Build 1.7.2 Rolling Update

[Reaps 22]

Further Testing 1.7.2

I'm not experiencing half as many issues as a lot on here.

- Zombies:

are inconsistent. but... that was the plan. I've had a few occasions where they've seen me through a building (usually when you're on the second floor) and a couple that have aggroed from 100-150 meters. But nothing crazy. I can still LoS zombies for the most part. Again the occasional glitch where a zombie with its back to me will run towards me, although the sound indicator is zeroed. Nothing really different from the 1.7.1.5 patch. Just have to use the surroundings to your advantage. (although some of this isn't affecting the vision meter correctly. Like tree lines/bushes/shadows.)

It's tougher on the fresh starting player. But once you have a hatchet. You're set. Zombies are walking indoors as always (for me).

- Loot

Is very server dependent. I don;t understand why, it's not a case of its all been looted. Some servers will literally have no spawns. (empty tins etc etc) where others will have a much MUCH more varied range of items. As i believe it was intended. For example. 1.7.1.5 supermarkets were yielding rediculous amounts of watches, occasional matches and maps etc. but generally (for me atleast! I know, its random) a lot of duplicated items.

On a "good" 1.7.2 server i managed to get a Lee Enfield, M1911, Matches, Water bottles, Food, Alice Pack, Hunting Knife, Compass. The works. The only thing i didn't get from there was a toolbox, and hatchet. But i found them near Elektro power plant. Bonus.

- Gameplay

Despite the obvious exploit (which i'll quote again in a page or 2! ;) ) I'm finding the games actually running better. I'm not having these loading issues that a lot seem to be having. I'm getting into servers almost every time. More so than on 1.7.1.5. When I get in there, my personal experience is a good one. Zombies react quicker, I've experienced the gun through the chest of close zombies. but that's not really game breaking. It seems to me like the zombies are some how pathing slightly better too. When it's working properly. sometimes they do run the opposite way, and LoS themselves. Which is nice.

- The de-syncs

They're back and about as frequent as the 1.7.1 patch on release. Although some servers are, again, a LOT better than others. Played for about 2 hours lastnight with no desync on US566. It seems to have a lot to do with what beta version you are running also. I have a friend that was on 94444, he never desynched to me at all. the other was on the same patch as me and he seems to desync. I've come across a lot of Survivors and never noticed any sort of running on the spot (in the game time lastnight) But the previous night was horrific. The game was not playable as a goup. But lone wolfing was absolutely fine.

A lot of the errors seem to be server dependent but i'm not entirely sure why. As one host posted earlier in the thread. His server seems to use 10-20% more CPU on load. So perhaps some servers have more headroom than others, thus the sync issues are less on them? Could possibly be the answer.

Exploits / Bugs

*Items too easy to Dupe

*Still able to DC to avoid PVP / Death / Zombies

*Can still fool M1911 / Revolver ammo into refilling Clip

*Can still play 1.7.2 servers without upgrading from 1.7.1.5 (or earlier) - THIS IS A MAJOR PROBLEM see Page 46 / 62 for the reason why (Will repost)

*Crashing out the game and/or server restarts will wipe progress to last log in point (Possible attempt to fix the End Process DC'ers?)

*Some bodies are still despawning on death, leaving nothing but flies. This is greatly reduced compared to 1.7.1.5 but still there.(Not due to DC'ers as it was MY body - i was testing it with a friend)

*1 in 10 animals (so far) have rotted into the ground before i had the chance to gut them, or while i was gutting them.

TL:DR

1.7.2 is a great step in the right direction and a lot of/severity of the issues seem to be server dependent.

[Reaps 22]

They were being rather loud and that should have been my clue they were not alone. However, I hit the player twice with the lee enfield (hey, it's all i had). i saw two animations happen at once. the body falling down dead, and a second body splitting from the dead body and running away.

Earlier today, I ran into a player in vybor, and after a small battle, i managed to live and they didn't. On the killing shot, saw the same thing again. killed the player (see the message from server of friendly fire) and still saw a doppleganger go running away. about 3 minutes later, as my friend and i were scavenging the poor man, he literally appeared standing in front of us and then fell over passed out. we dispatched the player not realizing it was the same guy until we started scavenging him. basically we got double the loot. (Server: US 467 - I am in EST)

So not sure what is happening, but there is a sort of dysynch during pvp that at death, splits the player as i have seen it.

This is kinda interesting to me, because when you exploit the game (see page 46 / 62(ish)) It acts this way. I'm not saying for 100% this is whats going on but....

When i've been testing it with a friend. He's not updated, stuck with 1.7.1.5 playing on 1.7.2. If he kills someone, or they kill him. There's the server message. If i kill my other friend, who is running 1.7.2 with me. We just get the "xxx Was Killed" message. This to me is a good indication of who has, and who hasn't updated.

The other thing to look out for is when someone running an older version is killed. They have no flies buzzing around their body. Tested multiple times. Nothing. That may be due to the fact that they don't actually die. They get ported to the debug forests where you then have to manually abort -> Disconnect -> Connect. At which point they go back to their last loading location, with the exact same kit.

Thing that makes it so i'm not 100% sure this was the case for you is, he spawned right on his body. Incapped. That sounds more like someone whos triend to pull the plug. You've seen the desync/but the games somehow still registered his death. Without him getting it registered on the hive. Odd one indeed. I'll do a little testing later and see if i can replicate it.

If there were no flies though - He was just running version 1.7.1.5.

[ODoyleRulez 195]

More issues I ran across.

Backpacks taken from corpses revert to items being whatever was in it at time of looting. Hours after taking it, or at time of relog.

Upstairs in barns instant death, could be involved with terrible desyncing after this patch. This was a non skin associated problem. Went up stairs and lost like 4k blood from nothing. Healed and ate... picked up a lumber pile to make a fire. walked past the hay pile and instantly died.

Water bottles not always working. Drank them, thirst icon goes green. Log off for the night and relog later to find it is seconds from blinking red.. yet water bottle still used.

No loot in tree stands or loot spawning broken by desyncing. (tested on 18 stands).. Not sure it is desync, considering the zombies spawn under the stand like they are being poured out of a cup. Looks stupid as hell.

Animal behavior as broken as ever.

Players rubberbanding across the map constantly.. I've never had lag issues before (all servers played at posted 15-50 ping like always). At least not since a much much earlier build. Netcode is fucked from what I have seen.

Hatchets still need reloading.. still funny as hell.

Crowbars do not work. You can hold it like normal.. but you can not swing. They were crap before, but now are actually physically useless lol.

Hatchets still taking up most industrial spawn locations.

I think that covers it for today.

[Goodlad118 0]

Is the "loading" error fixed when you go on servers, i havnt played the game yet because of this, it goes black and the loading bar stays forever!

[cyanyde 165]

I'm glad you are pretty sure the devs are aware.

Are you really that narrow minded that you think i'm the first one to achieve this?

<snip>

Nope, never said that.. I only said you're making it worse.

Just because people can already do it, doesn't mean that *everyone* should be doing it.

Go ahead, keep posting exploits.. The bandits and pvp'ers will be sure to use it.

I'll stick with 1.2.7.1 where the people who are actually interested in testing the game are..

I get that you want the issue fixed, but like I said. Pretty sure the devs are aware.. can't say I know that for sure, because I don't. But I would be very surprised if they aren't.

Most of the other updates had a version check, it's possible it got overlooked this time around, but it's pretty likely that the final version of the mod/game will have a white-list of files.

But nice job ranting about it in the forums.. you do realize there's a bug tracker for stuff like that, don't you?

https://dev-heaven.n...s/dayz/activity ;)

edit: it's too bad you're being so stubborn about the exploit thing.. most of your other feedback has been pretty useful and relevant. You just need to use more discretion about stuff like that.. that was all I was trying to say.

Edited July 12, 2012 by Cyanyde

[mariush 50]

Hatchets still need reloading.. still funny as hell.

Crowbars do not work. You can hold it like normal.. but you can not swing. They were crap before, but now are actually physically useless lol.

Hatchets still taking up most industrial spawn locations.

I think that covers it for today.

There's another issue probably known regarding crowbar... If you have a hatchet equipped as primary weapon and you TAKE a crowbar, you get the crowbar text and its "ammo" on top corner but still the hatchet in hands. Then if you click on Drop on the hatchet in the inventory, crowbar drops (or disappears) , hatchet still in inventory in the primary weapon... it's like having crowbar stacked over the hatchet in the primary slot.

I don't actually find its use, the crowbar... the hatchet at least gets wood... maybe the crowbar could be used to unlock crates in warehouses, where you might get binoculars or maybe ammo boxes...

[cyanyde 165]

There's another issue probably known regarding crowbar... If you have a hatchet equipped as primary weapon and you TAKE a crowbar, you get the crowbar text and its "ammo" on top corner but still the hatchet in hands. Then if you click on Drop on the hatchet in the inventory, crowbar drops (or disappears) , hatchet still in inventory in the primary weapon... it's like having crowbar stacked over the hatchet in the primary slot.

I don't actually find its use, the crowbar... the hatchet at least gets wood... maybe the crowbar could be used to unlock crates in warehouses, where you might get binoculars or maybe ammo boxes...

I was thinking the hunting knife could replace the crowbar, it would take the sidearm slot and could double as a melee weapon.

That way, we would have 2 melee weapons and they would both have 2 uses.

[Sonos 3]

Good: Performance increased - its working great good job.

Bad: Infected are too hard, senses are way too high, i like the increase in difficulty but this was overkill.

[Reaps 22]

Nope, never said that.. I only said you're making it worse.

Just because people can already do it, doesn't mean that *everyone* should be doing it.

Go ahead, keep posting exploits.. The bandits and pvp'ers will be sure to use it.

I'll stick with 1.2.7.1 where the people who are actually interested in testing the game are..

I get that you want the issue fixed, but like I said. Pretty sure the devs are aware.. can't say I know that for sure, because I don't. But I would be very surprised if they aren't.

Most of the other updates had a version check, it's possible it got overlooked this time around, but it's pretty likely that the final version of the mod/game will have a white-list of files.

But nice job ranting about it in the forums.. you do realize there's a bug tracker for stuff like that, don't you?

https://dev-heaven.n...s/dayz/activity ;)

Thanks for the link, Yup I realise there is a bug tracker, but the bug tracker is bugged for me I'm still not receiving the confirmation email to actually confirm registration. I've tried several times. Hence why the spamming has commenced.

As for the version check. It's still there. It's just useless. It gives the watermark of hey, you're running the wrong version but does nothing to stop you going mental and exploiting the game. It never has. I to am running 1.7.2.1 and THAT has a solid version check / black screen when you try join another server running a different version. I stated this on page 62 though. I understand you don't like the fact that I'm screaming from the rafters. But you have to agree, it isn't something that can just be overlooked. Leaving a few small groups of people to abuse this, and ruin other peoples experiences is not the right thing to do either.

Since no dev has mentioned "yeah we're on it" and i have no other way of making it known to them save PM's which would just get bogged under. This is the lesser of the evils. Feel free to pass my concerns over onto the dev-heaven site if you are indeed registered. Many people would be grateful. While a select few will want to slaughter you.

An example of what we were able to do last night is as follows.

1)Follow random people back to camps, around Major towns / loot spots. Invisible (Camo & Ghillie suits worked).

2)Loot items / drop items / Assist survivors by putting stuff in peoples bags. (dumped NVG and M107 in to some lucky chaps bag!)

3)Assist people when the zombies were overwhelming them - without them ever knowing. Casper really is a friendly ghost.

4)Play for 2+ hours without the need to consume food/water/painkillers/morphine Simply because Zeds do not aggro.

5)Play with No desync issues what so ever. Occasional server crash but strange how we didn't desync to one another.

What we could have easily done:

1) Follow people to their camps. Loot / destroy everything AND kill them

2) Loot players corpses and/or hide them

3)Removed Clothing (Ghillie / Camo) and cared some poor survivor senseless as without that on they see us.

4)Disconnect -> Reconnect to create a new "save" point for location + gear and have a CoD style fight in a major town. Spawning in our last safe location upon death.

Disclaimer: This is in a dedicated 1.7.2 server, we killed within our group ONLY - No innocent survivors were hurt in the exploration of this exploit.... YET

Again to save me reposting I advise a member of the Dev team to check out our initial findings on Page 42 of this thread. Then Updated findings on page 62

For anyone thinking ahh reaps you're just an exploiter. I'm running the experimental build (1.7.1.2) 90% of the time checking for improvements / bugs. When friends are on we're now looking for bugs vs older builds into new builds. The mod holds no appeal knowing how easy it is to never fear death and how easily exploitable it is. I WANT this loophole closed. So I can get back to enjoying the game I've grown heavily addicted to like all of you! :D

The coding is already in the game to shut 99% of this exploit out. it just needs to be a black screen saying you are running the incorrect version rather than the watermarked warning we get right now. This wont stop the duplicating of the items. As groups that are organised will just run to the area of the person exploiting, and when he respawns, they loot. He doesn't need to see the screen to be able to do that. However, it WILL stop that same chap following you invisible. As well as being able to kill you. without you having somewhat of a chance.

[vesmo 21]

-Okay, tested the zombie behaviour by stealthing through a couple of small towns. Loving it so far, you can evade aggro if you keep low (as in prone when in their LoS).

-Zombie hearing seems much lower than before, and you can actually make quick rushes across fields as long as you ensure no zombie sees you, and if one comes from over the hill, you just hit the deck. Makes for some very interesting approaches.

-Tested with my revolver to see how they react to gunshots. Not very well, only aggroed zombies from very close to me. I think this is okay for the time being seeing as people are adapting to this new behaviour model and are bound to get aggros. Though could get bumped a bit higher

-Visibility seems to be somewhat inconsistent. When you are against the outer wall of a building, sometimes you get a huge decrease in visibility, sometimes you don't. Seems to have something to do whether you are on the shadowy side or not, but seems to also vary between buildings (would be nice if was the same for every type of building)

-Same goes for inside houses, sometimes your visibility goes really low, sometimes it doesn't. Got aggroed when I peeked through the door, consistency in a future patch would be a great addition.

-Breaking LoS with zeds is too easy, if you get some after you all you need to do is run through a couple of pine trees, go prone and they won't find you. I can see this being exploited by just running through the area you want to loot and then losing the zeds and circling back. I like that you can lose them, but it's too easy at the moment.

Keep up the great work!

[Reaps 22]

I was thinking the hunting knife could replace the crowbar, it would take the sidearm slot and could double as a melee weapon.

That way, we would have 2 melee weapons and they would both have 2 uses.

I believe the reason this has not happened yet is due to the arma restrictions of the animations / models allowed as a secondary item. I'm sure if it's possible a little further down the line, this will be implemented. It makes perfect sense and dual purpose items look like they'll make more of an appearance.

[cyanyde 165]

I to am running 1.7.2.1 and THAT has a solid version check / black screen when you try join another server running a different version.

Then I would have to say it is already fixed in the next hot-fix..

It's not like they can go back and change what is in 1.7.2, they just need to mass release the hotfix and the problem is solved.

Like I said in my edit to the post you replied to, The majority of your feedback is great, just try to use some discretion when reporting exploits.. do you really want to be the one to give griefers something like this to use on regular players?

As for the issues you're having with the bug tracker, I recommend pm'ing someone about that.. with the amount of bug reports and useful stuff that you've been posting, you need to be able to get that working.

I'll copy/paste the info you reported and give you credit for now. I'm not sure who the correct person to pm would be, but if you pm one of the mods, I'm sure they can point you in the right direction.

Edited July 12, 2012 by Cyanyde

[Bosk 0]

i still have the loading error.

after 1.7.2 i could play eaxctly one session.

every day since that i am stuck at the black screen with the word "loading" forever...

i am a ARMA X user. maybe i should buy a new copy via steam.

i think if it isn't fixed in a week, i will invest some more euros

(it's worth the money!definitly!)

[Reaps 22]

Then I would have to say it is already fixed in the next hot-fix..

It's not like they can go back and change what is in 1.7.2, they just need to mass release the hotfix and the problem is solved.

Sorry i didn't see your edit. As for it already being fixed. I was hopeful of that. But it's not. I somehow managed to load in to a 1.7.2.1 server as 1.7.5.1 and i don;t have the black screen with error. I just have the same old watermark.

So they have the coding in place, and almost the solution. But it's only set for people with a newer version trying to play on older servers. Not the other way around. But thats interesting, perhaps that was an issue for the devs and duping too.

Time will tell.

[cyanyde 165]

Sorry i didn't see your edit. As for it already being fixed. I was hopeful of that. But it's not. I somehow managed to load in to a 1.7.2.1 server as 1.7.5.1 and i don;t have the black screen with error. I just have the same old watermark.

So they have the coding in place, and almost the solution. But it's only set for people with a newer version trying to play on older servers. Not the other way around. But thats interesting, perhaps that was an issue for the devs and duping too.

Time will tell.

Ok, I posted it in the bug tracker and left a note about your issues with registering for the site.

As I said, I hope you get that sorted because the tracker would benefit from the stuff you've been posting, and there's no fear of it getting lost in pages and pages of rants and complaints about lost gear because each issue gets assigned a specific incident number. :)

(yours is #36636)

I do understand your reasoning behind posting it publicly, but the best way to handle stuff like that in the future is to pm a dev instead of making the exploit common knowledge. I know for a fact that they appreciate the discretion. Griff thanked me for exactly that when I pm'd him about an ammo exploit a while back.

Edited July 12, 2012 by Cyanyde

[sikosgprez 0]

-Okay, tested the zombie behaviour by stealthing through a couple of small towns. Loving it so far, you can evade aggro if you keep low (as in prone when in their LoS).

-Zombie hearing seems much lower than before, and you can actually make quick rushes across fields as long as you ensure no zombie sees you, and if one comes from over the hill, you just hit the deck. Makes for some very interesting approaches.

-Tested with my revolver to see how they react to gunshots. Not very well, only aggroed zombies from very close to me. I think this is okay for the time being seeing as people are adapting to this new behaviour model and are bound to get aggros. Though could get bumped a bit higher

-Visibility seems to be somewhat inconsistent. When you are against the outer wall of a building, sometimes you get a huge decrease in visibility, sometimes you don't. Seems to have something to do whether you are on the shadowy side or not, but seems to also vary between buildings (would be nice if was the same for every type of building)

-Same goes for inside houses, sometimes your visibility goes really low, sometimes it doesn't. Got aggroed when I peeked through the door, consistency in a future patch would be a great addition.

-Breaking LoS with zeds is too easy, if you get some after you all you need to do is run through a couple of pine trees, go prone and they won't find you. I can see this being exploited by just running through the area you want to loot and then losing the zeds and circling back. I like that you can lose them, but it's too easy at the moment.

Keep up the great work!

What game are you playing? This certainly does not sound like DayZ.

[vesmo 21]

What game are you playing? This certainly does not sound like DayZ.

That's the game bro :)

[Reaps 22]

Ok, I posted it in the bug tracker and left a note about your issues with registering for the site.

As I said, I hope you get that sorted because the tracker would benefit from the stuff you've been posting, and there's no fear of it getting lost in pages and pages of rants and complaints about lost gear because each issue gets assigned a specific incident number. :)

(yours is #36636)

I'll keep an eye on it. and if it's not acknowledged by page 70 i'll spam more ;)

On a serious note. Thank you its greatly appreciated - now here's hoping they add a fix for it to 1.7.2.1 and all future versions.

[DaN1k 0]

Hi guy's i not know where me sayng my problem (I'm russian and bad speack english sorry) I wanna closed RU 9 server becouse i'm and my freand killed dude of the krasnostv and we taket M107 + M9 SD e.t.c (We killed admin in RU 9) so took about 5 minutes server dead we reconnectid this server and i not f@ckIn* bilvie that all our subjects disappeared, we had two M107 and two range-finding and other little things pissed away all the shame = (

1 day after the incident people started to kill the admin since someone stole his URAL if not mistaken was the nickname administrator (Mr.X)

All understand my massage ? :D

Pls closed RU 9

[modezt 5]

DaN1k

you need evidence. nobody will ban servers just because you say so.

and when you'll have something solid post in a proper section of the forum.

[puppetmaster11 229]

How many pages will this go before the hot fix ... i guess 142

[tickle_me_jesus 37]

How about a small warning on the page that the latest ARMA 2 BETA patch isn't compatible with DayZ! Latest patch will upgrade your arma 2 to version 1.61 instead of 1.60

Not a moot point since we are all enforced the BETA patch since 1.72

[Bridude 2]

This is indeed only fixable by having people start fresh, as 95% of the causes are people disconnecting, be it in shock, being shot at, having zombie aggro. So I have no problems making people play again, but I'm not looking at gear as it will also make every alt-f4 exploiter have a good time.

I tried to take a consolidated update from our group. We have a pretty big group and most of us spend a lot of time playing. this is based off mumble and our forums. Hope it helps.

Changelog:

* [FIXED] Infected hear perfectly through objects (noise reduced by 50% through an object)

Working as intended for the most part but it still seems like there’s that one zombie who had bionic hearing

* [FIXED] Animal bodies despawn way too fast (now despawn automatically after 2 minutes)

Working as intended

* [FIXED] Corrupted update data causes people to spawn in debug forest (now will not save corrupted position data)

Not fixed. Several people in our group randomly spawned in debug forest. We can’t seem find any identifying factors that make it happen

* [FIXED] States where animal might stop walking around (now should walk around more)

Working as intended

* [FIXED] Animal AI routines consuming large amounts of FPS (now in line with Infected AI routines, reduced FPS usage)

Could not verify

* [NEW] Player Syncing system replaced (increased performance and ammo quantity tracking)

We did notice while riding/driving that we did not desync from the driver like we did previously.

* [FIXED] Error reports are almost invisible (has now been fixed)

Working as intended

* [FIXED] Daylight calculations causing slight FPS issue

Day/night time are not syncing correctly between players. Some player see total darkness while others see daylight.

* [NEW] Visibility now smoothly alters based on sun, moon, cloud, rain, and fog state

Seems to work except for the sync issue noted above

* [NEW] Aubility now dampened in rain and increased by fog

Rain does not seem to affect zombie agro.

* [FIXED] Object cleanup causing significant (huge) performance issue on servers (reduced by up to 50%, means more players + zombies possible)

None of us experienced any big performance increases. FPS is greatly reduced when in bigger towns like elektro/Cherno

* [FIXED] Use of "allMissionObjects" causing performance issue on clients (new engine command "entities" used to improve FPS on clients)

Did not notice any performance improvements

* [FIXED] Too easy to break legs due to infected (reduced probability of leg damage, reduced amount of leg damage)

Working as intended

* [FIXED] Inspection of dead bodies does not work (fix only applies with ArmA2 Beta 94033 and above)

We never experienced this problem before, only the disappearing bodies.

* [NEW] Exponent driven probability introduced into visibility calculation

As many people have already noted Zombie agrro is wildly inconsistent and they aggro from way too far out. Like 200m in some cases. There’s also a problem when someone logs out and logs back in the zombie count almost doubles and the loot disappears.

* [FIXED] Hatchet/Crowbar requires reloading ( https://dev-heaven.net/issues/34903 )

Seems to be fixed

* [FIXED] Unlimited Wire fence/Sandbag/Tank Trap Bug ( https://dev-heaven.net/issues/34283 )

Never experienced this before or after

* [FIXED] Duplication Exploit on object pickup ( https://dev-heaven.net/issues/34031 )

While this accidental duping may have been fixed the intentional duping still exists.

* [FIXED] Not full magazines disappear when you reconnect ( https://dev-heaven.net/issues/33998 )

Definitely not fixed. Still losing clips when less than half full.

* [FIXED] Dead bodies still have the heart beat for low humanity ( https://dev-heaven.net/issues/35050 )

Could not verify, we never noticed this in the past.

* [NEW] Set Bear Traps that break player and infected legs, kills animals, when activated

We have yet to see a trap loot or even deployed. You sure you guys put these in the game?

* [NEW] Authentication process streamlined with new ArmA2 Beta commands (publicVariableServer and publicVariableClient)

Not sure how to check this

* [NEW] Authentication for duplicate IDs supportive of the new beta patch (ArmAX users)

Not sure how to check this either

[DaN1k 0]

DaN1k

you need evidence. nobody will ban servers just because you say so.

and when you'll have something solid post in a proper section of the forum.

So...shit i not see future So now i'm most playng server ru 9 on the FRAPS ?

[mariush 50]

So...shit i not see future So now i'm most playng server ru 9 on the FRAPS ?

You need pictures or movies showing admins doing bad things, otherwise it's just "hearsay".

The sniper weapon could have dissapeared when you connected due to this 1.7.2 version being too aggressive with the anti cheat stuff - it's known some sniper weapons get removed when you connect to a server. I lost a sniper gun I took out of a bus' gear and put it on my backpack - when I reconnected to the server the backpack was without the sniper gun.

Server getting closed and then started again could be a coincidence - it may restart regularly every few hours, or administrator may have restarted it to install arma2 patch or something else.