More shotgun ammo types

[SirIzoc 2]

Hello.
I have been playing Dayz since 2014 and i'm still feel nostalgic towards that oldschool dayz pvp game-play when most of the people were running with sks and mosins (because there were only weapons at the time except double barrel izh and ect.). 
As with new patches we see more interest towards automatic weapons i have a suggestion to make which may satisfy some slow fights loving people like me. 
Game should contain more ammo types for shotguns ! 
Idea is that there is already good assortment of shotguns in the game, but there is only 3 different ammunition types:
rubber slugs,
buckshot,
slugs.
But IRL shotgun ammunition have much many ammo types, like birdshot, different type of slugs, fragmentation slugs, slugs from lead, or slugs from brass or steel which are very good at penetrating armor in short distances.
Idea is that when your character is headed towards endgame, usually shotguns like BK's are dropped of necessity of picking up better bigger guns. But if there would be bigger variation on shotgun ammo and some of it would be more 'military' grade like high penetration brass slugs or some coper fragmentation slugs it would maybe introduce some new game play of shotguns to dayz.
Maybe even some more modification for shotguns would be fun.  
For example there could be lootable 'rifled' barrels for shotguns which you could interchange for bk-133 which would increase accuracy for slugs or rifled chokes for also increasing accuracy. Maybe more attatchments etc. 
What's exciting that shotguns like bk-133 can be life long weapon viable for starters (with current ammunition in game like rubber slugs/buckshot) and also for late game players (with upgrades like rifled choke and high penetration slugs, maybe some sights like 1.5x). 
A weapon which you could grow together with your character.

quick table to visualize the idea
                                                              early game --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------> late game
type                                                    Rubber slugs                |        Bridshot                               |      buck shot                  |        slug                   |       fragmentation slug                               |    High penetration slug
example                                         Not much damage,         |     Like buckshot,                        |  current buck shot        |  current slug,           |   shoots 1 projectile like slug                     |  applies bleed, penetrates armor
                                                        but good for knock out   |    but more rounds per              | good all around for      |  good damage         | which in theory fragments on impact.     |  acts like mosin round in short range
                                                                                                    |    shot with less damage          | damage and bleed       |  on short range       | big shock damage, a lot of bleed IF          | good penetration on doors/walls/armor

                                                                                                    |     each. mostly for bleeding.   |    application                  |                                   | target does not wear armor                       | maybe with 'rifled' mod would be useful instead of rifles for up to 100m                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                             |    fights   (if attachemts to     shotguns are made)     

Idea is to make shotguns more upgradable and viable in late game, but by no means i want a sniper from a bk.
And also, current shotgun ammo fits very well in the game and i only suggest addition of new types, not a removal/modifing current ammunition.

Edited February 9, 2022 by SirIzoc

[General Zod 1114]

Daily reminder that this is not a first person shooter and more pvp items are not what this game needs. 

[-Gews- 7443]

Birdshot has two problems:

1. too many pellets! A 1-1/8 oz load of #7-1/2s contains about 375 pellets! you can reduce it. but not realistic. realistically useless outside very close range.
2. brain. any damage at all and the player is killed. So you can make 0.5 damage per pellet but it will still have a good chance of killing someone if a single one hits their head.

Fragmentation slug is redundant and uncommon ammo type, regular slug of any type already has enough damage. Armour-piercing slugs of any kind is extremely uncommon and are not actually used by anyone because armour-piercing bullets work better = unrealistic. Just my opinion, exotic shotgun ammo is not realistic to find.



What I would want is redoing of this crappy pumping animation. Incredibly slow!  It takes over 1.5 seconds per shot! Not only that, but you have to do awkward key combo and time it right to achieve that rate of fire. And while doing it your sight picture is broken each time because that's just how DayZ works, but also the character points the gun to the sky...

 I also think slug should have at least 150 damage. It does only 110.

 

[SirIzoc 2]

13 hours ago, General Zod said:

Daily reminder that this is not a first person shooter and more pvp items are not what this game needs. 

I am fully aware that dayz still need some things added. but in the last few years we saw a lot of automatic weapons added like separate variants of ak, separate variant of m4, le-mas, new augs etc. which in my experience greatly widens the gap betweens those who go hunting for top gear in game and those who play more PVE style game. This change in mind would also act like some sort of balancing for those who like shotgun game play.

[DefectiveWater 491]

15 hours ago, General Zod said:

Daily reminder that this is not a first person shooter and more pvp items are not what this game needs. 

But it DOES have PVP elements to it, DayZ is a Survival Sandbox PVP game with zombies mixed in. I'm not against PVP items, but out of all the listed shots, I would only add birdshot.
It's the only one that makes some sense for DayZ.
Others fit Tarkov much more cause there you can prepare for combat, in DayZ you just get what you find.

It could be more common than buckshot, and buckshot could be moved further inland but still capable of spawning on the coast but in low amounts.

If we are adding in more ammo types, I would love to see a rubber pistol round.
Maybe rubber .45 that's more common on the coast/police than .45 ACP.
It would serve as a good freshie uncon ammo, since 1911 is useless already as it is, might as well make it have another use.

Edited February 10, 2022 by DefectiveWater

[Derleth 1352]

52 minutes ago, DefectiveWater said:

But it DOES have PVP elements to it, DayZ is a Survival Sandbox PVP game with zombies mixed in. I'm not against PVP items, but out of all the listed shots, I would only add birdshot.
It's the only one that makes some sense for DayZ.
Others fit Tarkov much more cause there you can prepare for combat, in DayZ you just get what you find.

It could be more common than buckshot, and buckshot could be moved further inland but still capable of spawning on the coast but in low amounts.

If we are adding in more ammo types, I would love to see a rubber pistol round.
Maybe rubber .45 that's more common on the coast/police than .45 ACP.
It would serve as a good freshie uncon ammo, since 1911 is useless already as it is, might as well make it have another use.

Agreed, birdshot would make sense. I also know that there is a beanbag shell ammo type prepared in the files, but what the difference (in gameplay terms) of those would be vs the rubber slugs I don't know. A few more different shotguns would also be nice, the semi-auto MP-153 would be an addition that fit DayZ well and bridge the gap between the pump shotgun and the beastly Vaiga. (The MP-153 is part of the Mass's Many Items mod, both the civilian version with 3-shell internal mag and the police version with 5-shell internal mag. They really are perfect for DayZ.)

Other than that, the only additional guns I would want to see would be a few more low tier pistols and rifles. From legacy we still miss the Derringers, P1, Red-9, Longhorn and Trumpet, along with the pistol grip MP-133 and Rak submachine gun.

[William Sternritter 441]

1 hour ago, Derleth said:

I also know that there is a beanbag shell ammo type prepared in the files, but what the difference (in gameplay terms) of those would be vs the rubber slugs I don't know.

I hope it's not gamification, that beanbags would be effective vs infected and rubber slugs vs survivors. It would be a twist though if they are essentially the same but beanbags could cause death. 

[Derleth 1352]

3 hours ago, William Sternritter said:

I hope it's not gamification, that beanbags would be effective vs infected and rubber slugs vs survivors. It would be a twist though if they are essentially the same but beanbags could cause death. 

The rubber slugs do a little bit of health damage if I remember right, if you mag dump a Vaiga with full drum mag you might be able to actually kill a player or zombie. The player would be easier since he's knocked out after one or two hits, zeds don't have shock so they'd keep swinging..

[William Sternritter 441]

1 hour ago, Derleth said:

The rubber slugs do a little bit of health damage if I remember right, if you mag dump a Vaiga with full drum mag you might be able to actually kill a player or zombie. The player would be easier since he's knocked out after one or two hits, zeds don't have shock so they'd keep swinging..

I rather mean random insta death, AFAIK beanbags have some chance of causing cardiac arrest when you get hit in between heartbeats. 

[General Zod 1114]

11 hours ago, SirIzoc said:

I am fully aware that dayz still need some things added. but in the last few years we saw a lot of automatic weapons added like separate variants of ak, separate variant of m4, le-mas, new augs etc. which in my experience greatly widens the gap betweens those who go hunting for top gear in game and those who play more PVE style game. This change in mind would also act like some sort of balancing for those who like shotgun game play.

Apart from chicken there are no birds to hunt so don't see much use for birdshot. The two types of slug are clearly for PvP since you're talking about armour penetration. And the fact that we have so many rifles is exactly why we don't need anymore weapons for PvP. 

[-Gews- 7443]

I made a post but it was automatically hidden until approved by a moderator. That's a first. I won't hold my breath, so:

Birdshot has two problems:

1. too many pellets! A 1-1/8 oz load of #7-1/2s contains about 375 pellets! you can reduce it. but not realistic. realistically useless outside very close range.
2. brain. any damage at all and the player is killed. So you can make 0.5 damage per pellet but it will still have a good chance of killing someone if a single one hits their head. And as mentioned birdshot has many pellets.

Fragmentation (segmented) slug is redundant and uncommon ammo type, regular slug of any type is already devastating (at least, it should be). Armour-piercing slugs of any kind is extremely uncommon and are not actually used by anyone because armour-piercing bullets work better = unrealistic. Just my opinion, exotic shotgun ammo is not realistic to find.

What I would want is redoing of this crappy pumping animation. Incredibly slow!  It takes over 1.5 seconds per shot! Not only that, but you have to do awkward key combo and time it right to achieve that rate of fire. And while doing it your sight picture is broken each time because that's just how DayZ works, but also the character points the gun to the sky...

 I also think slug should have at least 150 damage. It does only 110.

[kichilron 8550]

6 hours ago, -Gews- said:

I made a post but it was automatically hidden until approved by a moderator. That's a first.

First for me, too. I will take a look into it.

[ImpulZ 2491]

@-Gews-@kichilron, this is a temporary measure for posts including links, while we work on a better automated solution against link spammers.

[WOLVERlNES 134]

I feel like we already have enough shotgun ammo variety.

[Ellie Jean 34]

Same. You really only need the three types. 🤭

[Officer Failure 31]

I think there should be at least one more Buckshot type (weaker than the existing one). It doesn't make sense to me that there is this very strong type of buckshot (i think its #00(8,38mm) Buck?) on the civilian loottable all across the map. A normal rural civilian shotgun owning household has pellets ammunition fitting the size for like rats, crows, "chicken stealing foxes" and car cable biting martens (weasetype). And yeah more inland where there are wolves and bears there should be the existing one found. Farm and hunting loot should not be effected. Birdshot may be too weak at all but something in between like size #5(3mm) with 36 grain - with a double shot you could still kill a wolf but it would way too weak for a grown boar.

On 2/11/2022 at 2:51 AM, -Gews- said:

2. brain. any damage at all and the player is killed. So you can make 0.5 damage per pellet but it will still have a good chance of killing someone if a single one hits their head. And as mentioned birdshot has many pellets.

But if a weaker shotgun pellet ammunition is brought in and it ends up deadlier because of this problematic then it shouldn't brought in at all.

On 2/9/2022 at 4:05 PM, SirIzoc said:

For example there could be lootable 'rifled' barrels for shotguns which you could interchange for bk-133 which would increase accuracy for slugs or rifled chokes for also increasing accuracy.

You can't just change the barrel of a shotgun (correct me if am wrong), some machineguns maybe and some assault rifles. But fittet in auxiliary barrels are sure be a thing for shotguns. Like 9mm, 357 or ofc .22. for a cal 12 shotguns. Even though that's not really needed imo.

On 2/9/2022 at 4:05 PM, SirIzoc said:

But if there would be bigger variation on shotgun ammo and some of it would be more 'military' grade like high penetration brass slugs or some coper fragmentation slugs it would maybe introduce some new game play of shotguns to dayz.

I always wondered what kind of ammunition is actually loaded in a military grade saiga. Also consider that a regular "old" shotgun is usually made for lead which is soft- steel or harder ammunition damages the barrel (also mind the pressure).

Edited February 18, 2022 by Officer Failure
wording

[SirIzoc 2]

Just addition to this topic: 

Shotgun slugs (at least in Russia) were created because of strict laws against rifles. So slugs were manufactured in different  types and sizes to be an alternative to rifles (which were hard to get hold on to). So there are many old different designs for slugs, buckshot etc. 
And ofc. it would be cool to have 1 more type of slug for pvp, like i mentioned above, for pvp use (aka high penetration). Even in 1970" police in 'Murica was using these 'hard' compound slugs which could penetrate up to 1" mild steel (atleast it was advertised as that in patents). 
A lot of different designs for shutgun ammo originates in russia and meaninig the lore of dayz, i think it would be more fitting dayz than having M4,augs, lemas (which clearly not russan derived) laying in russian bilitary baracks ? 
And again
By all means, i dont suggest removing/updating current weapons, mechanics. I only suggest more types of ammo.

[SirIzoc 2]

Also

Most Flare guns ammo is 12 gauge. So it would be fun to also make possible to shoot flares out of break action shotguns (BK-43 - because flare rounds are too long to load into pump action shotguns or mags like in vaiga)

[DefectiveWater 491]

3 minutes ago, SirIzoc said:

So it would be fun to also make possible to shoot flares out of break action shotguns

Now that would be a cool idea, but from what I know flares don't deal any damage right now.

[Former Echo Trooper 8]

Some other ideas for shotgun rounds. 
 

1. Dragonsbreath. Basically buckshot but instead of lead, magnesium. Same range and damage but add burning effect and a bright flash at night. Been around since the early nineties or sooner. 
 

2.  Fletchette. Steel darts that are capable of piercing body armor. And has increased range over buck. Been around since the Vietnam war. Would basically negate worn body armor. 
 

3.  Door breacher rounds. Smaller shot than bird shot. Basically lead dust. Could only damage a player or infected at melee ranges. Used to breech doors and locks. Could be used for base raiding at lower numbers needed than buck. 

[Buakaw 274]

On 2/11/2022 at 2:51 AM, -Gews- said:

What I would want is redoing of this crappy pumping animation. Incredibly slow!  It takes over 1.5 seconds per shot! Not only that, but you have to do awkward key combo and time it right to achieve that rate of fire. And while doing it your sight picture is broken each time because that's just how DayZ works, but also the character points the gun to the sky...

old post but very good point... it is because of this clunkyness that the double barrel feels best to use and that I rarely use shotguns past gear up phase.