Map size and design, regarding player camps

[themightylc 56]

I want to elaborate on a topic again that was discussed here: https://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/226510-increase-map-size/

 

Background:

Last night we were scouting for a good camp site on a private hive and while doing so we encountered several camps from other players. Some hidden well, some not so much. Some with high end gear, some not so much. All(!) of them with a collection of Blackskull masks. Seeing those camps got me thinking: why do we keep on stumbling across other camps, while ours stays untouched for weeks on end. 

• Easy to find. All other camps were near some road, remote but still easy to find (to benefit the owner i suppose)
• Easy to spot. Not a single one of them bothered to look for a "dark forest"
• Too big and unorganized. There were camps that looked like a pure show off. 12+ civilian tents with NOTHING in them (zero items), accompanied by one or two overstuffed military tents that contained all kinds of crap.

To make a good camp it comes down to determination and time spent scouting and actually traveling to and from a remote and well-hidden location. DayZ is supposed to be a hard, unforgiving, skill-based game. Reflexes and awareness can give you an edge in shootout-situations. Navigational skills and determination should give you an edge in securing your improvised base.

 

This is not possible right now:

The current map size bothers me to an extent, that actually might severely impact the enjoyment of the game for me if it's not changed by 1.0 (It was something to brag about three years ago... not so much anymore) there is not enough room to build camps.

 

Imho a good and easy to implement solution would be to extend the map along the northern and western borders with a vast forest area. It does not have to be infinite, but it should expand in one direction at least as far as the map is at the moment, quadrupling the current size. This forest should have water sources, not too many, preferably in the form of long rivers.

The edge of the map should not be recognizable from far away - in my opinion an invisible wall, padded by more forest to the end of sight, would be preferable to a "stone wall" or something similar, just to keep a sense of disorientation. I could imagine something like an uncrossable chasm or river - just something that can only be seen when you almost step into it. If that sound's too crazy I'd still prefer an invisible wall.

Navigating with the help of landmarks ("I know this tree, this stone etc.") will be hard. A slip of the compass for just a few degrees could result in being tens of kilometers from where you wanted to end up. Crossing this by foot would be very challenging and impossible without proper preparation. Random chasms, steep hills and dense woods would make it very hard to navigate through here by car, though the dirt bikes would be the shining stars.

Wildlife should be spawning there to a greater extent than in the main area, making life there dangerous and trips to the "civilization" for medical supplies a must.

 

In my opinion, this would enhance the "survival" aspect of this "survival" game to an enormous extent and open up totally new playstyles. And to almost negligible development-cost, I must add. Painting a big, random-y forest with a few rivers cannot be that challenging for the talented art-team.

I cannot stress enough how mush i think this is essential to the feel of DayZ as I have come to know and love it. If we build bases on a map as small as this, with a population of 100 players and above per server, this will be Rust all over again. And imo, it really shouldn't be.

 

TL;DR: after finalizing the intended design, the map should be expanded with a huge, foresty area for players to build camps, get lost in and die of starvation. Only the clever survivors will prevail there.

[Bororm 1156]

The map can't and isn't going to be expanded so you can count that out.  I'd normally provide you links but it's late and I'm tired, the topic has been touched on a lot though and you should be able to find it.  I believe the gist of it was that expanding the map screws up all the coordinates for already placed objects/buildings.  So it's not really possible.

 

I think the focus is just going to shift from "hiding" camps to building forts.  We'll have working landmines and traps to help with defense when we're not online.

It's either that route or doing stashes.  Barrels are extremely easy to hide.

 

Tents just aren't viable for hiding.  They weren't in the mod, and there they were way more concealable.

Edited January 20, 2016 by Bororm

[pilgrim* 3514]

^

Unfortunately, under the Rules - the easiest way to protect your tents, forts, vehicles etc is just to turn your server OFF when your clan is not on line.

In case I'm wrong
PLEASE tell me I'm wrong

thanx

 

xx pilgrim

Edited January 20, 2016 by pilgrim

[philippj 103]

It was not mentioned that they are going to expand the map, but last year a screenshot with the new renderer of namalsk was shown in a status report.

I hope they are going the way of adding new islands with different layout and weather conditions (like namalsk).

[thedoctorlome1 6]

https://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/231194-how-can-we-fix-camping/#

[thedoctorlome1 6]

In this forum Smoss talks about map expansion

[S3V3N 1402]

My camps almost never get found and I never place them anywhere near the edge of the map, either. There are even some places in towns where you can put camps at and people will walk right by them. People often misjudge the amount of space available in the less-traveled areas and around mountains. The problem is, these areas are often not well-accessible and too remote from any good loot locations, so they won't be used more, until we have more reliable and easier to maintain vehicles (bikes, etc). To me it is a challenge to find actually good places to camp at, and I've been doing this since Arma II's mods, so I've had camps discovered and rebuild them in a better place. It's trial and error, but there will never be a camp that cannot be found. If you make a huge uniform forest area around the map, all you'll achieve is yourself and others getting lost and people spreading out there for dull hours just looking for camps. 

 

There will be bases, so if a camp isn't big enough or gets too big to be hidden at all that's the next option. Of course bases will be broken into, but there will be ways to protect them, at least. Personally, I prefer many small stashes and will leave the big base building to others. I've had a camp on a pretty crowded server for over a month now and nobody found it, yet. Admittedly, it's the best place I ever build at, so I can't give it away. But if you run around towns and think about places you never visit there, you are already close to having found a great spot; there just isn't a perfect spot.  

Edited January 20, 2016 by S3V3N

[LoveAffair 329]

The map can't and isn't going to be expanded so you can count that out.  I'd normally provide you links but it's late and I'm tired, the topic has been touched on a lot though and you should be able to find it.  I believe the gist of it was that expanding the map screws up all the coordinates for already placed objects/buildings.  So it's not really possible.

 

I think the focus is just going to shift from "hiding" camps to building forts.  We'll have working landmines and traps to help with defense when we're not online.

It's either that route or doing stashes.  Barrels are extremely easy to hide.

 

Tents just aren't viable for hiding.  They weren't in the mod, and there they were way more concealable.

Tents were not viable in the MOD , because of helicopters. They looked like BIG WHITE BOXES from the sky no matter how well hidden. One guy in one heli could wipe out every base on an entire map in about 1 hour. The same will happen here with barrels and tents once they add the Horrible little bird. Stash hiding is OVER. Mabey if they add that buried stash people will be able to squirrel away a few things but that heli will end the collection of gear. Bear traps and landmines are not persistent so that help is out the window. Walls will not help when you can hover over a camp and hop out of a heli right inside the camp.

Edited January 20, 2016 by LoveAffair

[S3V3N 1402]

Tents were not viable in the MOD , because of helicopters. They looked like BIG WHITE BOXES from the sky no matter how well hidden. One guy in one heli could wipe out every base on an entire map in about 1 hour. The same will happen here with barrels and tents once they add the Horrible little bird. Stash hiding is OVER. Mabey if they add that buried stash people will be able to squirrel away a few things but that heli will end the collection of gear. Bear traps and landmines are not persistent so that help is out the window. Walls will not help when you can hover over a camp and hop out of a heli right inside the camp.

Hmm, but in the mods they had the pretty terrible LOD system from Arma. So things would pop up at different times and be visible from miles away, before the rest of the scenery even loaded in. I'm thinking that when we have particles added and maybe some ground fog, there will be places where you can hide a camp pretty well. Even on foot you have to get quite close to spot a tent. And with a heli, flying that low could be a real risk. I agree though that the little bird is the perfect tool for spotting camps. It's made to fly low, you can put people to spot on each side and it can land on a piece of paper, it's so small. I also expect we can rappel down at some point. I've been wondering, if maybe the devs will opt to not show camps from out of the air, because that's the only way to stop people abusing the choppers for camp hunting. I also don't see how currently you could stop someone from landing inside your base, unless you mine the place and renew the mines every fooking day; risking to blow yourself up in the process aswell... There are a lot of issues I have with the camp creation versus realistic gameplay (visuality) at the moment. 

 

One thing I can think of is that there may be more rewarding places created in the future, which can only be reached by chopper; or which can also be reached by boat, but require a more dangerous route. At the same time, aviation fuel would have to be so limited that it forces you to make a decision: go looking for bases and risk getting shot. Or go to the unique places to pick up gear you can't find elsewhere and save your chopper for later. However, at some point even the most unique places have been razed and the chopper pilots will go about finding camps. There really is no way of thinking around that, just minimizing the damage. It's a great thing to fly in the mods every once in a while, but the problem I have with it in the mods is: either you have too many choppers in the air, so nobody takes a car any more, or you have too few choppers and everyone will hunt you and shoot at you, making it a pain in the ass to fly around and refuel. I guess the latter is what will happen in Dayz and choppers will probably only make sense to be used for clans who can protect them. Which means most players will not even be able to fly around and are then also subjected to people assaulting them and their camps from the air. But what can we do? It's a much requested feature and I don't think the devs yet think about the long-term consequences of features they're adding. 

Edited January 20, 2016 by S3V3N

[themightylc 56]

My camps almost never get found 

 

Do you play on a private hive? It's a big difference in my opinion, playing a high-pop-server on public, where population still changes all the time, or a private server, that is full every night, where people actually are bound to have seen THE WHOLE MAP (I've seen it). Once a location is known, it's compromised. That's my main stance on this.

 

https://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/231194-how-can-we-fix-camping/#

 

Ugh, now that I've read that I know how much hate I'm gonna attract, but nevermind. I stand by what I've said.

 

One thing I can think of is that there may be more rewarding places created in the future, which can only be reached by chopper; or which can also be reached by boat, but require a more dangerous route. 

 

Where? If the map cannot be expanded?

[Espa 711]

I believe the map will be expanded, but only after core features have been presented. I actually thing that it could expand in all directions and have islands of interesting loot, as well as heavily infected/radioactive locations that will be terrifying to go through.

 

This game has a lot of potential for that sort of thing, but we can't lose sight of what has already been achieved (A damn sizable map) as well as the many things that are promised. So for now, it's a wait and see thing.

 

If you really want to help out, draw up some designs and feature them in a sexy way - Don't just ask for new places, make them as a key for the Devs.

[themightylc 56]

This game has a lot of potential for that sort of thing, but we can't lose sight of what has already been achieved (A damn sizable map) as well as the many things that are promised. So for now, it's a wait and see thing.

 

If you really want to help out, draw up some designs and feature them in a sexy way - Don't just ask for new places, make them as a key for the Devs.

The "damn sizeable map" has not been achived in any way. It came with Arma 2, a game published in 2009. Back then it was big, but ridiculously empty. By today's standards it's nothing short of embarrasing. What the DayZ developers have done is make the buildings enterable and built new cities, with a handful of cool new designs, but 80~90% using the same old assets.

 

And frankly - and I don't mean offense myself, but this 'let's put a lot of effort in this to make this game more fantastic' attitude, as sweet, honest and admirable as it may be actually offends me a little bit: I'm not going to draw sh** and feature it in no way whatsoever! I have a day job and so do the developers. BI should invest the millions upon millions they have made with the EA and hire a professional forest-drafter if they so desire. They don't need me as a random forum user for that. Sweet Jesus.  <_<

 

Also: how can you say "wait and see" in the same post as "make a sexy presentation"... I don't even...

Edited January 20, 2016 by TheMightyLC

[Espa 711]

Haha you're free to do as you please, buddy. Only offering you an outlet to actually voice your opinion that doesn't sound like a whine.

 

Yes, they've got their job and I hope they are making plans as you desire - and the rest of us desire.

 

Just stating, it may actually help out to really feature what you'd like in a way that another could see and go, "Oh wow! That -is- super nice. We should have that." Essentially, where even the Devs would have the same reaction and decide to go in that direction.

 

It's still no promise, but more than simply asking for it without any detailed iteration. 

[Bororm 1156]

Tents were not viable in the MOD , because of helicopters. They looked like BIG WHITE BOXES from the sky no matter how well hidden. One guy in one heli could wipe out every base on an entire map in about 1 hour. The same will happen here with barrels and tents once they add the Horrible little bird. Stash hiding is OVER. Mabey if they add that buried stash people will be able to squirrel away a few things but that heli will end the collection of gear. Bear traps and landmines are not persistent so that help is out the window. Walls will not help when you can hover over a camp and hop out of a heli right inside the camp.

 

Some of that is subject to change/already a little bit different.

 

We have no guarantee parachuting will be a thing in the SA and potentially you could just make your fort in some trees to solve people dropping in.  Or else perhaps there will be some other defense against that we can build.  I do share concerns for that particular thing though, I brought it up when the concept for base building was shown I think.  It's just another reason why I really wish they'd have done base building earlier so we could see the balance issues.

 

Traps could easily be made persistent, and I expect they will be.

 

Tents currently don't render in beyond about 100-150m.  That's still enough that a low flying helicopter will definitely have an advantage of seeing them, but it's potentially far enough that it won't be any where near the problem it was in the mod.  Tents in the mod were still easier to hide though because you could clip them into objects.  Any ways, the point returns to the fact that tents just aren't viable to conceal in the SA.  We'll have to see how barrels render from above.  Keep in mind, the new renderer could potentially create a situation where they can force a LOD on trees finally (haven't heard anything about that but we can hope ;) )

[themightylc 56]

Just stating, it may actually help out to really feature what you'd like in a way that another could see and go, "Oh wow! That -is- super nice. We should have that." 

Do you mean feature in beautiful colors?

 

I'm just teasing. I'm a cranky old dude envying your enthusiasm. And also maybe your spare time ;)  It's just after close to 600hrs of DayZ (even with 3 months abstinence) you start seeing things a little less colorful. My enthusiams towards this wonderful survival-diamond you can still see has made way for a more grounded worrying what will actually be accomplished until 1.0. And a few core pillars have never really been adressed directly by the devs imo. Nobody knows what's supposed to become of the plug-ugly abomination that is "the edge of the map" yet, as far as i know.

Edited January 20, 2016 by TheMightyLC

[Espa 711]

Do you mean feature in beautiful colors?

 

I'm just teasing. I'm a cranky old dude envying your enthusiasm. And also maybe your spare time ;)  It's just after close to 600hrs of DayZ (even with 3 months abstinence) you start seeing things a little less colorful. My enthusiams towards this wonderful survival-diamond you can still see has made way for a more grounded worrying what will actually be accomplished until 1.0. And a few core pillars have never really been adressed directly by the devs imo. Nobody knows what's supposed to become of the plug-ugly abomination that is "the edge of the map" yet, as far as i know.

 

Haha believe me, I understand how you feel, even if I'm just a bit over a third of your game time. I've been seething before at the pace of this game and the things that just don't make sense, or rather. . The inane waste that has been given to guns and clothing over the core features I WANT to see.

 

I'm with you with a much larger map - Perhaps one I can never fully explore unless I play for days and days at a time, but even then may never be explored fully if base building and the like changes the scenery often.

[thefriendlydutchman 160]

to the guy saying that it will move all cords, this should be fixable

 

lets say I expand the terrain 500m to the left, than all buildings go 500m to the left correct?

so just select all buildings and move them 500m in the opposite direction

[S3V3N 1402]

Do you play on a private hive? It's a big difference in my opinion, playing a high-pop-server on public, where population still changes all the time, or a private server, that is full every night, where people actually are bound to have seen THE WHOLE MAP (I've seen it). Once a location is known, it's compromised. That's my main stance on this.

I play on both, 1p is public and the 3p is private. I'm not a fan of completely full servers, but the private hive is actually fuller on the weekend than most 1p servers ever get. I have a strategy of decoy camp building and I also build inside and on top of houses a lot. There are a lot of industrial structures nobody walks/climbs onto at the moment. I even build in churches and temporarily inside the gym (though the gym is not a good place at all - it just looks fun). I'm not going to name my best spots, as you will find those yourself over time. I also doubt you are really exploring the whole map, because there are areas around Gorka/Berezino and from Ratnoe to Krasnostav which are hardly ever visited, have a great deal of (small) lakes and rivers that aren't on the map (good for hunting!) and patches of dense forest or rock to hide your camp at.

 

Like I said - eventually every camp gets found, but you can hide them much better than most people do. It's just a matter of identifying the routes you never walked yourself. In a way, placing a camp is the most counter-intuitive thing to do, because your brain will always tell you "this is a great spot". It really takes some resisting the impulse to set up camp as quickly as possible, because once you do, you start filling them up and then can't move anymore. It also helps to make a decoy or "public camp" not too far from your own camp, where you can store all the lesser needed/less valuable items and which you can set up for trading (with a message in a tent). 

 

The map is still huge and in fact, it's 4x larger than anything else I've seen played, including Fallout 4. Sure, there are no instances or underground areas, like in e.g. Ark, but this is already a very large map. Take into account that at some point there will be a stamina system, so people can't just blaze about the map as they wish any more. It will also be harder to keep yourself healthy and fed, creating further obstacles for the marathon-camp-seeker. Of course, at the same time we'll have more vehicles, so that will even things out a bit. But I think with the future options and hopefully some new items (like camo-nets and traps) to camoflage our camps better, we won't have too much trouble keeping our tents a lot safer than now. The only trouble I have is that I'll most likely blow myself up with my own traps much more than anyone looking for my camps ;)

Edited January 21, 2016 by S3V3N

[pilgrim* 3514]

 ..//

.. have a strategy of decoy camp building and I also build inside and ..//..

t. There are a lot of

...structures nobody walks/climbs onto at the moment

...//..

 

Hey don't give it all away dude,!! you already list half a dozen places no one looks except by mistake.  I hope your post is just a decoy inside a decoy right? - But it definitely demonstrates  the kind of original thinking (that a lot of players don't do) that gives you the best chance.  Ive been playing a long time and I thought there were a couple of GOOD ideas right there. beanz.- These are pointers to what can be done.

[Espa 711]

I just found a Clan's Base, I'm assuming. . 10 Tents, 8 Barrels, 3 Medical Tents, 2 Cars. I felt like I hit the lottery.

 

If it was easier to upload a pic, I'd show y'all.

 

Anyway, left a note in a barrel saying, "Dear Friends, I love you. Be Excellent to Yourselves."

 

And with that I stole an AK, a Silenced Pistol, a VSS, hundreds in ammo, and a car. :wub:

 

Maybe the Map does need to get bigger, eventually. . But Base Building would have surely helped these people from me trouncing in randomly and finding their treasure trove.

[fing24 36]

I would like to see a bigger map with more places to hide camps,  I only use tents as decoys as they are to easy to find.  Barrels are my preferred storage option as they are easier to hide. I also spread them out. I was on a high pop server and some of my stashes lasted at least a month before being found.   What got me was it was the more well hidden barrels that were found.  You had to walk into them to find them they were not visible any other way.  And I go for once a place is found it is compromised. And as I'm an inquisitive person I go most places and I do think is this a place people will go.  Due to that I have found some stashes.  Although after sevens comments I will have to look a bit harder to find that sweet spot  :)

[Bororm 1156]

When my barrels get found I put even better stuff in them.  Show those guys you aren't going to compromise.

[themightylc 56]

Well to be frank: We are exquisite at hiding camps. They last forever. I have traveled and seen every inch of the map. It's still (way!) to small for private hives.