[Opinion] The Value of Base Building?

[Cavadus 4]

Really, building from scratch and fortifying existing structures should both be options but I think this is the most important feature the game needs right now.  It's legitimate endgame.

[brazorf 46]

On 25/2/2016 at 7:32 AM, [DGN] Johnny said:

So I'm curious what the communities thoughts are on the value of building a base in the future. Obviously we have a loose understanding of the concept in application, plenty of games out there sport some sort of base building concept, and most everyone that has dealt with it, also had dealt with how it dosent really sync with the value of a real world base, when put into a virtual format.

ATM, we're able to use a few different movable storage containers from living out of barrels, tents, car tents, and military tents. Each having their own value, rarity, and ease to find. To being modest and living out of protector cases (I've seen it lol ^.^)). There is also the ability to live out of a built dwelling like log cabins with limited space, and are able to "lock" doors. (Although doors are currently badly bugged)

But obviously we're dreaming bigger here.

 

All that said, all the glimmer and sound goodness aside, what is our thoughts on the real value of this direction? Will this be more aesthetic than function, what sort of schemes and strategies would you like to try? What sort of functions do you want to be able to do?

All games out there teached us what base building is - huge and ugly places where clans stash godzilion of ammo and stuff.

My opinion is that i will probably quit dayz if that kind of base building is added in, because

1) Permadeath concept would be definitely gone 

2) Playing alone or in small groups will put you on a huge disadvantage

3) If i understand right what the loot economy is, what will happen when, for example, a huge amount of sks will be stashed in player bases? Would it spawn anymore?

I feel base building is not what dayz need.

[BeefBacon 1185]

People seem to be under the impression that DayZ as it currently is is representative of how it will be. "What's the point in camps? I can just sprint across the map in 10 minutes to find an SVD and 20 mags to hunt freshspawns since there are no zombies or wild animals, and if I die I can just gear up again because there's no penalty to death!"

You won't be able to move from one side of the map to the other on foot with any speed. You will be slow, and you will need to stop to look for food unless you really stocked up before you set off. You will have to evade zombies and wolves, and if it comes to it you might have to expend one of the 8 rounds you have for your peashooter in order to stop something from eating you. You won't want to die, because then your soft skills will be lost - and maybe there'll be another penalty for dying, who knows?

Shelter of any kind will protect from the elements and from threats to varying degrees. Being able to build a shelter that you can defend that is away from a town or a city will be extremely valuable. Finding a house in the middle of the woods that you can fortify could be even better, though such houses appear on a map which might not be ideal if you wish to remain hidden.

I seem to recall one of the devs saying that the new renderer might mean more trees and thicker foliage, meaning that hiding in the woods might actually become viable. Has a chopper spotted your base from the sky? Well good on them for putting a billion hours into getting a working chopper and then hovering in the sky without getting shot at.

I will probably never bother building a proper base. I might end up barricading something with my mate, but I don't think I'll ever put the time in to build anything substantial. Others might, though, and I'd love to see that.

[emuthreat 2837]

As far as I am concerned, they have already effectively taken away basebuilding with the 8-day decay on persistent storage containers.  I understand that it was done to keep cycling the loot faster, to ensure that it is spawning in predictable places for people to easily go and find.  I think this is a bad idea, because it reinforces the quick-gear, acrade-mode, PVP rinse-and-repeat playstyle, and all-but-forbids persistence-based playstyles.  In short, it punishes the players who are willing and able to put in the time, and find those weapons.  In my experience, this is best facilitated by gaining control of at least two vehicles, and doing extensive helicopter hunting, transportation of loot, tent runs, and base maintenance.  It makes no sense to me to take away all of that effort invested by players, just so lazy players can get their hands on the best loot right away by going to a predictable few locations.  it's not like I am storing my bases offline.  Everybody still has access to the things that I have stored, all they have to do is actually play the game;  get off the coast and look for it, you might even find some unique player interaction while you are at it.

If anyone is curious as to the effects of shortening persistence to keep the CLE spawn tables in a state most similar to an initialized server; I have begun hoarding all of the vehicles I can find to use as more permanent storage, because they won't get arbitrarily taken away from me to ensure that any player can get a working AR within twenty minutes of spawning.  I used to use vehicles as a token of goodwill to offer to new players on the server.  Now I hoard them like a damned miser, so Hick's can't take away my progress every 8 days.

Balancing fail.

Edited May 3, 2016 by emuthreat

[Whyherro123 2283]

I am of the firm opinion that, without basebuilding and persistence, Day Z will never be anything more than yet another "survival" game where you run around and murder nearly-naked people.

I also think that players should be able to build their own structures. Now, would these be like the Rust monstrocities, amalgamations of wood and steel that can get erected in minutes?

No, of fucking course not. If I had my way, the "best" things the players could build would be a log cabin. Log cabins are traditionally very simple and fast to build, requiring nothing more than an axe. With the plethora of tall, straight pine trees you can find in Chernarus, a log cabin would be relatively simple to build. Of course, you would have to 1) cut the trees down, 2) move them to the cabin site, 3) notch them, 4) stack them, and 4) put a roof on the thing. In Colonial America, a settler family could be expected to build a 12 X 10 cabin in a couple of days. Some sturdy clansmen could do the same.

And that would be the top of the line

The most common "shelter" buildable by players? Something similar to the sheds you can already see in-game. Simple structures, made from boards and plywood (both of which are already visible in the game, by the way)

Of course, I would also want to be able to build certain articles of "furniture" in a base. Build a water cistern, so when it rains, it collects drinking water, so you don't have to drink from that scummy stream. Build an oven from bricks, so you can cook your food like a human being. Build some bunks from boards, so you can actually "sleep" in your base, not just use it as a loot-storage (now, I wouldn't want our characters to actually stay in-game when we log out. But..... if you build some sort of bed, or carry around a sleeping bag, when you log back in, you get a health/energy boost, to represent you not sleeping on the ground. Different sleeping sets would give greater bonuses.)

If "basebuilding" ends up being little more than glorified storage, I will be severely disappointed.

[ebrim 998]

I really dislike the sort of base building you see in a lot the "survival" genre.

I'd much prefer to see a few pre-fab type structures available like a lean-to or even a little wooden firetower. Beyond this base building should be rickety walls, some barricades, nothing large. More than anything I'd like to see people build around existing structures.

[Whyherro123 2283]

9 minutes ago, ebrim said:

I really dislike the sort of base building you see in a lot the "survival" genre.

I'd much prefer to see a few pre-fab type structures available like a lean-to or even a little wooden firetower. Beyond this base building should be rickety walls, some barricades, nothing large. More than anything I'd like to see people build around existing structures.

 

[emuthreat 2837]

I reckon a good 50% of players would just run around killing each other on persistence off servers if they were still allowed on the public hive.  I have come across a private server that was managed in a way that essentially negated persistence; the same kind of server that mysteriously resets a few minutes after 3 people die and their car is stolen.

bottom line.  When persistence is crap, basebuilding is pointless.

[puppetworx 474]

I think bases should be implemented like vehicles are: if you want a good one it will take a lot of hard work, luck and will be difficult to hold. Holding onto a vehicle for a few days always feels satisfying but holding onto the helicopter feels like you're king of the server. It should be just like that.

In the mod people were forever trying to make a base out of the factory building south-west of Berezino (and failing) or at Devil's Castle (and having little more success). Facilitating barricading of existing buildings like that should definitely be allowed, a king needs his castle. A king doesn't hide in the woods like some little bitch, he parks his chopper on his tower like a gentleman and puts a flag up to let motherfuckers know just whose running that shit. So, barricading is a definite yes.

Like in the mod, these barricades should not be impenetrable and should be breachable with rare tools. Like the way wire fence could be removed with a toolkit similar methods should be available to bypass other barricades whether it's explosives, grappling hooks, ladders (hard to construct), wire cutters etc. Lots of barricading methods could be added, a super rare chain and padlock that you could put on any door would be an amazing addition.

Ideally loot spawns should be reduced close to where barricades exist - even stopped entirely inside of a base - but this has massive potential for trolling. Still, I hope there will be a way to implement this.

On the smaller side of 'bases' I think tents should be quite rare and using a spade to dig a cache is a good idea so long as it has some visibility to players. A frames looks good, I think treehouses would also be great. It's definitely important that tree foliage is more opaque from the sky for all of these things though, it's incredibly easy to find and raid bases with a chopper right now due to to simple tree models.

Bigger than that I'd like to see construction be a lot more difficult than it is in other games. Walls should require two players to erect, or one player and a vehicle. Logcabins absolutely make sense. Bricks would have to be rare and hard to move. Construction materials should absolutely require a vehicle (i.e you can't run while carrying them). These bigger more-solid player constructed buildings should require more work than barricading but less luck to find the tools needed to build them. Breaching them should be hard too, but not impossible.

One last possibility I'd love is that if you could use the cargo containers down at the docks to build a base. You'd need a rare cargo truck and you'd have to hope you don't get shot getting them out of the city. Risk for reward. You'd also probably need some paint.

[igor-vk 909]

I doubt that this is posible in this engine, but it would cool if we could see materials loaded in trucks/cars (pick-up in future). Like if you see Ural loaded with logs and plancks and follow it and see "huge" base being built. Or if we have to instal/place every component one at the time, no pre-built objects that can fit in backpack (like in epoch/exile). That would chase away all the CoD kids and KOSers from survival servers. And it will give experienced players more things to do. I built base in exile in 15 minutes, but it would be better if it would take days to baricade one barn or weeks to baricade big industriam building.

[Whyherro123 2283]

5 hours ago, puppetworx said:

I think bases should be implemented like vehicles are: if you want a good one it will take a lot of hard work, luck and will be difficult to hold. Holding onto a vehicle for a few days always feels satisfying but holding onto the helicopter feels like you're king of the server. It should be just like that.

In the mod people were forever trying to make a base out of the factory building south-west of Berezino (and failing) or at Devil's Castle (and having little more success). Facilitating barricading of existing buildings like that should definitely be allowed, a king needs his castle. A king doesn't hide in the woods like some little bitch, he parks his chopper on his tower like a gentleman and puts a flag up to let motherfuckers know just whose running that shit. So, barricading is a definite yes.

Like in the mod, these barricades should not be impenetrable and should be breachable with rare tools. Like the way wire fence could be removed with a toolkit similar methods should be available to bypass other barricades whether it's explosives, grappling hooks, ladders (hard to construct), wire cutters etc. Lots of barricading methods could be added, a super rare chain and padlock that you could put on any door would be an amazing addition.

Ideally loot spawns should be reduced close to where barricades exist - even stopped entirely inside of a base - but this has massive potential for trolling. Still, I hope there will be a way to implement this.

On the smaller side of 'bases' I think tents should be quite rare and using a spade to dig a cache is a good idea so long as it has some visibility to players. A frames looks good, I think treehouses would also be great. It's definitely important that tree foliage is more opaque from the sky for all of these things though, it's incredibly easy to find and raid bases with a chopper right now due to to simple tree models.

Bigger than that I'd like to see construction be a lot more difficult than it is in other games. Walls should require two players to erect, or one player and a vehicle. Logcabins absolutely make sense. Bricks would have to be rare and hard to move. Construction materials should absolutely require a vehicle (i.e you can't run while carrying them). These bigger more-solid player constructed buildings should require more work than barricading but less luck to find the tools needed to build them. Breaching them should be hard too, but not impossible.

One last possibility I'd love is that if you could use the cargo containers down at the docks to build a base. You'd need a rare cargo truck and you'd have to hope you don't get shot getting them out of the city. Risk for reward. You'd also probably need some paint.

There are literal stacks of bricks, lumber, roughcut logs and cement slabs all laying around different areas of the map. In no way would any construction material be "rare".

Moving it, on the other hand, would, and should, be a gigantic, throbbing, pain in the ass

[Ugly (DayZ) 79]

This is a fantastic thread. Great discussions.

personally, I think that building a base from scratch should be a huge undertaking, needing multiple people to put the second floor up (sheet metal is heavy AF!), but a single story, walled-in compound should be achievable with a lot of dedication by a single person.

walls could be sheets of metal, logs, or something as flimsy as canvas/tarps (so zombies/animals won't see you, but not much use against human players looking to break in. hell, you should be able to stack bricks if you have enough.

hopefully 8 day persist can be balanced properly.

i think bases big and small should be a part of the game.

[Salty seadog 125]

I dont really see too much benefit from building a base, yet. I think having a few small barrels/ stashes spread around will be more than enough to collect netting/ weapons/ survival gear. Might be useful for storing your heli or car, but If your base gets spotted, no matter how long it takes for people to break in, they will get in.

Ill still try build one though, and I like the direction theyre going with it, but im fairly hesitant ill leave anything of worth inside one. Might just build one in an obnoxious spot like the hospital roof in elektro, see how that pans out!

[smoq2 221]

I'm not sure whether we can even do a realistic guess work regarding the value of having a base at this time - it all boils down to how balanced it will be.

I mean, taking 1 hour or 1 week to break into a base by hammering the door with a sledgehammer alone changes the value of any base basically from meaningless to "all win". Whether we will be able to see the damage done to that door once we log in and can repair it breaking the breaking-in process is another major factor, how long will it actually take to build something decent, etc.

Ideally (IMO) I would image a system, where destroying (breaching) some creation would take roughly the same amount of time it took to build. If it took you a week to build something, it would have to take a week of someone else's time performing some action in order to destroy it. 

[bfisher 561]

On ‎2‎/‎25‎/‎2016 at 3:33 PM, igor-vk said:

You will have to look for servers with mature players and rules

A decently designed and well balanced game shouldn't depend on creating artificial "rules" and hoping that players abide by them.

 

On ‎5‎/‎4‎/‎2016 at 1:01 AM, puppetworx said:

I think bases should be implemented like vehicles are: if you want a good one it will take a lot of hard work, luck and will be difficult to hold. Holding onto a vehicle for a few days always feels satisfying but holding onto the helicopter feels like you're king of the server. It should be just like that.

In the mod people were forever trying to make a base out of the factory building south-west of Berezino (and failing) or at Devil's Castle (and having little more success). Facilitating barricading of existing buildings like that should definitely be allowed, a king needs his castle. A king doesn't hide in the woods like some little bitch, he parks his chopper on his tower like a gentleman and puts a flag up to let motherfuckers know just whose running that shit. So, barricading is a definite yes.

Like in the mod, these barricades should not be impenetrable and should be breachable with rare tools. Like the way wire fence could be removed with a toolkit similar methods should be available to bypass other barricades whether it's explosives, grappling hooks, ladders (hard to construct), wire cutters etc. Lots of barricading methods could be added, a super rare chain and padlock that you could put on any door would be an amazing addition.

Ideally loot spawns should be reduced close to where barricades exist - even stopped entirely inside of a base - but this has massive potential for trolling. Still, I hope there will be a way to implement this.

On the smaller side of 'bases' I think tents should be quite rare and using a spade to dig a cache is a good idea so long as it has some visibility to players. A frames looks good, I think treehouses would also be great. It's definitely important that tree foliage is more opaque from the sky for all of these things though, it's incredibly easy to find and raid bases with a chopper right now due to to simple tree models.

Bigger than that I'd like to see construction be a lot more difficult than it is in other games. Walls should require two players to erect, or one player and a vehicle. Logcabins absolutely make sense. Bricks would have to be rare and hard to move. Construction materials should absolutely require a vehicle (i.e you can't run while carrying them). These bigger more-solid player constructed buildings should require more work than barricading but less luck to find the tools needed to build them. Breaching them should be hard too, but not impossible.

One last possibility I'd love is that if you could use the cargo containers down at the docks to build a base. You'd need a rare cargo truck and you'd have to hope you don't get shot getting them out of the city. Risk for reward. You'd also probably need some paint.

Respectfully, I disagree regarding the "rarity" of things.  Wandering around for hours tediously overturning every rock to find a single tent, HESCO barrier, wire cutter or brick is not "fun".  The materials should be relatively common.  But they should take time to assemble / disassemble.  

They will need to strike a balance between 4 guys turning NWAF into a fortified Green Zone in a half-hour and the Mod where you could spend 16 hours looking for a single sandbag.

Here is what I imagine:

• At the simplest level, players should be able to dig a hole for storing some extra crap in, so long as they have any sort of digging implement.
• Finding fancier stuff like tents or barrels gives you more places to hide stuff
• Keys/lockpicks would let you lock/unlock doors and hammer & nails and some wood would let you close off windows and doors in buildings (or bust into them).

These sort of bases would be useful for single players to create a secure spot to store, say...parts for a car they are assembling or their collection of guns and ammo until they find a match.

 

The big fortified encampments, I don't see that being practical for anyone besides a relatively large clan.  I mean what's the point of spending all weekend building something like that by yourself only to have it occupied by some kids while you're at work?

And, yeah.  I very much expect them to pop up near airfields, military bases and cities.  Any PvP hotspot will now become a PvP hotspot with one clan occupying a fortified base that controls the region like a medieval citadel.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[puppetworx 474]

5 hours ago, bfisher said:

Respectfully, I disagree regarding the "rarity" of things.  Wandering around for hours tediously overturning every rock to find a single tent, HESCO barrier, wire cutter or brick is not "fun".  The materials should be relatively common.  But they should take time to assemble / disassemble.  

It shouldn’t all be about rarity, rarity and challenge need to be balanced. If there is no challenge to using it then the item should be rare, if there’s challenge to using it then it can be more common. Challenge and rarity should both increase as the base type gets bigger/better, just like with vehicles.

I’d like to see hatchets and hammers make a lot more noise also. If you’re boarding up a room, chopping down a tree or breaking in to something it should be a challenge to have to fight off infected and players who come running. Digging a cache should be a piece of piss though since it's the very entry-level type 'base'.

On 5/4/2016 at 11:43 AM, Whyherro123 said:

There are literal stacks of bricks, lumber, roughcut logs and cement slabs all laying around different areas of the map. In no way would any construction material be "rare".

Moving it, on the other hand, would, and should, be a gigantic, throbbing, pain in the ass

Good point. Does the weight of objects currently hurt the speed, acceleration, responsiveness and fuel consumption of vehicles? That would make things much harder.

[igor-vk 909]

Building in dayz will be very hard to balance. It should be complicated to build a Base. It should take a lot of time and resources. Dayz must be different from rust/Ark/epoch/Exile!!  But having base should bring you benefits. You can hide a vehicle in a Base, you can cook food and do crafting without fear of getting sniped. You are safe from zombies and animals. I think it will require a lot of balancing, testing and feedback from players to make it right.

[bfisher 561]

On ‎3‎/‎1‎/‎2016 at 0:28 PM, Cavadus said:

Really, building from scratch and fortifying existing structures should both be options but I think this is the most important feature the game needs right now.  It's legitimate endgame.

That is literally the exact opposite of everything DayZ stands for.  DayZ is an open world survival game where the only goals are to survive as long as possible and what you choose to do while surviving.   There is no "end game" other than your character's death. 

That said, DayZ could stand the introduction of a bit more randomness.  Everyone playing on the same map compared to a procedurally generated random map is great because it gives the community a shared experience of common locations and landmarks.  But it also kind of makes it a bit routine for experienced players.  So maybe base building will help with that.  I like the idea of coming across the ruins of some base where two clans killed themselves fighting over and picking through the scraps.

 

[Whyherro123 2283]

So, I have been playing quite a bit of Rimworld, which is a colony simulator, and by far one of my favorite things to do in that game is build a wooden (read: log) cabin and live off the land.

With that in mind, I still wholeheartedly believe that 1) we should be able to build our own small shelters in Day Z, and that 2) Log cabins should be the maximum of what we are capable of building.

Log cabins are easy to build, "fast" to build, and don't technically require any tools other than an axe. One person can carry a 16foot conifer log with a little effort, and an 8in thick log, when properly chinked, can keep out the worst cold northern Canada/Alaska can throw at you. A 12ft x 16ft cabin can fit 4 people in double bunks (or even more, in a loft), and have enough room for some shelves, some pegs (for clothing), a table and some benches, and a fireplace.  Gunslits, cut into the walls, would allow someone to fire on targets outside (that tinnitus, tho) from relative safety.

If log cabins didn't work, they wouldn't have been used for thousands of years across Europe. No need for cement, cinder blocks, nails. Just an axe, some straight conifers (which are everywhere) in Chernarus, and a ready back. A clan with a couple of members could throw up a reasonably-sized cabin with about a weeks worth of work, and have a weathertight, watertight, warm and comfortable shelter that beats the hell out of living out of a tent or some old busted-out building. Birch-bark sheets (birch trees are also very common in Chernarus) could be used for roofing, or even just a tarp.

This guy below built himself a cabin in a month. 

Coupled with the idea of cabins, and really, "basebuilding" as a whole, I really like the idea of implementing "sleeping quarters".

Now, hear me out. I would much rather not see our characters stay in-game when we log out. I have seen how it works in games that do have it, and they tend to be shit. No, instead, the "sleeping quarters" system would be a means of fostering community on a server, and give your character and base a sense of permanence and purpose, other than storing gear. Depending on the "facilities" you have in the location you log out in, next time you log back in after a decent amount of time, ( I like 6+ hours, so you log out at midnight and log back in at 8am in real time) you get a bonus to health and to stamina regen. For example, you "sleep" (read: log out) in the woods, on the ground, and you log in with your hunger/hydration/energy bar empty (not negative, but empty), and your stamina starts out low. "Sleep" in gradually better conditions ( spreading boughs/leaves beneath you in a shelter, use a sleeping bag, or sleep on a mattress), and when you spawn in, you spawn back in with gradually-increased hunger/hydration/energy bars, to represent you getting more of a restful sleep.

Being under cover (inside a tent/shelter, or inside a building) and increasing the temperature (building a fire) would also lead to greater levels of comfort. 

This wouldn't exactly punish players that don't want to build a base (asides from starting out neutral, energy/food/water-wise, but those are easy enough to fix), but it would give someone a reason to want to build a base, or even just a lean-to in the woods. 

Now, of course, "going to sleep" when starving or dying of dehydration won't fix anything, the character would have to be, at most, stat-neutral for all this to work. 

-ground: starts out stat-neutral

-"improvised bed" - piles of boughs/leaves: dark green food and water

-sleeping bag : light green food and water

-Mattress: light green food and water, dark green energized.

Just as a little nod to realism.