Role of submachine guns in DayZ

[-Gews- 7443]

Submachine guns have mostly been made obsolete by compact assault rifles, compared to which they have low power and short effective range. Compared to an M4A1 the best submachine guns in game, the MP5K and the UMP45, look pretty pathetic:





(based on real life, not in-game silly values)
 

Not to mention the pistol rounds would be easily stopped by any body armor, whereas the rifle rounds would go through soft armor like it wasn't there. They could still have some advantages, though...
 

Noise: most fire smaller cartridges and should have lower noise, having a smaller sound radius and drawing less zombies compared to an assault rifle, whether suppressed or unsuppressed. To increase the advantage the pistol suppressors could be a lot easier to find than the rifle suppressors.

Size: most submachine guns are smaller than full-sized assault rifles. And when you look at the very smallest submachine guns, it isn't even close. Smaller size can mean more maneuverability, as well as easier storage.

Rarity: being lower-tier, some submachine guns could be made easier to find in coastal locations than assault rifles, thanks to the police stations. As we don't have civilian .223/5.56 or 5.45mm rifles, the ammo could be easier to find as well, with the exception of the 7.62x39mm.

Weight: on average, they're lighter. But not always by much. If you look at some of the loaded weights:

UMP45...........................3,0 kg
MP5K.............................3,3 kg
M4A1.............................3,7 kg
AKS74U..........................3,2 kg

 

And if you add two magazines to that, the difference gets smaller...

UMP45...........................4,4 kg
MP5K.............................4,4 kg
M4A1.............................4,7 kg
AKS74U..........................4,2 kg


 

Advantages submachine guns should not have...
 

Comparing the  largest pistol cartridge, the .45 automatic, to the least powerful assault rifle cartridge, the 5.45x39mm, the .45's damage should be less. Full stop. Some people think a .45 would be more effective because it fires larger bullets. They're wrong. Even fired from the tiny AKS74U, the 5.45mm beats the .45 auto by almost 400 J and 1500 feet per second.



The 5.45 and 5.56 have smaller bullets but they make bigger holes. This is the one that bugs me the most, as .45 was given hit = 9, while the much more powerful 5.45 (2.5-3x more powerful) and 5.56 (3-3.5x more powerful) were given hit = 7.2 and hit =8, respectively. They have more values now for shock, health and blood damage of different rounds, but the hit values remain the same.

As far as recoil, some games give SMGs much less recoil than rifles just because they're SMGs, but in reality they may or may not be easier to control vs an assault rifle, depending on the cartridges, designs, weights, mechanisms, and muzzle devices. Depends on the weapon.


tl;dr: submachine guns should be easier to get hold of, but inferior to assault rifles, except in certain niche situations, such as a sniper wanting a smaller backup weapon, or someone requiring a quieter suppressed weapon. Which for the most part is actually the case. So it's just that pesky UMP45 hit value bothering me. I haven't yet tested .45 damage in 0.63 but this bothered me previously and while extra values would seem to affect it, the base hit value is still higher than the 5.45 and 5.56.

Edited November 26, 2018 by -Gews-

[ZomboWTF 527]

One question: shouldn't rounds like the .45 be more effective against unarmored targets? they have a bigger diameter, and unless the ingame bullets are FMJs, should make way bigger wounds and cause more bleeding than a 5.56, if a 5.56 straight up passes through a target, it leaves a lot of energy somewhere you don't want it to be, 9mm hollow point and .45 should do way more damage if they enter the body, or is that a misconception?

other than that, i hope that all weapons get a BIG balance pass in both rarity and power, it's all over the place right now

if you know where to go for military loot spawns, an M4 is almost always there, along with a lot of ammo and the best sight in the game

the only weapon that is better is the SVD, wich suffers from the ammo being very rare

 

An M4 should be very hard to find, and IF you find one, should almost always need cleaning to work properly, finding pristine M4s lying in the dirt makes me chuckle

Edited November 26, 2018 by ZomboWTF

[Parazight 1599]

With the current inventory set-up, you never have to double-carry, essentially.  For me, and most other people, it pretty much comes down to this. 

There's really no reason to keep an UMP or MP5K.  You can keep your rifle with the Hunting Scope, or the SVD, (and sometimes mosin, if you're feeling nostalgic) on your back and just put your M4 in your vest, jacket or improvised backpack.  You couldn't do this throughout most of Alpha.  You had to choose between Hunting Scope or an assault rifle.  Not as of .63.  Forget about specialization!  Being practical, because of the nature of the video game, the M4 is just a better choice.  It's far more reliable hitting targets further than mid-range.  The M4 is far more versatile.  And why spend time working on UMP/MP5K when you can go M4 right away?  Now, everybody can have a sniper rifle.!!  (yay?) 

If the RAK were in every toilet across chernarus, and was 1x3 squares, would you even use it? Much less as an end-game option.

 

The fact that you can fit a M4 in your backpack nowadays makes the gun much more powerful while at the same time, nerfs typical submachine guns.

As far as being easier to find, well, nothing has ever been really difficult to obtain since alpha was launched.

Great post, Gews!

[Parazight 1599]

2 minutes ago, ZomboWTF said:

One question: shouldn't rounds like the .45 be more effective against unarmored targets? they have a bigger diameter, and unless the ingame bullets are FMJs, should make way bigger wounds and cause more bleeding than a 5.56

Hollow-point slugs for everyone!! woot!

[ZomboWTF 527]

Just now, Parazight said:

Hollow-point slugs for everyone!! woot!

why slugs? just get micro grenades and have yourself an MP-133 grenade launcher! just like Desert Punk

[Parazight 1599]

My grandfather use to tell me stories where soldiers would prefer to use rounds that didn't immediately vaporize a Nazi's skull.  Instead of using rounds like mushrooming hollow points, they'd use rounds that would just put small holes in enemy infantry.  Then, Nazi medics would have to come and try to save their comrades, which takes up resources while providing additional targets to shoot at.  Not sure where I'm going with this story, but hearing stories of people shooting Nazis always put a smile on my face.  Good times, good times.

Oh yea, I guess it's not the size of your hole that matters the most.  >.<

[Kl05ek 0]

ew, brony...

[emuthreat 2837]

Isn't there some merit to the .45 ACP for traveling so slowly that it won't cause a through and through hit, but rather be more likely to transfer all the kinetic energy into the target?
I've read that 55 grain 5.56 were known to fragment or yaw upon impact, which appears to be consistent with the M193 packaging shown in game.

Is this a moot point, or is there some merit to the argument of full transfer of KE on impact?

Most SWAT teams now carry carbines rather than SMGs, as it has been found that even uninsulated 3/4"drywall will cause 5.56 to tumble and start losing KE very quickly, alleviating concerns of *cough* overpenetration *cough*.

This begs the question of whether SMGs are largely obsolete, when overall size isn't an issue.

[Evilsausage 87]

Yeah from what I have heard pistols with 45 acp and .445 fires very slow moving bullets but are known for having good stopping power. A 11mm bullet to tumbling inside someones body can be quiite nasty while a 5.56 (much smaller size) can go clean through and if unlucky cause less damage.
But real gunshot wounds are very complex and there are so many factors that the determines the damage.


Overall it feels like there should be more advantages to getting a SMG in DayZ. In the pacific many soldiers prefered the rather tiny M2 Carbine over the M1 Garand. Even though the Garand was more powerful, mostly due to its small size and weight.
We also have to remember 9mm and 45acp ammo should have alot less weight then a 7.62 or 5.56. Not sure how that is portrayed in DayZ.

Yeah SMGs are starting to see less and less use IRL. But I guess they have some uses.

Like people have said already, they are less likely to go through walls or go through targets and hitting hostages.
The high velocity on assault rifles is also dangerous in urban areas due to potential ricochets.
They are lighter/shorter and generally have less recoil when fired.
If your using a Suppressor, you will have to sacrifice alot of velocity anyway on a assault rifle to get the rounds subsonic. So I guess thats a strength of a SMG. 

Edited November 27, 2018 by Evilsausage

[-Gews- 7443]

6 hours ago, emuthreat said:

Isn't there some merit to the .45 ACP for traveling so slowly that it won't cause a through and through hit, but rather be more likely to transfer all the kinetic energy into the target?
I've read that 55 grain 5.56 were known to fragment or yaw upon impact, which appears to be consistent with the M193 packaging shown in game.
Is this a moot point, or is there some merit to the argument of full transfer of KE on impact?

Energy used in flying at great speed out the other side is energy wasted. Caveat "at great speed", since going out the other side usually gives more external bleeding and a better blood trail. But .45 ball doesn't lack for penetration, it will go 25+ inches in ballistic gelatin, while the 5.56 when fragmenting may only go 15 or less, with about 3x the energy.

Personally I ignore what it says on the boxes, eg, I would want the devs to put stats for SS109-type despite the box. The box artworks are sometimes inconsistent and often don't make the most sense within the game world, for example, a few things:

-civilian 55 gr "XM193" instead of 62 gr SS109/M855. But box also says "M193". What's the truth?
-60 grain commercial ammo for 5.45mm military-exclusive weapons
-9mm is "125 gr Tactical JHP" (guess it should be more powerful than .45, then)
-... but wait, rounds that come out of 9mm box are FMJ
-buckshot box says "1600 fps", whoa! Regular buckshot is around 1300.
-... but wait, shells that come out of buckshot box say "1140 fps", so it's a lot more powerful, yet a lot less powerful.
-also claims to feature "SuperTight" wad, so I guess based on the real product it should have 8 pellets and extra low spread
-rifled slug box says "EXTRA POWER", but it's a lie, because slugs themselves say "1200 fps", which means about 40% less power than the average slug


My preference is just to simulate the most common type of ammunition or the type that makes the most sense to me within the context of the game, regardless of the modelers' box artworks. So I'd put green tip 5.56, steel core 5.45, for 9mm and .45 probably ball, regular full-power, 9-pellet 00 2-3/4" buckshot, and either full-power Foster or (since it's a European setting) Brenneke slugs.


 

10 hours ago, ZomboWTF said:

One question: shouldn't rounds like the .45 be more effective against unarmored targets? they have a bigger diameter, and unless the ingame bullets are FMJs, should make way bigger wounds and cause more bleeding than a 5.56, if a 5.56 straight up passes through a target, it leaves a lot of energy somewhere you don't want it to be, 9mm hollow point and .45 should do way more damage if they enter the body, or is that a misconception?

Misconception, even with a hollow point. 



In some cases the pistol rounds could do more damage, for example, on the 7.62x39 PS ball: "The typical path through the abdomen caused minimal disruption; holes in organs were similar to those caused by a non-hollow-point handgun bullet.  The average uncomplicated thigh wound was about what one would expect from a low-powered handgun: a small, punctate entrance and exit wound with minimal intervening muscle disruption."

But overall it's not close. These handgun rounds don't have the horsepower to compete. Let's say you wanted to shoot a deer with that 7.62x39 PS that has "minimal disruption"... well, shoot him through the shoulders, now you pretty much expanded that bullet and used most of that 1500 foot pounds of energy to make a big mess. You couldn't shoot it anywhere with a 230 grain .45 and use much more than 400 foot pounds.

 

9 minutes ago, Evilsausage said:

We also have to remember 9mm and 45acp ammo should have alot less weight then a 7.62 or 5.56. Not sure how that is portrayed in DayZ.

9mm weighs about the same as 5.56 (~190 grains), and .45 ACP weighs about the same as 7.62x54R (~330 grains).
 

37 minutes ago, Evilsausage said:

Like people have said already, they are less likely to go through walls or go through targets and hitting hostages.

As Emuthreat mentioned above 9mm or .45 can go through more, actually, retaining momentum vs light .223/5.56 breaking up. But it depends what objects you're shooting at and also which rounds you're using as well. I think rounds would need at least two values, for penetration of hard targets such as armour plate and for penetration of soft targets such as cows.

27 minutes ago, Evilsausage said:

If your using a Suppressor, you will have to sacrifice alot of velocity anyway on a assault rifle to get the rounds subsonic. So I guess thats a strength of a SMG. 

Often subsonic 5.56 won't work at all because it won't cycle the weapon, and if you can get something does work, it's uncomfortably close to a .22, as it is a .22, which is why they have things like .300 Blackout and 9x39mm. ARMA 2 had subsonic 5.56 rounds, was pretty unrealistic.


 

[TheYetiBum 790]

It's a real shame there isn't currently a place for submachine guns, it'd be nice if they reduced the bullet arc for them and made them more useful at range. The UMP performs strangely for me also as the FNX.45 will one tap infected to centre mass but occasionally the UMP will need two shots to centre mass to put an infested down. 

I agree that the sound level should be reduced for silenced SMG's as well, I've found that they still aggro infected over a larger radius than an equivalent pistol silenced firing the same round. At least it'd make that sniper/SMG combo viable without the need for a backup silenced pistol for dealing with infected aggro mid fire fight. The stamina system causes balancing issues for weapons inadvertently because of carry weight making some character builds untenable.

[Buakaw 274]

Speaking of submachine guns:

The mp5k in the game is supposed to fire at 900 freedoms per minute, but it feels lower now?

here is how it used to be, full clip at 3:55.

Spoiler

 

 

Edited December 2, 2018 by Buakaw

[PandahFistophacleezeSykes 12]

Well if any of the submacbine guns were In game I think we would all have a better view of them ... but of course they are more rare (or non existent) than the “top tier” assault rifles FFS .