Multi-Person Mechanics to discourage KOS

[boneboys 7988]

Going down hill fast guys, please don't force my hand.

This Topic was not merged, exceptionally !

[emuthreat 2837]

Wasn't this thread supposed to be about the possible inclusion of teamwork as an incentive for people to cooperate?  Stuff like needing two people to move something to gain acces to loot, or not being able to move a disabled vehicle alone would be along those lines.  I'm hoping to see trees cut down into logs, that require two people to carry.  This would allow the buliding of simple forts, or dugout pillboxes; though those might be better-suited to people who are already acquainted and cooperating.  Maybe all those row boats along the shore could eventually be dragged back into the water with a couple people working at it.

[capt. beefsteak 95]

…and he fell right upon the road.

 

A justified killing as defined by your signature? Some kill in online games for the challenge. Plain 'ol PvP. That's one thing.

 

Others, however...

 

 

Basically 3 people died by my hand today, none of which was provoked by me. I see my signature, it doesn't speak of killing on sight, or killing people for pleasure or even killing for some deep seeded feeling I need to express. What it describes is Fighting for a justified cause on a video game, that technically has no real life justification. See my signature for what it is, or see it how you want to see it.

 

I'm not even 100% sure if you were attacking me for saving myself in that situation or not, but I'll tell you what I can see just reading this very in depth post of yours. I can see someone who is very interested and very well versed in the inner workings of mental discrepancies. I see someone who has scared themself due to the amount of abnormal joy killing pixels brought them. Quite frankly this is what worries me. Let me explain why, and no this isn't an attack on you just an observation. We are "programmed" to survive, our minds are built to keep our flesh intact. We are thinkers (though much of that gets repressed by the likes of what we are talking about) on a critical level. Everything humans do day to day is geared towards faster, better and more efficient survival. To make matters worse, what we've done to each other is created a game;  "who is" and "who isn't"... So what's that? That my fellow gamers is competition. We compete for better (fill in the blank) all the time. It's what we do, from the smallest to the largest life impacting stuff, it's all a big game. So we've established the 2 major things we do here. Now in the DayZ game we don't have people acting out dark issues, we have people competing with one another to see who's the best. Trolls, well yea they might be angry or silly or even looking to make someone upset but I highly doubt it goes anywhere beyond that. 16-20k people are on dayz and about half of them kill on sight and about 1 to none of them have this issue that your very post discribes which is why the post is only 99% disturbing.

 

You just can't read into it that much, or shouldn't. Nobody on either side, be it the "killer" or the guy that "died" should be so abnormaly overjoyed about the kill it or clinically depressed about the death. Sound funny to you? Well it shouldn't because your post went there.

 

Teamwork won't curb KOS... Giving meaning to Life/survival will.

Edited June 21, 2015 by Deepfryer

[emuthreat 2837]

Perhaps adding meaning to lifes can promote more teamwork.  I know that it has been discussed before, but adding soft skill trees should make some people at least ask about your skills before killing; especially if there is some task they need skilled help to complete.  I'm for the idea of having each beachside bambi start with a random set of strengths, and one developed vocational skill to be lost upon death, would help to discourage KOS; or it could just make people suicide until they get the desired skill.  Some people may have the playstyle that results in their saying "oh no they killed our blacksmith, those bastards! Now how are we gonna forge broadheads?"   While other people may have the playstyle where they spawn in and say "oh crap, I'm a stupid blacksmith again, better go jump off a roof and see if I can get that marksman spawn I want from every life."

 

It looks like I may have contradicted myself, but it seems that I may have actually found more reasons for the devs to add some mechanic to disincentivize suicides for the desired spawn conditions.  Maybe something similar to the spawncounter would deter suicide-for-spawnpoint behavior.  Like if a there were some way for BE to compare the player's overall in-game time, and average lifespan, and then make a decision that after two or three consecutive Very Short Lives, that the person in question obviously doesn't want to be alive in this apocalypse.  Perhaps these people who exhibit signs of not wanting to live in this cruel world could be spawned a good five-minute swim from land, so they either have to wait a long time to freeze, or invest some time into getting to a suicide location, and instead decide to use their swim as a head-start to actually playing the game, and surviving.

[dashender7 78]

Basically 3 people died by my hand today, none of which was provoked by me. I see my signature, it doesn't speak of killing on sight, or killing people for pleasure or even killing for some deep seeded feeling I need to express. What it describes is Fighting for a justified cause on a video game, that technically has no real life justification. See my signature for what it is, or see it how you want to see it.

 

I'm not even 100% sure if you were attacking me for saving myself in that situation or not, but I'll tell you what I can see just reading this very in depth post of yours. I can see someone who is very interested and very well versed in the inner workings of mental discrepancies. I see someone who has scared themself due to the amount of abnormal joy killing pixels brought them. Quite frankly this is what worries me. Let me explain why, and no this isn't an attack on you just an observation. We are "programmed" to survive, our minds are built to keep our flesh intact. We are thinkers (though much of that gets repressed by the likes of what we are talking about) on a critical level. Everything humans do day to day is geared towards faster, better and more efficient survival. To make matters worse, what we've done to each other is created a game;  "who is" and "who isn't"... So what's that? That my fellow gamers is competition. We compete for better (fill in the blank) all the time. It's what we do, from the smallest to the largest life impacting stuff, it's all a big game. So we've established the 2 major things we do here. Now in the DayZ game we don't have people acting out dark issues, we have people competing with one another to see who's the best. Trolls, well yea they might be angry or silly or even looking to make someone upset but I highly doubt it goes anywhere beyond that. 16-20k people are on dayz and about half of them kill on sight and about 1 to none of them have this issue that your very post discribes which is why the post is only 99% disturbing.

 

You just can't read into it that much, or shouldn't. Nobody on either side, be it the "killer" or the guy that "died" should be so abnormaly overjoyed about the kill it or clinically depressed about the death. Sound funny to you? Well it shouldn't because your post went there.

 

Teamwork won't curb KOS... Giving meaning to Life/survival will.

 

I think you got a bit offended where you didn't need to here buddy.

 

I wanted to make it clear I was separating your approach from what I then went on to discuss which I considered to be just relaying interesting information I'd gathered reading a few journal studies and articles.  

 

I thought I made it clear that pertained specifically to griefers, trolls, and those who enjoy killing in online games for the sense of loss and frustration it affects on the other player, and who thus relish in causing some form of frustration or distress or loss to another, or acting out overtly sadistic acts toward another person's avatar.

 

And you actually couldn't have missed it any worse in your assumptions.  I grew interested in the topic due to the way I've both watched and encountered people playing DayZ - often cruel, overly violent (i.e. torture), power-over and sometimes sadistic.  I became curious as to whether online behavior, and video game behavior in MMO type environments in particular, had been clinically studied.

 

Turns out it has, and somewhat often, for the past 15 years. I'm trying to point out that many will KOS and PvP no matter what, and especially because other players don't want them to, and that they might even be drawn to DayZ for the chance to kill and grief players who aren't "playing the same game." 

 

No, of course this isn't the vast majority of DayZ players, of course you're right about that, and I said as much in my post.

 

And you couldn't have been more wrong in your assumptions / accusations of the inner workings of my personal DayZ conscience my friend :).  

[capt. beefsteak 95]

I think you got a bit offended where you didn't need to here buddy.

 

I wanted to make it clear I was separating your approach from what I then went on to discuss which I considered to be just relaying interesting information I'd gathered reading a few journal studies and articles.  

 

I thought I made it clear that pertained specifically to griefers, trolls, and those who enjoy killing in online games for the sense of loss and frustration it affects on the other player, and who thus relish in causing some form of frustration or distress or loss to another, or acting out overtly sadistic acts toward another person's avatar.

 

And you actually couldn't have missed it any worse in your assumptions.  I grew interested in the topic due to the way I've both watched and encountered people playing DayZ - often cruel, overly violent (i.e. torture), power-over and sometimes sadistic.  I became curious as to whether online behavior, and video game behavior in MMO type environments in particular, had been clinically studied.

 

Turns out it has, and somewhat often, for the past 15 years. I'm trying to point out that many will KOS and PvP no matter what, and especially because other players don't want them to, and that they might even be drawn to DayZ for the chance to kill and grief players who aren't "playing the same game." 

 

No, of course this isn't the vast majority of DayZ players, of course you're right about that, and I said as much in my post.

 

And you couldn't have been more wrong in your assumptions / accusations of the inner workings of my personal DayZ conscience my friend :).  

 

observations aren't accusations... I told you I wasn't going for the juggular...  Either way, it's all good.

[capt. beefsteak 95]

Perhaps adding meaning to lifes can promote more teamwork.  I know that it has been discussed before, but adding soft skill trees should make some people at least ask about your skills before killing; especially if there is some task they need skilled help to complete.  I'm for the idea of having each beachside bambi start with a random set of strengths, and one developed vocational skill to be lost upon death, would help to discourage KOS; or it could just make people suicide until they get the desired skill.  Some people may have the playstyle that results in their saying "oh no they killed our blacksmith, those bastards! Now how are we gonna forge broadheads?"   While other people may have the playstyle where they spawn in and say "oh crap, I'm a stupid blacksmith again, better go jump off a roof and see if I can get that marksman spawn I want from every life."

 

It looks like I may have contradicted myself, but it seems that I may have actually found more reasons for the devs to add some mechanic to disincentivize suicides for the desired spawn conditions.  Maybe something similar to the spawncounter would deter suicide-for-spawnpoint behavior.  Like if a there were some way for BE to compare the player's overall in-game time, and average lifespan, and then make a decision that after two or three consecutive Very Short Lives, that the person in question obviously doesn't want to be alive in this apocalypse.  Perhaps these people who exhibit signs of not wanting to live in this cruel world could be spawned a good five-minute swim from land, so they either have to wait a long time to freeze, or invest some time into getting to a suicide location, and instead decide to use their swim as a head-start to actually playing the game, and surviving.

 

I would think that anyone could be anything and that they had to choose that skill upon spawn in. Now, the only real way I see it curbing KOS is if it took quite a bit of time to aquire the skill. By quite a bit of time I mean hours upon hours. If it's something you can just do right away it would take the whole "meaning of life" out of the game. I don't think that people would seek vengence they would almost surely start working on there skills again.

 

The only catch would be people that don't care to do anything in this game but kill for fun. There is no skill requirement to pick up a gun and shoot someone, nor should there be. Now, with a skill that can be aquired you might be able to craft something that almost makes it worthless for some spawn to try to gun you down. That is the only real way to discourage it. The catch to this of course is that mutiple people would be able to achieve this level and then you just have KOS on the top and it keeps spawns from ever having a chance. There needs to be a fine balance. That balance can't be left to me to decide... Maybe someone who has made it that far also has something to loose by peppering new spawns for fun, but if in defense, maybe it's still retained. I don't know... Some form of humantiy level that effects skill sets. Negitive humantiy people have to work harder/longer to aquire the same level skill as someone with good humanity. And god forbid there are ever vehicles with weps on them, they should also count against this humanity as well for everyone in the truck/vehicle. I know it didn't count in the mod so people could retain there humanity gunning down spawns on the coast which is complete shit.

Edited June 22, 2015 by Deepfryer

[emuthreat 2837]

I'm not too sure if tehy want to go down that Humanity road.  I kinda want to see the soft skill development in the same way that SOD had it. Where if you have a character that you dumped hours of practice into, who has increased stamina through practice running a lot, and quieter movement from sneaking practice, you will value that individual life more, and be less prone to risk it for some scope lolz.  Still, this would do nothing to deter those who give less than, or equal to ZERO F***S; there will always be those players.

[capt. beefsteak 95]

I'm not too sure if tehy want to go down that Humanity road.  I kinda want to see the soft skill development in the same way that SOD had it. Where if you have a character that you dumped hours of practice into, who has increased stamina through practice running a lot, and quieter movement from sneaking practice, you will value that individual life more, and be less prone to risk it for some scope lolz.  Still, this would do nothing to deter those who give less than, or equal to ZERO F***S; there will always be those players.

 

I can see your point. I was basically saying the same. People who play like that will not change much. Hopefully they get bored and actually try to play the game.

[FlimFlamm 509]

The Dayz meaning of life...

 

A bit of a conundrum...

 

The meaning of life, and the value of life can be two separate things.The meaning of life is a very subjective thing; unless god is around to provide objectivity, we each discover what life means to us. The DayZ meaning of life would be no different. In the mod the DayZ meaning of life for me was the joy of flying and the sense of pride that comes from comradery and successful long term survival. For some players it will be about getting the most long range head-shots, or racking up the most kills. Since DayZ is unscripted the meaning of the DayZ lives that we live are up to us to discover. 

 

Value of life however can be additional can(s) of worms. Often times the meaning we assign to our own lives makes life worth living; It makes us value our own life. The reasons why we value the lives of others can be something completely unrelated to why we value our own life. Almost ironically in regards to the dilemma of trying to reduce the occurrence of KOSing, the meaning of DayZ life for some players is the KOS'ing of all other life at all times. Players who value their own lives but not the lives of others tend to be the ones to KOS out of fear, or boredom, or sadism. Getting players to value their own lives isn't necessarily the issue, but rather getting people to value the lives of others. Value for ones own life can lead to conflict avoidance out of self preservation, but it can also lead to aggression, depending on the strategy of the individual who greatly values their own life. Increasing the value to ones own life in this case can be a double edged sword. A notable exception to to the strategy of offence as a viable form of defence (resulting from valuing ones own life) can be destroyed through a greater penchant for mutual destruction. Imagine if the only weapon in the game of DayZ was a knife: players would pretty much be guaranteed to get their pretty faces sliced up real bad regardless of whether or not the emerge victorious. The likely result of that system would be that players engage in group based knife warfare where players form phalanxes of swinging knives in order to dominate individuals and other groups. The game would be terrible (or would it?) but at least KOSing would be almost totally addressed :D. Mutually assured destruction as a source of stability is unlikely to be much of an incentive to reduce KOSing between individuals but once group play becomes common place it is certainly important to try and preserve relations with other groups because war between them will mean overall net losses on both sides.

 

There is a natural spectrum of deviance between the way humans feel about and behave towards one another in the real world, and as a result the motivations which can cause or prevent murder can be numerous and likewise varied. This is I think what makes the issue of KOSing hard to understand and as a result such a heated and controversial topic. There are numerous reason why people KOS: Boredom, Fear, Paranoia, Greed, and Sadism to name a few. Boredom is something that only additional features can really address, and luckily this happens to be a significant cause of current KOSing. Fear and Paranoia and Greed (which stem from the fact that generally people do value their own lives) seem quite difficult causes for KOS to address. When players look through the eyes of their character and see a stranger, what do they see? A potential friend? A potential ally? A likely annoying nincompoop? A walking meat kebab? A walking loot cache? A potential enemy who must be killed at any cost? The next victim in your endless series of senseless murders and short lived characters? Different players with different personalities are naturally diverse and some of them KOS. As I have tried to argue, addressing the "problem" of KOSing as a whole involves dealing with each and very possible cause for it. Now that I feel I've rambled enough about the complexity of the issue, here is my attempt at a useful conclusion:

 

 

Boredom -

 

Boredom currently represents anywhere from 13% to 30% of the cause for all KOSing, but there is an unknown margin of error here as the data relies on a poll and we assume player honesty, also some people KOS for a variety fo reasons or an amalgamation of many so we really cannot be that confident in these numbers. Even still this is a significant source of motivation to KOS; there is not much else to do. Once the game gets more features and 'has more to do' this source of KOSing will evaporate. Boredom forces players to work with what they have, and so players are funnelled into the available play-styles, the only one of which currently exists happens to be armed warfare.

 

Fear/paranoia - 

 

According to the poll, this is the cause of 56% of all KOSing. If headway can be made here then the "problem" of KOsing will be dealt a huge blow. My main theory in this regard is that if players were able to communicate enough and to establish formal bases, a sense of community would emerge and KOSing out of fear and paranoia will be reduced in various ways. Firstly, attacking and killing just anyone might be a risky decision if it turns out that they are a member of a powerful group; you could be signing the destruction warrant of your entire home or sparking a war between your group and theirs. Secondly, rampant KOSers would run into resistance in the form of groups looking to exert control over chernarus. If reports of KOSers come in then the various groups can send out hunting parties to deal with them to make it safe for themselves and as a by product, everyone else. If reputations of any kind are able to emerge then the decision to kill indiscriminately and unprovoked can have lasting ramifications on the way people treat them based on what they have heard or are able to tell about them. I would rather have an organic mechanism for this kind of reputation like actual player communication networks, but for example, in the mod, many players were highly incentivized to not kill indiscriminately because they would take a hit to their reputation points and if they fell to far into the negative would achieve formal bandit status. Sometimes this changed their skin, sometimes it gave you access to a NPC trader that could sell you tanks and attack helicopters. Even still, many people tried to become heroes and it gave players a reason to behave which simply simulated a real world reputation where if you're "bad", then the "good" people to "bad" things to you. Organic mechanisms for player repuation, like possible visual clues about players recent activities or morale based facial expressions could be a replacement for this, but the real address to fear and paranoia based KOSing "problem" can only come with the existence of an actual community on a given server, and an actual network of communication.

 

Think about it for a moment: When everyone is running around chaotically, scrambling for supplies and survival, shit is going to be hectic and chaotic; it's going to be a free for all.  When instead there numerous stable groups who cooperate amongst themselves and potentially with one another, and communicate on a regular basis, then what it means to survive safely is going to change and collaboration with others is going to become much more important in order to stay relevant. We can only hope that groups are able to reach a kind of stability (through defence, cooperation, or mutually assured destruction) and once this happens not everyone is going to be out to kill you, in fact some of them might be looking to recruit you, or you might know some of them, or have relations with their clan. The benefits of cooperation are going to be most clear when groups finally get to build bases and accumulate wealth, and this is going to throw a wrench into the entire way DayZ currently tends to be played.(to me that's good news)

 

Greed

Greed is reported as 13% of the causes for all KOSing, but when you think about it, the same thing that drives you to kill to protect your life is the same thing that drives you to take the lives of others in order to enhance your own; profit. This thread was created on the singular idea that if we could somehow make it profitable for players to cooperate in various situations then the prevalence of KOSing would take a bit of a hit. I think we can do some dynamic events such as this thread is wonderfully jam-packed with, emphasis being on coastal cooperation with the intent of adding civility to fresh spawns (and as a driver of random friendships/alliances <3). The real change will come when cooperation can reliably get you more than robbery, and by "more" I'm talkin bases with beefy security, secure access to land and air transportation, and most importantly a large group of survivors, cooperating for mutual benefit, who are your loyal comrades and will rise to your defence (If only to protect their reputation :D). With natural incentives to cooperate like communal living and natural deterrents to KOSing like a reactive community who can defend against/neutralize aggressive players, there's no telling exactly how much law and order players will be able to bring into Chernarus.

 

Sadism

Killing only for enjoyment is reported as 16%

 

Because this is a video game the normal perception from some players regarding what is and what is not sadism (pure joy of killing in this case) can differ greatly from one another. Many players who are currently KOSing out of sheer boredom will theoretically not do so if they have more interesting pastimes. What might seem sadistic might seem like fun to some other players ( :D), and hence there will always be some players whose main perogative is to kill on sight. I have always understood and accepted this fact and it has come to be an integral part of what I like about DayZ; some players you simply should never have trusted, but trusting nobody at all won't get you anywhere fast.

 

I think perhaps a good analogy to these kinds of players are "griefers" from minecraft. Some people simply get kicks from causing others anguish. A certain percentage of everyone among us is a low down KOSer :D. We've gotta man/woman/other up and deal with it.

 

Long story short, many of the main drivers of KOSing might be significantly impacted or negated by the incoming features that have yet to be implemented, so really Our KOSing woes might all just slowly fade away as more content is added, and game-play emerges.

 

 

Results of source poll, the specificity of the questions could use some improvement but it got the job done.

 

Reports from a very large poll (stickied at the top of the general discussion)

 

Causes for KOSing as polled by another thread:

1. Fear of being killed (641 votes [56.68%])

    

2. Loot (147 votes [13.00%])

    

3. For enjoyment (185 votes [16.36%])

    

4. Nothing else to do/boredom (158 votes [13.97%])

TL;DR: read what is bold and in red

Edited June 22, 2015 by FlimFlamm

[FlimFlamm 509]

I'm not too sure if tehy want to go down that Humanity road.  I kinda want to see the soft skill development in the same way that SOD had it. Where if you have a character that you dumped hours of practice into, who has increased stamina through practice running a lot, and quieter movement from sneaking practice, you will value that individual life more, and be less prone to risk it for some scope lolz.  Still, this would do nothing to deter those who give less than, or equal to ZERO F***S; there will always be those players.

 

My current character has 20k calories packed neatly and tightly into his folds. If he could tell you how he feels about things he would tell you how delicious, diverse and nutritious his diet is, he would literally be a happy camper. He has not seen death other than the zombies and he has handled himself well. 

 

4k calories is all that it takes to get you to light green energized status. Not many people realize it but you can continue to consume food and reach up to 20k calories (5 times as much as it takes to get you to light green from starving).

 

The result is that if need be my character could go without food for five times as long as the sucker next to me who figured since he had energy he didn't need to actually eat anything (that poor skinny bastard). I think about my calories every-time my life is in danger, and if I was to die, my precious calories would be a huge loss. I often brag about my calories...

 

I've been thinking about some kind of morale system for awhile, and having a player in peak physical condition and mental health could potentially be a very interesting mechanic that could be very simulatable. The game currently sort of simulates fat stores with the extra 16k of calories we can hold, but it could be so much more. The devs need to call it feature and have some way of showing players when they reach max calorie status in order to show it off.

Edited June 22, 2015 by FlimFlamm

[vfxtodd 125]

Studies that try to seek a correlation between video game behavior and real life behavior have been done over and over ad nauseum. The fact is, a person already has a predilection towards harming someone or they don't. Video games don't create that behavior. It's inherent or it's not. Canada has a similar percentage of people playing violent video games as we do here in the states. Yet, their crime rate is microscopic compared to ours. People with religious agendas tend to be the ones who try to argue against these conclusions with nothing to back their claims. And the beat goes on.

[FlimFlamm 509]

Studies that try to seek a correlation between video game behavior and real life behavior have been done over and over ad nauseum. The fact is, a person already has a predilection towards harming someone or they don't. Video games don't create that behavior. It's inherent or it's not. Canada has a similar percentage of people playing violent video games as we do here in the states. Yet, their crime rate is microscopic compared to ours. People with religious agendas tend to be the ones who try to argue against these conclusions with nothing to back their claims. And the beat goes on.

 In one of my recent posts (a few posts up) I describe this as "sadism" and conclude that we all must accept it as a natural element of diverse player personalities.

 

The majority of KOSing does not seem to stem from sadism though, and so we can get a lot done by addressing the remaining causes.

[vfxtodd 125]

In one of my recent posts (a few posts up) I describe this as "sadism" and conclude that we all must accept it as a natural element of diverse player personalities.

 

The majority of KOSing does not seem to stem from sadism though, and so we can get a lot done by addressing the remaining causes.

I'm guessing that a lot of the KOS-ing comes from people who play a lot of FPS type games, like Call Of Duty and Battlefield to name a few. And/or people who simply like going around and shooting players dead.

[bonesnap 75]

Apologies I have nothing to contribute at the present moment, but I had to sign in just to lol at this:

 

The presence of 2 people might intimidate a single infected zed

Hahahahaha. If anything it would run faster at the duo just because it sees more dinner.

Edited June 22, 2015 by bonesnap

[Damnyourdeadman 1045]

I was thinking about a mechanic that gives a high percentage chance for bullets to actually get lodged inside the victim's body.

The only way to remove them would be with the help of a second person,if the bullet is left without treatment,the victim would succumb to lead poisoning and eventually die.

 

What do you think?

 

I personally think this would be awesome to have,despite being a little too much on the realism side. :)

[-Gews- 7443]

I was thinking about a mechanic that gives a high percentage chance for bullets to actually get lodged inside the victim's body.

The only way to remove them would be with the help of a second person,if the bullet is left without treatment,the victim would succumb to lead poisoning and eventually die.

 

What do you think?

 

I personally think this would be awesome to have,despite being a little too much on the realism side. :)

 

You're actually NOT supposed to go digging in there just to remove the bullet, so I don't like that idea. I know someone who's been living with a bullet in them for ages and it's fine.

 

And besides - the bullet may very likely not even stay in the body, removing a bullet every time you got shot would be crazy. 

 

"Retained bullets rare cause complications and surgical attempts to find and remove these bullets usually cause more harm than good, if they are even successful."

 

"However, first aid treatment does not include the removal of deeply embedded objects, powdered glass, or any widely scattered material of this nature. You should never attempt to remove bullets"

‎