Reduce semi-auto fire rate

[BeefBacon 1185]

I've not fired a gun before and I know very little about guns, but it seems to me as though the fire rate of weapons like the SKS is too damn high. It seems to fire as quickly as you can click, but surely you can't pull a trigger as quickly as you can click?

 

The SKS can very easily be turned into a full-auto weapon (or effectively full-auto) which doesn't seem quite right, especially since it's quite powerful and doesn't require a magazine. The delay between each shot should be small (maybe .25 a second) but significant enough to prevent people from firing off 10 rounds in one second.

 

This should go for all semi-automatic weapons with different (very short) delays for each weapon or weapon type. Pistols, for example, should have an extremely short delay (as they probably already do). This shouldn't affect the double fire mode of the blaze and the shotgun or the full-auto modes of other weapons.

 

Of course correct me if I'm wrong - there may already be a fire-rate for semi-autos.

[-Gews- 7443]

You're right, it's easier to spam mouse clicks than to pull a long trigger that might weigh 10 lbs or more. With a fast finger people can easily spam it at the max 600 rpm. 300-350 might be more realistic.

 

This should go for all semi-automatic weapons with different (very short) delays for each weapon or weapon type. Pistols, for example, should have an extremely short delay (as they probably already do). This shouldn't affect the double fire mode of the blaze and the shotgun or the full-auto modes of other weapons.

Pistols shouldn't be any faster than rifles.

Also, unrelated topic, I'm not a big fan of those double fire modes either as it's not two shots at once, it's two shots full auto - 6000 rpm - except it's frame rate dependent, high frames and it works okay, low frames and the recoil will send the second shot over the target. For me it's kind of immersion-breaking and makes the character seem mechanical. I'd rather they just make people shoot twice. And then also, read the description of the "Blaze 95"...

[rybec 339]

Semiautomatic chambers a new cartridge in the blink of an eye. A person isn't going to pull a trigger twice before it cycles. With a bit of practice you can magdump an SKS very quickly. I can't say I'm anywhere near as accurate as waiting about one second to fire the another. Depends on the trigger really. I've tried some friend's rifles where the trigger pull is so light it is very easy to shoot faster than normal. In comparison the only time I've ever tried a Suomi M31 the trigger pull was horrifyingly bad.

 

Back to what you were saying though, controlling 7.62x39 is easier than you think. It's not going to throw you around and make it harder to fire again.

[nl 986]

You can fire the SKS pretty fast:

 

 

Actually quite comparable with my rate of fire in this vid:

 

Edited July 25, 2015 by SAK

[BeefBacon 1185]

Also, unrelated topic, I'm not a big fan of those double fire modes either as it's not two shots at once, it's two shots full auto - 6000 rpm - except it's frame rate dependent, high frames and it works okay, low frames and the recoil will send the second shot over the target. For me it's kind of immersion-breaking and makes the character seem mechanical. I'd rather they just make people shoot twice. And then also, read the description of the "Blaze 95"...

 

Well I'd only exempt them because I assume that you're pulling two triggers at once or something. Had no idea it was frame dependent - I hate when games do that. Also I assumed pistols are easier to fire or something. Again, not a gun guy.

 

 

Actually quite comparable with my rate of fire in this vid:

 

 

It seems that you're firing faster than that chap in the video. Again (to my knowledge - I'd test it but I'm bad at DayZ) the SKS can fire as fast as you an click. For most people that's crazy fast. Hell, there's nothing stopping you from mapping fire to the mousewheel and dumping rounds like that, I'm sure.

 

Semiautomatic chambers a new cartridge in the blink of an eye. A person isn't going to pull a trigger twice before it cycles. With a bit of practice you can magdump an SKS very quickly. I can't say I'm anywhere near as accurate as waiting about one second to fire the another. Depends on the trigger really. I've tried some friend's rifles where the trigger pull is so light it is very easy to shoot faster than normal. In comparison the only time I've ever tried a Suomi M31 the trigger pull was horrifyingly bad.

 

Back to what you were saying though, controlling 7.62x39 is easier than you think. It's not going to throw you around and make it harder to fire again.

 

My issue isn't with the recoil. Unless a trigger is modified to be extremely light, nobody is going to be able to fire a semi-automatic as quickly as you can in DayZ. Given that these are weapons we're finding off the ground it can probably be assumed that these weapons haven't been customised to allow for extremely fast trigger action.

 

Even disregarding an argument from realism, it helps to balance the SKS which is quite accurate at range, can effectively be fired full-auto and doesn't require a magazine. Weapons should be balanced as little as possible, of course, but in this case it seems to make sense.

Edited July 25, 2015 by BeefBacon

[-Gews- 7443]

Semiautomatic chambers a new cartridge in the blink of an eye. A person isn't going to pull a trigger twice before it cycles. With a bit of practice you can magdump an SKS very quickly. [...]

You can fire the SKS pretty fast: [...]

 

Anyone can click a mouse faster than he can pull and reset a trigger so this...

 

"It seems to fire as quickly as you can click, but surely you can't pull a trigger as quickly as you can click?"

...is true. It's easy to click 600 rpm.

 

 

There is a problem to consider. Let's say the semi-automatic "reloadTime" is set at 0.18 sec (333 rpm). That's the intended fire rate in semi-automatic. A player clicks at 8 clicks per second. It would look like this:

 

 

You can see the actual fire rate achieved is about 30% slower than the intended fire rate, so they have to take this into account.

[rybec 339]

My issue isn't with the recoil.

Let me rephrase that. I can fire the SKS very quickly as it's not shaking around much. I can't fire my M305 quite as fast as the recoil throws you off a little.

 

Let's take a .22 as an example. It's very easy to fire quickly because you're not being moved by the rifle at all.

[BeefBacon 1185]

Let me rephrase that. I can fire the SKS very quickly as it's not shaking around much. I can't fire my M305 quite as fast as the recoil throws you off a little.

 

Let's take a .22 as an example. It's very easy to fire quickly because you're not being moved by the rifle at all.

 

I see. That also formed part of my reasoning for pistols having a slightly faster fire rate. Again, not a gun guy. I wouldn't have a problem with pistols, the sporter or any similar weapons having a slightly faster fire rate than weapons like the SKS. If it's realistic (maybe it is, I have no idea what I'm talking about) then great, but it's also beneficial from a balance standpoint.

 

However, on the subject of balance, I do have a bit of conflict concerning whether there should really be any. Traditional games tend to have all weapons have some advantages and some drawbacks, making all weapons more or less equally effective with a few notable exceptions (hence balance). DayZ isn't a traditional game, so that makes it harder to balance while also keeping the game authentic. In the case of the SKS (I guess specifically at this point since my main problem is with the SKS) it would be balanced on grounds of authenticity since, as I already mentioned, people can't physically pull the trigger that quickly.

Edited July 25, 2015 by BeefBacon

[BCBasher 2465]

When I got my SKS I took it out to the shop and spent hours getting the Cosmoline (nasty smelling storage grease) out of all the nooks and crannies. I soaked the trigger group in solvent then dry graphite lubed it making it work silky smooth. Granted mine is pinned at 5rd as per Canadian restrictions but if I hold my trigger hand and finger loose I can get it to bump fire, a trick that works on blowback paintball guns to get simulated auto fire. I don't know where it is but I have video of it firing 7rds (my mag is loose and one round chambered I can cheat) in under 2 seconds, roughly 200-300rpm.

 

You are wrong about it being able to be converted to a true full auto though, that's why we can get them here. It has a very complicated trigger group that can not be converted to full auto with modification or parts substitution and is difficult/dangerous to disassemble or modify without special tools and knowledge. The trigger group is modular though and I'm sure someone out there has made a new one with full auto but that's something that would get you some actual jail time here. 

[BCBasher 2465]

Found this, it starts "bump"firing after the 1st shot.

 

http://youtu.be/yxdYg_JkB-A?t=3m20s

[atempleton 123]

Semi automatics rechamber as quickly as full autos, with the SKS having a theoretical firing rate of probably 600rpm - enough to dump a mag in one second.

When bump firing, it's very possible to achieve close to this firing rate, and honestly nobody will notice a difference if there was a very short delay before firing again. You gotta keep in mind the SKS has only a 10 round magazine that you can't instant reload without stripper clips, which is a considerable drawback when firing so rapidly as you will find yourself with an empty gun.

[atempleton 123]

https://youtu.be/CL_6KU6e19I

[BCBasher 2465]

https://youtu.be/CL_6KU6e19I

 

Wow, that guy is brave/stupid with the violent vertical ejection of spent shells. I tried burst firing mine under the tin awning at the range and got pelted in the head by the shell ricocheting off the ceiling. 

[rybec 339]

When I got my SKS I took it out to the shop and spent hours getting the Cosmoline

That's such a nice part about having old Russian rifles. There are few smells I enjoy more than the mix of burnt powder and cosmoline after shooting.

[BCBasher 2465]

That's such a nice part about having old Russian rifles. There are few smells I enjoy more than the mix of burnt powder and cosmoline after shooting.

 

Gross, gimme your address and I'll send you the the tin of the shit that came in the cleaning kit and pouches for the stripper clips, lol.

 

I love the cheap sardine cans of ammo that go on sale for them, I just wanted something for plinking and a .22 AR clone was $400+ but got my SKS and 880rds for under $300. 

[BeefBacon 1185]

Found this, it starts "bump"firing after the 1st shot.

 

http://youtu.be/yxdYg_JkB-A?t=3m20s

 

Yet still not as fast as it can be fired in-game, even though you've lubed up the trigger. Again, these are weapons we find lying around - there's nothing to suggest that they'd have been modified or cleaned or whatever to facilitate rapid fire - and if they had it would have been weeks or months since then.

 

https://youtu.be/CL_6KU6e19I

 

That's... quite the firing pose.

 

I'd like to reiterate that I'm not doubting that the mechanism inside the weapon could fire off a billion rounds a second. I'm sure it's faster than light and a mini black hole is created every time the gun fires it's so fast. The issue is that people cannot physically operate a trigger at the same speed that somebody can click a mouse button. I'm sure that if they contort their hands into some fell shape and point the gun at the moon while doing a headstand and praying to Khorne that the trigger is smooth they could get a pretty fast rate of fire, but DayZ doesn't simulate that. That being the case, it makes sense to simulate human fallibility by way of a short delay between shots.

[BCBasher 2465]

Yet still not as fast as it can be fired in-game, even though you've lubed up the trigger. Again, these are weapons we find lying around - there's nothing to suggest that they'd have been modified or cleaned or whatever to facilitate rapid fire - and if they had it would have been weeks or months since then.

 

 

That's... quite the firing pose.

 

I'd like to reiterate that I'm not doubting that the mechanism inside the weapon could fire off a billion rounds a second. I'm sure it's faster than light and a mini black hole is created every time the gun fires it's so fast. The issue is that people cannot physically operate a trigger at the same speed that somebody can click a mouse button. I'm sure that if they contort their hands into some fell shape and point the gun at the moon while doing a headstand and praying to Khorne that the trigger is smooth they could get a pretty fast rate of fire, but DayZ doesn't simulate that. That being the case, it makes sense to simulate human fallibility by way of a short delay between shots.

 

I wasn't necessarily disagreeing with you and other games do cap the rof on semis, they might not have implemented it yet being this game isn't done yet. No one is going to effectively get the theoretical max of the guns action but a a cap of 300rpm would be reasonable. Next time I have my hands on one in game I'll make a no pauses macro on my keyboard just to see the what the sks can do currently not that I think it would be effective with the small cap mag and muzzle climb. Your original suggestion of .25sec delay or 4rds/sec 240rd/min isn't that far off the average rapid fire examples with a proper shooting stance really.

[rybec 339]

Gross, gimme your address and I'll send you the the tin of the shit that came in the cleaning kit and pouches for the stripper clips, lol.

You live near Nanaimo? :3

[BCBasher 2465]

You live near Nanaimo? :3

Lol, yes.

Just outside chemainus.

[-Gews- 7443]

In the case of the SKS (I guess specifically at this point since my main problem is with the SKS) it would be balanced on grounds of authenticity since, as I already mentioned, people can't physically pull the trigger that quickly.

 

It will be more authentic but I don't think it will change the balance much if at all. Shooting that fast the rounds often miss or sometimes don't register. The same people in the same situations will still have the same outcomes.

Semi automatics rechamber as quickly as full autos, with the SKS having a theoretical firing rate of probably 600rpm - enough to dump a mag in one second.

SKS can do 900 rpm but that's missing the point, it's irrelevant.

[Evil Minion 943]

Of course correct me if I'm wrong - there may already be a fire-rate for semi-autos.

There is - most of those values are comparable or longer than the fire rate of full auto weapons (for example it's 0.1s for the SKS and 0.3s for the Magnum while the AKM has 0.1s rate of fire). Now as you need to click for every shot you end up shooting much slower most of the time even though in theory you could fire at the same rate as many full auto weapons. I believe you cannot queue shots so clicking within this time frame simply does nothing - which means you don't only need 600 clicks per minute but you also have to time them perfectly within fractions of a second.

[pale1776 375]

You're right, it's easier to spam mouse clicks than to pull a long trigger that might weigh 10 lbs or more. With a fast finger people can easily spam it at the max 600 rpm. 300-350 might be more realistic.

Pistols shouldn't be any faster than rifles.

Also, unrelated topic, I'm not a big fan of those double fire modes either as it's not two shots at once, it's two shots full auto - 6000 rpm - except it's frame rate dependent, high frames and it works okay, low frames and the recoil will send the second shot over the target. For me it's kind of immersion-breaking and makes the character seem mechanical. I'd rather they just make people shoot twice. And then also, read the description of the "Blaze 95"...

Eh, my AR15 has a 4 pound trigger, my Remington 700 has a 2 1/2 pound trigger (adjustable to 6 ounces) and the Sig P226 I'm buying will be fitted with a custom 5 1/2 pound trigger.

So basically all my guns (except for the bolt action 700) I can shoot as fast as I can pull the trigger. Somewhat accurately, roughly all of my shots land on the target 50 yards away when I pull the trigger to a cadence (180 beats/shot per minute). IRL its more of a knowing how your gun reacts each shot and learning how to counter recoil. I know you know this though :p

But yeah, ingame there HAS to be a way to prevent mouse spam. Because even if I set my AR15s trigger to 6 ounces, there's NO WAY it can shoot as fast as I can click. Unless I buy a full auto sear :p

Edited July 27, 2015 by Owen.

[atempleton 123]

Bump firing is semi automatic fire manually pulling the trigger. It's simply utilizing the recoil of the gun to help you pull the trigger faster.

Jerry Miculek if I recall faster fired off 6 shots in 0.8 seconds with a double action revolver, and double action with a revolver is a slower and heavier action than semi automatic, because the trigger pull has to turn the cylinder, cock the hammer and release the hammer all at once, whereas semi automatic requires merely the releasing of the hammer and the gun does the rest.

It can be done. And a fire rate stopper isn't going to make a difference, considering the delay wouldn't be noticeable and someone firing that fast is probably going to completely miss anyway.

[BeefBacon 1185]

Bump firing is semi automatic fire manually pulling the trigger. It's simply utilizing the recoil of the gun to help you pull the trigger faster.

 

Every video I can find of SKS 'bump fire' has the person firing from the hip and using, I guess, their thumb. I found two videos featuring a regular firing stance, aiming down sights and such, and they have fore grips, special stocks, modified triggers, all sorts - yet they can barely keep up with the fire rate in-game.

 

I found a video of a chap who was firing some bolt action rifle at about 2 rounds a second. That doesn't mean the Mosin or the Winchester should be able to fire that quickly.

 

When people panic fire the SKS it's not at range - it's usually inside of a building. At that range, you're unlikely to miss when you can dump 10 rounds almost as quickly as you can click. The SKS sits in the middle ground between military and civilian weapons. It can be fired very quickly, it doesn't require a magazine, it's accurate and it's quite powerful. It's also not uncommon. That being the case it is arguably the best gun in the game, in terms of bang for buck, as it is effective in all scenarios. Given that the in-game fire rate can only be matched in real life in extremely specific circumstances it makes sense to lower the fire rate both on grounds of authenticity and on grounds of weapon balance.

[pale1776 375]

Every video I can find of SKS 'bump fire' has the person firing from the hip and using, I guess, their thumb. I found two videos featuring a regular firing stance, aiming down sights and such, and they have fore grips, special stocks, modified triggers, all sorts - yet they can barely keep up with the fire rate in-game.

I found a video of a chap who was firing some bolt action rifle at about 2 rounds a second. That doesn't mean the Mosin or the Winchester should be able to fire that quickly.

When people panic fire the SKS it's not at range - it's usually inside of a building. At that range, you're unlikely to miss when you can dump 10 rounds almost as quickly as you can click. The SKS sits in the middle ground between military and civilian weapons. It can be fired very quickly, it doesn't require a magazine, it's accurate and it's quite powerful. It's also not uncommon. That being the case it is arguably the best gun in the game, in terms of bang for buck, as it is effective in all scenarios. Given that the in-game fire rate can only be matched in real life in extremely specific circumstances it makes sense to lower the fire rate both on grounds of authenticity and on grounds of weapon balance.

Your right, however that's one guy who has an ungodly finger (heh, lady Killer I bet)

And the bolt rifle, ehhh. I'm in between on that due to the fact that I can shoot, work the bolt and reacquire my target in roughly a second. (The whole work bolt after you see the shot land is BS, by the time you even hear the shot from behind the rifle, its already landed on the target. Bullets velocity is faster than sound)

But I can only work the bolt that fast and shoot that fast with it is because I've spent my whole life shooting. And even then I can only ACCURATELY fire two shots in roughly 3 seconds.