Completely random spawns

[emuthreat 2837]

Oh good, I was worried someone was going to ask difficult questions about my BS origin story.  Like, "if they are cosmonauts coming back to an infected earth, why do you not spawn with a TP-82?"  Or, "isn't that basically the same premise from Planet of the Apes?" 

As always, Pilgrim, thanks for taking it so seriously.

[Luc Tonnerre 174]

1 hour ago, emuthreat said:

Oh good, I was worried someone was going to ask difficult questions about my BS origin story.  Like, "if they are cosmonauts coming back to an infected earth, why do you not spawn with a TP-82?"  Or, "isn't that basically the same premise from Planet of the Apes?" 

As always, Pilgrim, thanks for taking it so seriously.

Why are we never spawning fully geared since we have to pay the full price for the game? That's what I want to know!

I find this offensive!

(not)

Edited March 31, 2016 by Luc Tonnerre

[Irish. 4886]

Random spawn points huh? 

 

Here is what it actually would look like:

and then there is the other option of almost everyone gets the same spawn point...

[JBURNS489 165]

Okay so I just wasted a good 20 minutes of my life catching up on this thread. Lets simplify the thread and lets have some constructive criticism for and against changing the way we spawn. Talking about the backstory of how the survivors got there is pretty irrelevant to me. If you want a backstory, make one up and roleplay. Anyway, as far I can see, here are the pros and cons for making the spawn points, according to this thread, spread out across the entire map. (Not completely random so we don't spawn into water and inside buildings, but maybe 50 different spawn points that were selected by the devs, and you will randomly spawn into one of those 50.)

PROS:
- Helps to curb constant deathmatching  and camping on the coast

- Will force people to explore the map which the Dev's have so painstakingly revamped for the Standalone

- Helps the mechanic abuse of people suiciding for a "desired" spawn location

- Makes running for hours A LOT less boring, because you have to watch for other people constantly

- Adds more realism and tension no matter where you are or what you're doing (the Dayz Feels)

- When you die, it is a true Perma Death.

- Adds to the survival aspect of DayZ, which is sorely lacking at the moment.

 

CONS:

- Takes longer to find your friends or group

- Harder to camp "Freshies" (This could be in the Pro Section, but it was mentioned as a reason against)

- If spawns were completely randomized, possibility of spawning in stuck or in a weird spot

- Big increase in difficulty for new players, possibly too hard

 

Anyone have anything to add?

 

Edited March 31, 2016 by JBURNS489

[Irish. 4886]

3 minutes ago, JBURNS489 said:

 

Anyone have anything to add?

 

Yeah, this is probably exactly what the devs have in mind and will do eventually

...and the spawns are random.

So... ???

Edited March 31, 2016 by lrishjake

[JBURNS489 165]

Edit* 

Spawns are not randomized at all, so not sure where you got that. That is the entire purpose of this thread.. And it would be nice to have a dev chime in if it's even on their radar or something we can expect in the future?

Edited March 31, 2016 by JBURNS489

[Irish. 4886]

You ask for respect while questioning my intelligence?

42 minutes ago, JBURNS489 said:

Let's be constructive and at least try to hold a semi intelligent discussion here...

We are certainly not on the same page because I understand logic.

Logic provides the insight that there will be random spawns, but not throughout the entire map. 

Logic is also what makes me question why this conversation even needs to happen.... again. For the, oh I dont know,  .. 100th time. 

 

*edit: I noticed you were having fun editing.. so I have added this: Go Google this topic. Profit. /thread

Edited March 31, 2016 by lrishjake

[JBURNS489 165]

1 minute ago, lrishjake said:

 

We are certainly not on the same page because I understand logic.

Logic provides the insight that there will be random spawns, but not throughout the map. 

Logic is also what makes me question why this conversation even needs to happen.... Again. For the, oh I dont know,  .. 100th time. 

Please explain the logic behind this? You claim logic gives you the insight that spawns will be randomized but not throughout the entire map with no supporting evidence or facts. That's not logic at all, but pure conjecture and guessing. Its a shame common sense isn't very common either. 

[pilgrim* 3514]

11 minutes ago, JBURNS489 said:

..//.. I wasted 20 minutes ..//..

       Anyone have anything to add?

                                                                                                                                                                         " If you want a backstory, make one up and roleplay " - that's one attitude, it's a controversial subject.

BUT: On Topic

Yes - Good resume of PrOS and CONS, JBURNS489

your PROS are good :
- But you must add "takes longer to find your friends" in with the PROS - Group players have TeamSpeak so they already have an enormous advantage over the base DayZ 'lone survivor' scenario. Accept that as a serious advantage and play the game. If you are a team who can communicate anywhere across the whole the map, that's enough to give you a huge head start. (damn - that's all the Army gets in real life. Deal with it, play the game, don't ask for more.)

your CONS should include:
- A big increase in difficulty for newcomers - this "pseudo-random" [I know you don't intend it to be truly random, but ...] across-the-map spawn will destroy and strongly discourage newcomers to the game. It reduces their chances of finding out what the hell is going on by around a thousand percent. Calculate the difference between current spawn areas (in their Dev-selected locations) and the total of square miles around those spawn areas, Compared that figure to the surface area of the whole map. Calculate how much less chance you have of spawning with eyes on something that makes sense to a newcomer - the chances are weighted strongly towards no sea, no town, no road marker, or you spawn inside a base, or in zombie area, or possibly far from water, no recognizable features, no clues to where you are, or you spawn right inside today's hot PvP area... All beginners ATM die plenty times before they start to get the hang of game possibilities.. drop them in "nowhere" and you multiply beginner difficulty enormously.
This means (bottom line) that even a clued-in newcomer would START by suicide multiple times until they found a location that seemed to give them a chance to survive.
Result: [official DayZ handbook advice] = Beginners should spawn and suicide and respawn and suicide - until they reach the coast or a town and start play from there. The numbers of newcomers to the game would drop sharply..or suicide travel would become the official everybody-does-it startup technique. Both these are bad options.

(just a note: This is why the original "on the beach" spawn was very useful for first time players (remember?) - it gave them a simple scenario to explain their arrival (some like that) - but most importantly it provided a simple learning process to discover map features, and very easy direction finding, until you are experienced enough to branch out on your own). Spawning at locations scattered "anywhere" on the map means beginners will have to gen up on direction finding techniques, and learn chunks of the map, before they even log in for the first time (and pre-game learn other things) just to begin to have the slightest chance. Also they are not likely to find player help, or any players at all, if there are 50 spawn points on a 40-50 max player server.

*

[ Off topic: It really should NEVER be assumed that DayZ is a game designed for Teams with Teamspeak, and that solo players are "playing wrong". It was never set that 'teams with TS' is the only real game. ]

:)

 

[emuthreat 2837]

1 hour ago, JBURNS489 said:

Talking about the backstory of how the survivors got there is pretty irrelevant to me. If you want a backstory, make one up and roleplay.

....

Anyone have anything to add?

 

I was poking fun at the coastal spawn status quo.  Backstory is only relevant as far as your starting conditions and loadout are concerned; in most cases, on the beach in jeans and a t-shirt with a rag and a flare.

As shown in .58, they can alter the starting gear fairly easily.  I think they took away the flashlights as starting equipment because of the metagaming aspect of being able to hoard batteries by spawn-cycling and dumping the battery in a stash or with a friend.  Or as I had once practiced, going to the coast and holding up fresh spawns for their batteries.

Having unique, random spawn loadouts would help a bit with character development, especially if they ever decided to tie-in a soft skill predispostion.  Like spawning with nothing but netting and a rag, wearing wellies a boonie hat, and short canvas pants; no shirt for you salty fisherman spawns.

Edited March 31, 2016 by emuthreat
spalling

[JBURNS489 165]

You bring up very valid points pilgrim. The leanrning curve associated with spawning randomly anywhere in chenarus would be a big hurdle for new players to overcome. Without new players, mmo games die a slow death.

[Irish. 4886]

7 minutes ago, JBURNS489 said:

Please explain the logic behind this? 

This logic right here:

log·ic

ˈläjik/

noun

1.

reasoning conducted or assessed according to strict principles of validity.

"experience is a better guide to this than deductive logic"

synonyms:reasoning, line of reasoning, rationale, argument, argumentation

"the logic of their argument"

 

 

 

 

Edited March 31, 2016 by lrishjake

[JBURNS489 165]

So what strict principal of validity is your line of thought coming from? That spawns will be randomized because you assume they will? There is a difference between making an educated guess (read logic) and a just a shot in the dark. If you can explain and defend your line of thought then I will concede it's logic. So far all you have said is a pure guess...not logic.

[pilgrim* 3514]

Just a thought following JBURNS489 - the survivable (for beginners) spawn points can be extended with some thought - for instance 2 or 3 points along the 'great E-W Northern highway. It is almost as good as a sea coast for orientation and there is access to various 'assets'. Then the wooded hillside overlooking the supermarket right down in the SW of the map (ok that is a coast spawn, true) but there are assets not too far away - with some thought a new dozen of "not crazy" locations could be added that would be quickly recognizable ?  Any suggestions of where a newcomer would stand a 'reasonable' chance without being totally discouraged? - off the top of my head eg a hillside with a good viewpoint over something useful?

 

Edited March 31, 2016 by pilgrim*

[Irish. 4886]

9 minutes ago, JBURNS489 said:

So what strict principal of validity is your line of thought coming from? That spawns will be randomized because you assume they will? There is a difference between making an educated guess (read logic) and a just a shot in the dark. If you can explain and defend your line of thought then I will concede it's logic. So far all you have said is a pure guess...not logic.

Just stop.

:(

Edited March 31, 2016 by lrishjake

[Irish. 4886]

This should hopefully begin to set you on the right course.. hopefully. 

1 hour ago, JBURNS489 said:

but maybe 50 different spawn points that were selected by the devs, and you will randomly spawn into one of those 50.)

Player spawn point map (0.58).. .59 has additional player spawn points. Each players new life spawns into one of these spots randomly (as they cannot select where they are going to spawn in). 

 

 

Edited March 31, 2016 by lrishjake

[JBURNS489 165]

11 minutes ago, pilgrim* said:

Just a thought following JBURNS489 - the survivable (for beginners) spawn points can be extended with some thought - for instance 2 or 3 points along the 'great E-W Northern highway. It is almost as good as a sea coast for orientation and there is access to various 'assets'. Then the wooded hillside overlooking the supermarket right down in the SW of the map (ok that is a coast spawn, true) but there are assets not too far away - with some thought a new dozen of "not crazy" locations could be added that would be quickly recognizable ?  Any suggestions of where a newcomer would stand a 'reasonable' chance without being totally discouraged?

The only thing I can think of is to have some sort of timer tied to steam. When you first start in DayZ, you would spawn mostly in the coast the way it is now. After say 24 or 48hours of in game time, you could spawn anywhere in the map. I admittedly have no idea of the feasibility of that though. I don't program games for a living so I can't comment on how technically challenging or time consuming something like that would be. I completely agree though that if spawns were ever to be randomized across the whole map, that some sort of system would be needed to encourage new players and give them time to learn the game

Edited March 31, 2016 by JBURNS489

[Irish. 4886]

On 3/29/2016 at 4:57 PM, Salty seadog said:

Hello survivor's and bandito's,

Deja Vu?

 

[emuthreat 2837]

20 minutes ago, pilgrim* said:

Just a thought following JBURNS489 - the survivable (for beginners) spawn points can be extended with some thought - for instance 2 or 3 points along the 'great E-W Northern highway. It is almost as good as a sea coast for orientation and there is access to various 'assets'. Then the wooded hillside overlooking the supermarket right down in the SW of the map (ok that is a coast spawn, true) but there are assets not too far away - with some thought a new dozen of "not crazy" locations could be added that would be quickly recognizable ?  Any suggestions of where a newcomer would stand a 'reasonable' chance without being totally discouraged? - off the top of my head eg a hillside with a good viewpoint over something useful?

 

Fuck it.  Just make everybody spawn at Krutoy Cap.  It is easily recognizable, and close to resources, while still giving people a chance to go top the east, or south coast, as well as scoot up the hill to Tulga.  It is too far from the hotspots and has good enough cover to prevent it being a real problem area for bami-sniping.

20 minutes ago, JBURNS489 said:

So what strict principal of validity is your line of thought coming from? That spawns will be randomized because you assume they will? There is a difference between making an educated guess (read logic) and a just a shot in the dark. If you can explain and defend your line of thought then I will concede it's logic. So far all you have said is a pure guess...not logic.

The spawns are already randomized, as far as the selection of pre-existing spawn points goes; I think that was the basis of his logical assertion.  I linked to the status report, earlier in this thread, in which Hicks detailed the different loot zones and alluded to the fact that this system only works as designed, when spawns are mostly coastal.

Due diligence, bro, did you do it?  Based on some of your posts in this thread, methinks not....

[Irish. 4886]

                                                 ↓ ..that's me, on the stairs. 

[JBURNS489 165]

2 hours ago, emuthreat said:

The spawns are already randomized, as far as the selection of pre-existing spawn points goes; I think that was the basis of his logical assertion.  I linked to the status report, earlier in this thread, in which Hicks detailed the different loot zones and alluded to the fact that this system only works as designed, when spawns are mostly coastal.

Due diligence, bro, did you do it?  Based on some of your posts in this thread, methinks not....

This thread is about randomizing spawns across the whole map, not randomizing spawns on the coast. The title of the thread "Completely Randomized Spawns" should be a clue there...And the only thing Hicks alluded to in your link was having a character progression. It really had very little to do with actual character spawn points, which again, is the point of this thread. The only thing Hicks actually said about character spawn point is that right now, they are currently all on the coast and they are focusing more on the character progression.

The whole point of me even making my first post in this thread was to get a list of Pros and Cons for and against having completely randomized spawns across the map. Basically a summary of the arguments for and against it. I am not here to be a keyboard warrior and start arguments;  it is not constructive, helpful, nor intelligent to assert something that is based on a reading comprehension error and then backed with nothing but conjecture and faulty logic. I personally am in favor of spawning across the entire map, but I am also willing to have a discussion and hear the other side. I have no problem changing my opinion, but it has to make sense. A discussion is what I am asking for, not just trolling and nonsense

Edited March 31, 2016 by JBURNS489

[emuthreat 2837]

2 minutes ago, JBURNS489 said:

This thread is about randomizing spawns across the whole map, not randomizing spawns on the coast. The title of the thread "Completely Randomized Spawns" should be a clue there...And the only thing Hicks alluded to in your link was having a character progression. It really had very little to do with actual character spawn points, which again, is the point of this thread. The only thing Hicks actually said about character spawn point is that right now, they are currently all on the coast and they are focusing more on the character progression.

The whole point of me even making my first post in this thread was to get a list of Pros and Cons for and against having completely randomized spawns across the map. Basically a summary of the arguments for and against it. I am not here to be a keyboard warrior and start arguments; but it is not constructive, helpful, nor intelligent to assert something that is based on a reading comprehension error and then backed with nothing but conjecture and faulty logic. I personally am in favor of spawning across the entire map, but I am also willing to have a discussion based on it and hear the other side. I have no problem changing my opinion, but it has to make sense. A discussion is what I am asking for, not just trolling and nonsense

What I was trying to get at by pointing out the zonal loot spawn control system, is that it looks like they are investing a fair amount of energy into a situation dependent on players spawning in region 1, along the coast.  So based on this knowledge, I am nearly certain that randomized spawns, as you described, are not going to be a goal for 1.0.

If you still want to talk about the possible merits and pitfalls of a completely randomized spawn system, please share your ideas for how this can be done without causing the types of problems that were pointed out by Irishjake, Pilgrim, and myself.  They are all very valid concerns.

Pilgrim was concerned about new players being completely lost, Jake was concerned about players spawning into geometry and waiting to die, and I am concerned about players spawning into camps.  If you have a solution that addresses all of those concerns, I would be interested to hear it.

Also refer back to my point about zonal loot distribution; which I would think makes this discussion pretty pointless as far as the official 1.0 development cycle is concerned.

[JBURNS489 165]

Understood and thank you for your well thought out response. As far as the arguments you pointed out,  only pilgrim really makes a valid point. Jake's concern about spawning into geometry (inside hills or under houses) doesn't hold any weight because if it did, we would have that issue now. We do not spawn inside a hill or anywhere where we could be stuck because the spawns are most likely hand picked locations by the devs. The argument isn't about fundamentally changing how spawns work, just that we should have more of them and spread out across the whole map. I don't foresee the devs selecting spawn points under a house or inside a wall somewhere. 

As far as your argument goes, it depends on what they do with base building. If they make a system where you can actually create free standing structures as a base, then your point is valid. It would suck to spend hours planning and building a base, only to have a bambi spawn in and destroy/loot everything. On other the hand, if base building turns out to be just a fortification system where you erect barriers and board up windows on existing structures, then your argument is invalid. The spawn points wouldn't be inside your base anyway, so someone spawning inside would be impossible. Worst case scenario would be someone spawning next to or near your base, which if it's fortified, I don't see an issue with. It all depends on what they do in relation to base building.

As for pilgrims point, it's a very valid concern. If new players spawned randomly across the map, it would increase the learning curve tenfold. The only solution I can think of is to have some sort of new player timer, where they would spawn in On the coast or in a safer area until they have a set amount of time in game. After that time, they would join everyone else spawning everywhere. 

 

Also, I am not ignoring your very valid point about the zonal loot distribution system. I am going to go see what nformation I can find on it and will report back here. That may be a matter for the devs to decide what direction they want to go with dayz standalone. All I am able to do is provide my opinion with supporting facts. Again, thank you for the well thought out response

Edited March 31, 2016 by JBURNS489

[pilgrim* 3514]

I don't even know if it is technically possible for a player to spawn into an area of tree cover. That would be a useful thing in itself, you spawn in a woodland border, you are not visible for miles and exposed, you can see a town, a river, a main road, or a feature (a castle for instance) or a dock down below you..
I don't think there should be "more" spawn points, but with the growth of towns in the north and spreading to the North West, it could be possible to widen the dispersion of spawn points to other interesting locations on the map. - for instance in sight of Severograd - woods overlooking Zelenogorsk - north of Novaya Petrovka - in sight of Stary and Novy - above Gorka - the Topelka Dam - northwest of Kraznostav - Zaprudnoe lake - those kinds of places may be moderately difficult locations for new spawns, but not impossible ? And reducing east-side spawn points by dispersing them to the west would make it less easy to suicide-travel to the popular "key play" areas (there would be less spawn points around there)..

say - everyone spawns with a compass instead of the old pocket torch they used to be lumbered with - to encourage travel and direction finding ? Just floating an idea..

 

Edited March 31, 2016 by pilgrim*

[JBURNS489 165]

3 hours ago, emuthreat said:

What I was trying to get at by pointing out the zonal loot spawn control system, is that it looks like they are investing a fair amount of energy into a situation dependent on players spawning in region 1, along the coast.  So based on this knowledge, I am nearly certain that randomized spawns, as you described, are not going to be a goal for 1.0.

It looks like the concentration of loot is indeed placed on purpose in order to create a "flow" of players around the map. The location of the concentration of loot is based on relation to where players spawn. For example tent city and NWAF being relatively close. They placed loot on purpose to draw people to the north western side of the map. I honestly don't understand why you need a flow of players in a sandbox mmo survival game to begin with, but that's "above my pay grade" so to speak. Anyone with more insight or another prospective is welcome to chime in. If the flow of players is somehow paramount to the fun we, as players, have while actually playing, then spawn points across the whole map is not the solution. My question would then shift to how do we accomplish at least some of what is on the Pro side of the list above? 

Edited March 31, 2016 by JBURNS489