their character which is easily destroyed by deathmatchers, however death comes at a higher penalty to survivalists).

So that leaves exactly 1 evolutionary stable strategies:

Play the winning strategy all the time: deathmatch mode

I didn't come from a real pvp game like PR to play some silly little pvp mod with zombies for the deathmatching aspects. Those of us who came here for the zombies will simply leave once it's apparent things aren't going to change.

All that will be left are the deathmatchers, whom after having all the easy prey leave (the confused players thikning they're playing a zombie survival game) will only be up against other hardened deathmatchers, at which point they'll all turn to each other and say "well shit, since all that's left is us hardcore deathmatchers why are we bothering with this whole pesky zombie distraction? let's go play ". And so the players who would have enjoyed the survival experience are long gone, and the players who did enjoy the greifing experience will be gone shortly after.

[Cytopathic 0]

I have no problem with bandits, I love playing with my mate and getting shoved into the forests early on to scavenge.

Recently we were forced to enter Chern to get our hands on some blood as I was very low close to passing out repeatedly.

So when we got there we spent half an hour scouting the city with binoculars, ensuring we knew the positions of both the bandits and the looters.

I publicly announced our intention to enter the city from the west hand road, then crawled in from the south.

All went swimmingly until I entered the TEC building and got shot in the leg by a bloke with a shotgun, long story short I killed him, because he shot me first i counted as a bandit kill.

This person imediatl logged off, I then realized this was a person i helped 5 hours ago when we both spawned.

I lamented my kill, then realized his 4 or so friends are now hunting me, I refuse to change my name and defend my actions.

The point I a trying to make is PvP makes this game tense for me, exploring the centre with a single mate is fun but knowing that we have to hit up a hospital sooner or later is terrifying, it's a beautiful feeling I rarely get in games any more.

[junkyarddog 4]

Losing is FUN.

Alright. Lets pretend there's no pvp, or exclusively consensual pvp. What is left? A mindless, boring quest to collect the best gear and just sit on it? We already have players server hopping and camping airfields with their top of the line sniper rifles and NVGs who refuse to move for days.

What else is left? Oh right, zombies. AI in general is relatively piss poor compared to actual players. AI in Arma is REALLY rubbish. But it's the best we got. But what's best? Half a dozen to a dozen zombies who are only really a threat because they sprint at you like Kenyans on coke and zigzag like they defy all laws of motion? And even then they can't hurt you if you run away from them.

Would you really play an empty shell of a mod like that?

I have been cursed with the bandit skin.

I spent a solid hour solid snaking my way in Elektro in the pitch blackness of night, paranoid of the dozen players who were running around, rampaging through the houses, as the roar of gunfire echoed from the centre of town the entire time. Completely naked 'cept for a Makarov and my trusty A.L.I.C.E, I slipped from corner to corner, avoiding detection from the unwanted masses, as I intently grabbed a car wheel, and stuffed it into my backpack like some kind of fetishist wheel ninja, one after another, after another. As I slithered from the shack to the open road, a man stumbled right upon me.

The man's face was covered by a turban of some kind, for reasons unknown, and he brandished a Winchester in his hands. Fight or flight kicked in, and I took no chances. Eight bullets left my chamber, and entered this man's body. He panicked, his death was approaching fast, and yet he did not fall. It took mere seconds to reload my rusted Makarov, as I unloaded another full clip at the flailing figure, before it slumped on the ground before me. As my character's exasperated breath and accelerated heartbeat matched my own, I dashed away from the scene of the crime. Not long after, I came upon a message directed at me. It was a pleasant bright green text line, shining against the blackness of my surroundings. 'why u shoot me fkin faget', it read. Unphased, I bid my time before the final step in my plan.

As the hour passed and the moon reared it's face, I hid in a bush, my backpack, my pockets, indeed my very body, filled with wheels, wheels, more wheels, fuel parts, as well as a jerry can. The adrenaline kicked in as I made my move towards my prize. The unsuspecting UAZ, a non functional mechanical mess sitting by the fire station in plain view, gasped as I thrust my newly collected wheels into her axles, again, and again, and again. Satisfied, she let me inside the driver's seat, my seat. The roar her engine made when I twisted the key to the ignition echoed through the dark city, and it began.

Swiftly making our escape, all I could hear were the vultured chirping. 'Car?' 'Car?!' 'CAR!!', they screamed, which was very quickly followed by random gunffire, but it was already far too late. Me and my lady had escaped the clutches of Elektro, catching the vultures by complete surprise.

We rode under the moonlight into the imposing towers of Chernogorsk, lights on and horn blasting, taunting the inhabitants both dead and alive of my prize. This, is mine. You cannot have it, I told myself. The taunting worked, for it took mere minutes for rifle fire to greet us. Thankfully, we escaped unscathed, into the beastly wilderness of Chernarus.

We were joyriding for a good twenty minutes, nothing stopping us 'cept for the occasional blockade of car wrecks and garbage. The undead simply bounced off of my hood, tossed around like bloody ragdolls.

And that was it. There was no more to it. Everything that could have been done, was done. I was starving, thirsty, and my inventory was completely empty. And so, I simply drove to the northwestern airfield. We did not even come to a complete stop before a bullet penetrated my skull, leaving the car still and completely devoid of life.

I had a blast doing this. There was a time investment. There was a demand for skill and patience. Adrenaline was pumping, the senses of sight and sound were alert to the max, and there was much enjoyment to be had. Why? PvP. Other people being able to take away your investment, for any reason they deem fit. You, being able to take away their investment, for any reason you deem fit. Because without these people, you would not be able to produce moments and stories like these. And without pvp, all these stories would be limited to 'we shot zombies, cool. lets play cawadoody now.' And I did not shed a single tear when the inevitable death arrived, even so, I sped it up.

Losing is FUN.

[Freyar 8]

TEXT

I have to ask.. why do you implicitly trust people not to shoot you? It's likely to happen, so why do you ever expose yourself for that option? DC will help this a bit (as I've tried to be nice, but it's certainly bit me in the ass), but in the long run, people are too chaotic to trust unless I know them out-of-game enough.

The game doesn't have much in terms of any form of progression. Equipment, health, and survival time are the milestones at which it seems "pure PvE" players try to measure themselves with while those that don't have a problem shooting someone for defense, or (and there are some that see it this way) just for the hell of it have Equipment, Health, Survival Time, and Murders as well.

Are you looking to build a fortress? Not really feasible right now. You want to craft something? Not really likely to happen either. You have a few ways to play this. Go from place to place scavenging for things that will help you extend that Survival Timer, or try to get decent equipment, and stay that way.

The zombies aren't too interesting-- they're a risk, but they aren't interesting and I'm not too sure that they can manage to be interesting without becoming overpowered and without the possiblity of building better defenses.

Frankly, we'll need to wait and see how the other features are put in first. (Sandbags are a step in that direction.)

[tajin 17]

Losing is FUN.

Aye.

Shooting people out of moving vehicles is also fun. Thats an art I've been practicing since OFP. :cool:

Nice story though. ;)

[Bandit (DayZ) 3]

Everyone's playing your game the wrong way' date=' Turkey. Even Rocket!

[/quote']

I think the problem is the discrepancy between what's advertises on the box and the actual game as it plays out. That confusion and sense of misdirection is why there currently exist two different game definitions in the minds of players who came for the advertised gameplay (post-zombie-apocalypse) versus players who came for the emergent gameplay (griefer/PVP free for all).

What I mean by misdirection are things like the name "DayZ", the whole blood-spattered claw-marked title design, the swirling viral background of the site, the description mentioning infections:

You are one of the few who have survived and now you must search this new wasteland in order to fight for your life against what is left of the indigenous population, now infected with the disease.

Really, if all the intentional misdirection were stopped:

the above would read:

You are one of the few who have survived and now you must search this new wasteland Deathmatch Arena with item spawns in order to fight for your life frags against other opponents and what is left of the indigenous population, now infected with the disease suckers who don't yet realize they're playing just another deathmatch and the griefers who enjoy harvesting their tears due to this confusion.

The whole Zombie theme needs to be turned WAY down and/or dropped completely (does ARMA 2 feature a rabbit theme because rabbits roam its countryside?). The theme and colors should be standard green camo, with say the logo being a criss-crossed pair of rifles, backdrop to a skull. The titling font should be redone into standard military cut-out font or maybe a variation thereof to indicate para/post-military forces.

What's going on at the moment is nothing short of repackaging PR, doing up some artwork in a space theme, calling it "Space Wars", then when the thousands of space-sim fans come pouring in wanting to know where the space simulation part of the game is, you tell them that it's all an experiment and that they're fighting a battle. On Earth. And Earth is in space.

lol what?

[tpenn 9]

Hate to bust your carebear heart' date=' but there's ALOT of people and organizations playing that are only playing to play as if it was a true lawless survival, trust no one, shoot on site, end of the world, never produced before game. Arma II as a game has always been about tactics, avoidance, fire control, UNPREDICTABLE SCENARIOS. Your assessment of the situation is correct and really does not need to be changed.

[/quote']

Then They need to Stop With the Zombie bit

Just stop it, it's a lie, as bad of a lie as calling this a furry fuzzy petting-zoo bunnies mod because it has some rabbits and wildlife running about.

Change the name to Wild Wild Chernarus, tear down the site and rebuild it so it doesn't misconstrue what's going on here, and POOF you'll have no more complaints. Mostly because there'll be no more players, but hey, no more complaints!

The only thing that ever gave credence to this mod was the lure of zombie apocalypse, all the zombie lore fans which has been a huge attraction and even more so with the latest games/movies/series floating about. No problem, we'll go elsewhere, but as long as the game is advertised as such expect there to be incorrect assessment of the goal of this "experiment".

[tpenn 9]

I have to ask.. why do you implicitly trust people not to shoot you? It's likely to happen' date=' so why do you ever expose yourself for that option? DC will help this a bit (as I've tried to be nice, but it's certainly bit me in the ass), but in the long run, people are too chaotic to trust unless I know them out-of-game enough.

[/quote']

Because I play the game like a survival simulation, and not a deathmatch. Beyond psychopaths or anarchists, you're likely to get the same response from anyone: very few people would react in a crisis by shooting or expecting to be shot at first-sight. That's human nature, I'm a human, and when I play simulations, I try to play faithfully, realistically, naturally. (catch me at non-sims though, like Quake or Battlefield, and I'll use almost every trick in the book, real or not)

I've only been pk'd maybe 3 or 4 times, all of them preventable (I saw them first), but I approached them and began conversation knowing very well I could be shot, so how do I put this?

To me, achieving that gritty survival experience, knowing it's just me and some guy I met and here we are entering a town of zombies with no one to get our backs but each other, to me that's worth more than "winning" a thousand times by "HA I SNIPORZ U WIF GUN". I get a sheer high out of the human capability to work cooperatively and effectively in a dire situation given little prior experience (because I know it's as close as I'll ever get to the real thing, in a real situation this is probably what most humans would have to do). When I pick that zombie off from behind my buddy's back and I know he's doing the same for me... it's exhilarating, and of course that feeling of good teamwork can't be had without the potential for bad teamwork and deliquent behaviour, but at the moment neither can it be had with a majority playerbase being the latter. A better balance needs to be found.

It must be sheer masochism I continued this behaviour even knowing deathmatching was on the rise, so that's telling that the game as played by PK'ers is worthless to me; absolutely not worth playing if the only experience I can get is that of killing people and watching out for killers instead of my primary goal being about dealing with zombies in, y'know, the zombie apocalypse.

I've played enough ARMA and FPS that I could adjust tactics and hunt down most any PK'er on the server. But I'm not in desperate need of validation that unless I'm ruining someone else's experience I'm not having fun. I don't find value in mindless/metagame things like spawn camping, or base raping, or gate-camping, or scamming, or bunny-hopping in a milsim, or alt-f4ing ... etc... or PK-ing in a survival sim.

I'll PK all day gladly in Project Reality, but I came here to play the game as it was presented to me and many others: as a zombie survival mod. When I found out that playing the game as anything other than a deathmatch will eventually prevent you from enjoying it as anything else... well simply, I'd rather not play that game.

I've stopped playing for now, I'm not sure if I'll continue. So far I've had rather good luck finding people to co-operate with, but that doesn't matter: watching side-chat I know I can't continue to play like this unless I play completely alone or the gameplay is adjusted so that it again becomes about zombie apocalypse and not a haven for deathmatchers and griefers of those still misled.

[Bandit (DayZ) 3]

I've stopped playing for now' date=' I'm not sure if I'll continue. So far I've had rather good luck finding people to co-operate with, but that doesn't matter: watching side-chat I know I can't continue to play like this unless I play completely alone or the mod changes to fall back in line with the kind of gameplay that attracted me in the first place.

[/quote']

See ya. No need to keep complaining.

[Freyar 8]

Eh.. if you can't deal with the possibility of hostile players, then perhaps this isn't for you. Perhaps you'd be more at home with a system in place that prevents PvP of any kind. Perhaps you want a DIFFERENT EXPERIENCE all together which is not the mod's fault.

I mean, work with me here. I play very defensively. If I don't know you, I'm likely to shoot you. What should I have to overcome, or should I have to consider with a greater concern, when that decision becomes mine?

For all the "I don't want to play a game that has PvP in it" (because that's what you are saying here), there's been no ground given by YOU in this matter.

[tpenn 9]

Firstly, re-read my post, perhaps my fault because I edited or perhaps your fault because reading comprehension. Find the part where I mention I don't want PVP, don't spend too much time on it though.

Secondly I can deal quite well with hostile players, if not avoiding completely, I can probably take the lot of them down. But does that mean I want to play the game on their terms? If I have to result to deathmatching I'd rather not play at all.

If you could ensure 100% you win every firefight by alt-f4-ing or going 3rd person to peek corners would you? And if I tell you that if you disagree well perhaps you'd better play a mod where there is no alt-f4ing or 3rd-person peeking? Or would you voice-up and claim the mod should be adjusted so that these things don't ruin the way the game is played.

So yes, I DO want a different experience, the experience that was here at the beginning, the experience that isn't just another deathmatch mod. And yes, there's a need to continue "complaining" and I'll continue to do so until balance is restored or DayZ is renamed Wild Wild Chernarus and there's no more misrepresenting itself as a zombie survival.

As for providing solutions for balance, well, in a game, that's the easy part. Let's start by having murders increase "Rage", and greater rage attracting zombies at larger distances. Then let's do something about the loot spawns and how ridiculously easy it is to get suited up for the next round of deathmatch. Let's not pretend like finding a solution is the hard part here. Agreeing on what the gameplay is supposed to be and what gameplay lends itself to the better game, that's the hard part.

[Freyar 8]

Secondly I can deal quite well with hostile players' date=' I can probably take the lot of them down, but I don't WANT to if it means turning my gameplay to deathmatching.[/quote']

Meaning "I don't want to shoot people to defend myself." (Seriously, you're taking snipes at someone who's willing to listen if you provide alternatives that don't diminish one side in favor of the other to an unreasonable degree.) If you want people to care, you have to stop throwing the insults and start bringing up suggestions.

I mean, work with me here. I play very defensively. If I don't know you, I'm likely to shoot you. What should I have to overcome, or should I have to consider with a greater concern, when that decision becomes mine?

[tpenn 9]

(Seriously' date=' you're taking snipes at someone who's willing to listen

[/quote']

I'd quote your many snipes on me and others, but like I said I'm not here to deathmatch, game, neither forum.

See my latest edit, I'd love to hear how this is an unacceptable solution:

As for providing solutions for balance, well, in a game, that's the easy part. Let's start by having murders increase "Rage", and greater rage attracting zombies at larger distances. Then let's do something about the loot spawns and how ridiculously easy it is to get suited up for the next round of deathmatch.

It doesn't diminsh PK'ers because, hey let's face it, they don't care about Zerbies anyways, and it only adds more zombie content for everyone else in this, y'know, zombie survival game.

---

I think I'll formalize the suggestion so it's a bit clearer:

Rage:

Every murder increases the Rage of a player (starting at 0) by some factor n. The higher a player's rage the more likely they are to be detected by a Zombie: it increases their visibility on the player and their acoustic tracking. Rage is at minimum when 0 (normal detectability) and will reach some maximum threshold (maximum detection by zombies). It can be treated like humanity where acts of benevolence can affect it, and adjusted with it, or independently (i.e. rage can be impacted greatly and quickly by recent kills but perhaps also fade out more quickly, whereas humanity and being a bandit is more a long-term process).

Optional adjustment: on reaching very high-levels of rage, possibility to trigger a horde spawn nearby. (rationale: this will allow Rage to also apply to players who rarely come in contact with zombies)

1) Doesn't restrict PVP or pass judgement only consequence - you're free to kill whom ever you want however many times. But with every passing kill the consequence is your actions will make you more present in the eyes of the horde.

2) Helps reduce city camping - zombies roam cities, the more easily they are alerted to a bandits presence, the less they can simply sit on loot spawns all day for gear without attracting zombies.

3) Increases zombie content - with zombies playing a more active role in both the PK'er gameplay (more targets to shoot at, that's what they want?) and survival gameplay (alerted hordes indicate possible PKer nearby) the whole mod receives a much-needed injection of more zombie goodness.

[Overbeck (DayZ) 0]

Its the middle of the night, dark, cant see s*** and every one has itchy trigger fingers. You see a silhouette, is that a zombie, bandit or just a survivor. I don't wanna take any chances with this one. Then the options come in to play, Kill him and hope no one else is about or leave him be and hope he doesn't point a gun at me later. Most people shoot.

Such is life in the zone

[Bandit (DayZ) 3]

How about you leave the main cities and find a nice little nook somewhere else. Maybe some friends will help you gaurd it. Seems to work for everyone else who isnt trying to turn this into some arcade game.

[cordleztoaster 5]

The good players will stay and kill new players for supplies.

New players will get the jack and leave, no new players means this mod will die in the bottom.

Im all for PvP i enjoy ganking players.