The PvP Discussion Thread

[captainkush 0]

I have no problem getting killed or killing for that matter if there is some kind of RP or communication involved' date=' randomly killing for the sake of killing just doesnt seem like fun for me.

[/quote']

when was dying ever fun?

if you're out in the open, and you get shot, it's your own fault, buddy.

[Zillo7 0]

For me, the only reason I've been shot so far is because I try to work with others. I ask if the other person is friendly, and they say they are; then when I let my guard down, I get shot. Right now, the mod appears to be PvP + zombies.

There's virtually no reason to not shoot another player on sight. There needs to be some purpose to working with others. Perhaps if something was added to give bonuses to groups of players that solo players won't get(more loot from clearing a town? Where 2 players would get >2x the amount of loot as a single player.This would be tough to implement though...), it'd give a reason for people to work together.

Some of the ideas that others have come up with here would work too, but there needs to be an incentive to work with others, which atm this mod lacks.

[ghost_kage 5]

There's another game that I really enjoy called Project Zomboid. When the game first starts up, before you even get a chance to play, the text reads, "These are the end times... The dead walk the earth... This... is how you died." The fact is, you will die, its just a matter of when and how.

If you accept that every time you start up DayZ, the game is a lot more fun. What's fun about hiding in the wilderness once you've got the right gear? Yeah its satisfying for thirty minutes, maybe even an hour, but eventually you want to fight some zombies, and you want to play with other people. Is it possible that interacting with others could and ultimately will lead to your demise? Yes. But its not like when you respawn you start with nothing, you have more than enough to get started and continue having fun, and within an hour of playtime you'll most likely be right back where you were gear wise.

The PVP element adds a whole new amount of tension and suspense in this game that I haven't found anywhere else. And maybe when that player attempts to kill you and take all of your stuff, you react quick enough and take them down? Now that's fun. Personally, I think the bandit system should be removed, just because it puts players in an awkward position if they happen to be good at defending themselves, and I also think it is an unrealistic aspect of the game. I think it would be cool if we could change our outfits though, and have a little more choice in what we wear, just so that we don't all look the same. And if you get shot in the back by someone you trusted, well you just learned a lesson. When I group up with someone, I always watch them carefully, and generally let them be the 'leader' and be up front. Only people I really trust when I play this are real life friends or people who I've played with before who I know are trust worthy.

No matter what the devs do there are always going to be a-holes who want to ruin the game for other people. Nerfing the system that makes this game unique will just drive away people who aren't trying to ruin the game for others. I think that rather then focusing on the PVP element, they should focus on making the non-PVP elements better and more realistic. The advantage of working as a team should be greater than the benifits for just PVPing to "survive". I think the humanity and bandit system is a step in the right direction, I just don't think its an ultimate fix to the problems. The guys who put this mod together are obviously brilliant, so I have faith they know what they're doing, and this mod is only going to get better as time passes.

Anyways... that's my two cents. :D

[personaljesus69 2]

Quite honestly, the amount of players who complain about the PvP is getting massively abundant and kind of annoying. It's a ZOMBIE APOCALYPSE. People are going to kill each other for food and water. Just because we have a common enemy for once, doesn't mean your stuff should only stay in YOUR bags. I, for one, am a greedy 'ol bastard and kill whatever walks, crawls, or drags itself. I won't lie, yeah, I prey on those less fortunate than I am... But its always survival of the FITTEST. If you're not fit for it, you're going to die.

Even though, I suppose one of the server providers could be nice enough and toss up a whole 'nother server with friendly fire turned OFF. Make it like a... No-PVP server. Just a suggestion.

[zeru 5]

I don't think anyone wants a no-pvp server, but rather a pvp server where there is actual consequence to playing cowardly and reward to playing friendly.

[personaljesus69 2]

Elaborate...

Oh and uh, I think I killed you earlier today by the way. So, your point...?

Shooting a player already kind of has its consequence, and not the just the morality system... The fact you will probably attract zombies by doing so. Can't tell you how many times I've been run off from a fresh kill cause I attracted some zeds.

[Palora 6]

But here are the two main issues:

1) Player killing is a lot easier and will give you more/better items then fighting zombies most of the time. You can easily take out an entire group before they know what hit them, and they will always have decent stuff on them. It shouldn't be like this, engaging other players should be a desperate dangerous move.

2) The point of the game is to have fun surviving, but fun comes with a challenge. I could kill that 'random dude alone by the fire' that doesn't even know i have him in my scope, but how would that be fun for me? I haven't spent any effort in hunting him down, tracking him, or out smarting him, I just bumped into him, and by sheer luck i saw him first and can now kill him easily. It's no skill, it's luck, and luck isn't fun in a game, especially a multiplayer game. The fun for me comes in team work with others, avoiding or fighting the zombies in search for a vague reward and the satisfaction that comes when you successfully avoid, fight the zombies and you get something decent. I don't care if i die, it's a game, it has respawn, just as long as i have fun dieing. Getting mauled by a billion zombies after a wild chase and a last stand is fun, even if i lose the BFG 9000, it was my decision that got me in trouble, the rewards could have been good, the satisfaction of overcoming a might horde would have been phenomenal. Getting shoot randomly with no warning and no chance is not fun, regardless of the fact that i only lost my makarov.

P.S. Josh, there's plenty of food and water, and there are ways to get them that are not boring, like searching for them in the middle of a town, avoiding zombies. But what you appear to want is the ability to kill unsuspecting players because your an asshole and you like griefing. You don't like an equal fight and your afraid of a challenge, most likely because you'd lose badly when faced with both situation.

[ghost_kage 5]

Oh and uh, I think I killed you earlier today by the way. So, your point...?

lol.. :rolleyes:

[zeru 5]

Stuff like ignoring chat, shooting without warning, acting friendly then backstabbing, these are pretty cowardly ways to kill others and you're always rewarded with a lot of items with next to no consequence.

At no point is skill ever used, but rather just desperation and cowardice.

However if you take the time to communicate, give warnings, come to agreements, identify and trade items, etc, you end up with much less reward.

Anyway the bandit system is a small step in the right direction, however it still needs a lot more work to turn this game into its full potential and not just a mere sandbox deathmatch game.

[Freyar 8]

But here are the two main issues:

1) Player killing is a lot easier and will give you more/better items then fighting zombies most of the time. You can easily take out an entire group before they know what hit them' date=' and they will always have decent stuff on them. It shouldn't be like this, engaging other players should be a desperate dangerous move.[/quote']

Taking on a group of co-operating survivors is a desperate and dangerous move if you're not careful. The only advantage a lone bandit would have is the element of surprise and that's just inherently a side effect of survivors being way too liberal with the use of flares and flashlights.

2) The point of the game is to have fun surviving, but fun comes with a challenge. I could kill that 'random dude alone by the fire' that doesn't even know i have him in my scope, but how would that be fun for me? I haven't spent any effort in hunting him down, tracking him, or out smarting him, I just bumped into him, and by sheer luck i saw him first and can now kill him easily. It's no skill, it's luck, and luck isn't fun in a game, especially a multiplayer game.

Spotting a thrown flare or a flashlight in use and figuring out how to intercept without the use of lighting aids yourself, without alerting zombies, without alerting the target, and without alerting other hunters and survivors is all part of the game as well. There can be an element of luck, just as there's an element of luck of running into friendly people. But a lot of any hunting I do (and I do admit, I did deserve my bandit garb) involved hearing or seeing evidence of a survivor and literally tracking him down.

Stuff like ignoring chat' date=' shooting without warning, acting friendly then backstabbing, these are pretty cowardly ways to kill others and you're always rewarded with a lot of items with next to no consequence.

At no point is skill ever used, but rather just desperation and cowardice.[/quote']

Consequence: You become known for such tactics. (I hunt and when I say I'm friendly, I don't have an intention to attack.)

[griffinz 2816]

Stuff like ignoring chat' date=' shooting without warning, acting friendly then backstabbing, these are pretty cowardly ways to kill others and you're always rewarded with a lot of items with next to no consequence.

At no point is skill ever used, but rather just desperation and cowardice.

However if you take the time to communicate, give warnings, come to agreements, identify and trade items, etc, you end up with much less reward.

Anyway the bandit system is a small step in the right direction, however it still needs a lot more work to turn this game into its full potential and not just a mere sandbox deathmatch game.

[/quote']

I wouldn't give warning either if the victim was just going to alt-F4

[Gotrek (DayZ) 1]

PvP is essential and REAL griefing comes only from 2 things : nvg and sniper rifles. Remove those and ppl will think before they pull trigger

[sorophx 25]

Stuff like ignoring chat' date=' shooting without warning, acting friendly then backstabbing, these are pretty cowardly ways to kill others and you're always rewarded with a lot of items with next to no consequence.

[/quote']

man, as if real life wasn't like that already.

the whole point of this mod, in my opinion, is about player interaction. there are other zombie survival games that are single-player or strictly co-op. with higher production values. if I wanted that I'd go play them. but I like Day Z for this feeling of not knowing if the person in front of you is friend or foe. for having to make a decision: shoot him, avoid him, talk to him, trade with him - and live with the consequences.

backstabbing or manhunting is a huge part of it. I, personally, don't hunt other players. I don't find it fun or worthwhile. but the thought itself, that that person across the street could be aiming at my head right now, or that somebody is stalking me - it's worth a lot to me. coupled with the whole "survival" mechanic, and persistance; this is what separates this mod from dozens of other ArmA 2 zombie mods, or even stand-alone zombie games.

now, if the game would keep me informed of who's a PKer, or would gravitate heavily towards rewarding only good deeds, it would lose its charm in my eyes.

I am all for removing the "survivor/bandit" system altogether, and at the same time randomizing the character's appearance at the start of the game, if the pool of accessible models is big enough (and it is in ArmA CO), you'd have a chance of memorizing a certain character's appearance, which would help with identifying PKers

[Jeff (DayZ) 1]

But here are the two main issues:

1) Player killing is a lot easier and will give you more/better items then fighting zombies most of the time. You can easily take out an entire group before they know what hit them' date=' and they will always have decent stuff on them. It shouldn't be like this, engaging other players should be a desperate dangerous move.

2) The point of the game is to have fun surviving, but fun comes with a challenge. I could kill that 'random dude alone by the fire' that doesn't even know i have him in my scope, but how would that be fun for me? I haven't spent any effort in hunting him down, tracking him, or out smarting him, I just bumped into him, and by sheer luck i saw him first and can now kill him easily. It's no skill, it's luck, and luck isn't fun in a game, especially a multiplayer game. The fun for me comes in team work with others, avoiding or fighting the zombies in search for a vague reward and the satisfaction that comes when you successfully avoid, fight the zombies and you get something decent. I don't care if i die, it's a game, it has respawn, just as long as i have fun dieing. Getting mauled by a billion zombies after a wild chase and a last stand is fun, even if i lose the BFG 9000, it was my decision that got me in trouble, the rewards could have been good, the satisfaction of overcoming a might horde would have been phenomenal. Getting shoot randomly with no warning and no chance is not fun, regardless of the fact that i only lost my makarov.

[/quote']

No.

You are wrong.

End of story.

The fact of the matter is that this game is built on being survival in a zombie death world. Here's a hint, nobody is your friend. There is no cowardice, or "bad ways of playing" because there are no social rules. You want to live, you play smarter. They want to kill you, they play smarter. The fact of the matter is you have stuff they can use and it's the end of the damn world. If you think for ONE split second that anybody would even bother yelling the word friendly in an IRL situation, you're delusional. People need to get reputations built up as well.

People are going to kill you for your stuff, even if it's just a mak mag.

[zeru 5]

the whole point of this mod' date=' in my opinion, is about player interaction.

[/quote']

Yeah that's exactly what I want to see more of, some actual player interaction and not just 1 shot kills thrown around during the first 2 seconds of noticing a player.

Also people gotta stop treating the playerbase as black and white over this issue. I really doubt anyone here wants this to be non-pvp/co-op only, as there are games that do that better (eg L4D). Instead we just want a smoother balance between co-op, skillful pvp, and skilless pvp. Currently that balance veers almost completely to skilless pvp.

[griffinz 2816]

I think the PvP will be less rampant once the Direct Comms channel is fixed. No communication, no trust

[savini 587]

imo, the pvp as it stands now is a good thing. It forces players into the precarious steps of earning trust among those around. Believe me, I hate getting popped for being within someones sights, but once you get out of the hell hole of cherno/elektro, and you know how to interact with the new breed of people, you'll live a lot longer. Provided you know how to manage your ammo and food supply.

I always scout a town before entering. Sometimes for 20 minutes, just to make sure noone is around. If I see someone I try to identify them and call out. If I can't identify someone I'll be vague about their whereabouts and try to elicit a response. If I get no answer I'll try to avoid contact, or head a different direction. If I get a response I'll fish for clues as to their intent. You can never be to careful.

Basically, talking to people in game is like playing poker. You have to bluff and sometimes you have to fold, and sometimes you'll win. It makes for a new and interesting dynamic with player interaction.

That's just me though.

[sorophx 25]

frankly, I don't trust a person even if he's shouting "FRIENDLY", have been killed in a situation like this. if the person isn't pointing his gun at me, minds his own business, I won't shoot. but saying "friendly" in chat has no weight with me

[griffinz 2816]

The best solution Ive found is getting IRL mates on to the mod, and playing with them.

[sorophx 25]

and checking this link from time to time ;)

http://dayzmod.com/leader/murders.php

[tpenn 9]

This game is pretty much a social experiment.

If you turn off PvP in DayZ' date=' you might get a bit of a shock from what other people do in a real Zombie Apocalypse.

...just sayin'

[/quote']

Actually we already survived quite a lot of apocalypses, the entire business of evolution ... well I mean I can imagine taking on a 6ft zombie who wants to eat you, I can't imagine how the fuck we survived taking on 50ft creatures that want to eat you.

But that's what we do in survival situations, humans are known to use extensive teamwork in a crisis (and occasionally bash each others' skulls in, note: occasionally), so if that's not happening in your survival "simulation" either a) you're not properly simulating a survival situation or, b) you're survivors aren't human (possibly c) the situation does not permit teamwork, but again if that's the case then I strongly recommend revisiting a.)

Josh' pid='3406' dateline='1335600376']

It's a ZOMBIE APOCALYPSE. People are going to kill each other for food and water.

I' date=' for one, am a greedy 'ol bastard and kill whatever walks, crawls, or drags itself. I won't lie, yeah, I prey on those less fortunate than I am...

[/quote']

See how you did that there, contradict yourself? Yeah, that about sums up most PKer arguments when they try to explain they're surviving for food and water with a back pack full of both along with ammo they'll use to take out the player who has less of all three, but of course they won't need any of what he has anyways.

If the loot spawns are revisited, I can see maybe a few small minority cases where PVP is for surviving (that would make it about the right balance of risk vs reward for PVP), but as-is now the overwhelming majority of PVPers aren't doing it to survive, but just to grief.

[griffinz 2816]

Actually we already survived quite a lot of apocalypses' date=' the entire business of evolution ... well I mean I can imagine taking on a 6ft zombie who wants to eat you, I can't imagine how the fuck we survived taking on 50ft creatures that want to eat you.

But that's what we do in survival situations, humans are known to use extensive teamwork in a crisis (and occasionally bash each others' skulls in, note: [u']occasionally), so if that's not happening in your survival "simulation" either a) you're not properly simulating a survival situation or, b) you're survivors aren't human (possibly c) the situation does not permit teamwork, but again if that's the case then I strongly recommend revisiting a.)

What's your source of information for this? Tribes have been killing tribes since the dawn of time. "Tribes" have already evolved in DayZ, and they kill others.

I think it's fantastic what's unfolding here in DayZ. It's like a sped-up version of the formation of civilization. It's too bad there isn't a building function, or farming/harvesting function...if there was, we would see each tribe develop in to a working community. Maybe one day...

I won't kill others to acquire their possessions, I will kill them to protect my own.

[tpenn 9]

What's your source of information for this?

The fact that you, we exist and are still alive?

And "tribes" (read: "teamwork") isn't what's happening at all right now; the majority of PVP is a free for all. Even if teamwork PVP ever gains traction over random PKing (and I doubt it since there is no honor among griefers), it shouldn't take precedence over co-op behavior because it isn't a team deathmatch mod.

It's a sped-up version of civilization, sure... a civilization that would have formed if the mechanics of evolution favored asshats. Fortunately for us, it didn't; unfortunately for the game's (current) mechanics, it does.

[griffinz 2816]

What's your source of information for this?

The fact that you're still alive. And Tribes (read: Teamwork) isn't what's happening at all right now

Im in a tribe of 3 :P

[Difecti 11]

I tend to go round in a group of 4-6 people, depending who's on the Mumble server.