realistic stamina system in a function

[kOepi (DayZ) 35]

Hey ho,

 

I want to suggest a realistic stamina system.

I have made a calculation table which is based on one formula that allows to define any kind of endurance to any kind of load.

 

Originally it was intended for Arma, so there would be needed to have a new formula for womens bodies.

 

Basically it has four endurance states.

 

1. sprinting for a max of 120 seconds

 

2. running for a max of 10 minutes

 

3. jogging for a max of 35 minutes

 

4. walking for a roughly max of 4 hours ( with weight )

 

whenever you have used your energy in one of the states, then you will be forced into one lower than that.

my calculation table covers all loads from 0 to 60 kgs and of course it is possible to have all the values in between.

 

greetz

 

kOepi

edit:

 

Bilder hochladen

Edited March 19, 2015 by kOepi

[gibonez 3633]

Already confirmed to be coming.

 

Hopefully its as good as the Arma 3 system .

[kOepi (DayZ) 35]

hopefully not as in Arma 3 ...

[gibonez 3633]

hopefully not as in Arma 3 ...

 

Arma 3s is pretty perfect if not a tiny bit too forgiving.

 

Even if we got Arma 3s stamina and fatigue in it would not be anywhere near as punishing as it is in Arma since we arent lugging around heavy plate carriers , 20+ lb rocket laucnhers spare missiles + 400 rounds of ammo.

[roguetrooper 201]

Originally it was intended for Arma, so there would be needed to have a new formula for womens bodies.

 

 

There should be no difference in any values between male and female. Just the 3D model and maybe the running animation.

[kOepi (DayZ) 35]

Arma 3s is pretty perfect if not a tiny bit too forgiving.

 

Even if we got Arma 3s stamina and fatigue in it would not be anywhere near as punishing as it is in Arma since we arent lugging around heavy plate carriers , 20+ lb rocket laucnhers spare missiles + 400 rounds of ammo.

 

I dont know what kind of arma 3 you play or what kind of expectation you have on a "realistic fatique system", but when I play Dayz SA, I can run around with 400 rounds of ammo and a plate carrier.

so it should be punishing, but not as it is in arma 3 right now, because it is not realistic at all.

If you disagree with me on that, do a real life test, run 100 meters, 400 meters and 12 minutes as fast as you can and then do the same with the equal amount of 400 rounds and a heavy plate carrier.

even when this would not be comparable with a trained person it will show a severe relation which is not the current in arma, nor in dayz.

I am tired of arguing with all those goofs ...

how can I upload my calculation table?

what kind of file types are being accepted?

[kOepi (DayZ) 35]

There should be no difference in any values between male and female. Just the 3D model and maybe the running animation.

 

Maybe not, I would let the community vote for it, but since anything else aims for realism, a smaller profile of a womans body should have a disadvantage in some way.

[Evil Minion 943]

The issue with that is balance as most games are by design worlds an average male character would do a little better than an average female one. So indroducing this particular part of realism would actually be a plain nerf to female characters (the disadvantages of being male are hard to implement at best). So you either have to implement an artificial compensation (welcome to balance hell) or leave females underpowered - both of which might come over as being sexist and discriminating against a particular gender (and might hurt authenticity as well).

 

Now human sexual dimorphism isn't actually that significant so you can stay reasonably authentic if you just go with both sexes being of similar height and strength with the only real difference being appearance.

 

As for the stamina system I think having sprinted should greatly reduce the time/distance you can run and so on. So basically every form of movement should have a (global) cost and a specific maximum cost. For a simple example with a stamina pool 1000 you sprinting would cost 3 points per second with a maximum of 360 in 10 minutes. Those could be used for 12 short sprints of 10 seconds or one long one of 120 seconds. Stamina might regenerate slower the lower it drops.

Edited March 18, 2015 by Evil Minion

[gibonez 3633]

I dont know what kind of arma 3 you play or what kind of expectation you have on a "realistic fatique system", but when I play Dayz SA, I can run around with 400 rounds of ammo and a plate carrier.

so it should be punishing, but not as it is in arma 3 right now, because it is not realistic at all.

If you disagree with me on that, do a real life test, run 100 meters, 400 meters and 12 minutes as fast as you can and then do the same with the equal amount of 400 rounds and a heavy plate carrier.

even when this would not be comparable with a trained person it will show a severe relation which is not the current in arma, nor in dayz.

I am tired of arguing with all those goofs ...

how can I upload my calculation table?

what kind of file types are being accepted?

 

 

 

Fatigue is perfectly realistic.

[doctorbadsign 645]

I think that stamina could be something that upgrades the more you run too.

 

I know people are against having "skills" in the game, but often those same people are all for realism. I posit that it is not very realistic to run a lot every day and not increase your fitness and stamina.

[gibonez 3633]

I think that stamina could be something that upgrades the more you run too.

 

I know people are against having "skills" in the game, but often those same people are all for realism. I posit that it is not very realistic to run a lot every day and not increase your fitness and stamina.

 

It is also not realistic to increase your fitness with merely an hour of running in game.

 

If you had your character increase his endurance a tiny bit once a week of in game life then yea thats realistic.

[therandomredstone 431]

In Time.

 

 

 

After more ways of transportation, stamina will be added.

[Zboub le météor 250]

Maybe not, I would let the community vote for it, but since anything else aims for realism, a smaller profile of a womans body should have a disadvantage in some way.

 

that could be interesting. womans benefit from a smaller profile and a lowest caloric consumtion and a better pain resistance, with a restriction on the carry weight and strenght. men would have higher energetic needs, lower pain resistance, higher carry weight and strenght.

 

but as evil minion says, it would be a hell to balance.

[doctorbadsign 645]

It is also not realistic to increase your fitness with merely an hour of running in game.

 

If you had your character increase his endurance a tiny bit once a week of in game life then yea thats realistic.

 

I'd agree if the rate of starvation etc was more realistic.

 

Starvation IRL can be a drawn out process, in the game in can happen in under an hour (from spawning in hungry). If they compress the timescale on that front then I see no reason to compress the time it takes to get fit. 

 

Although as I say I would prefer an all round more realistic timescale, but not necessarily 1-1.

[rybec 339]

or leave females underpowered - both of which might come over as being sexist and discriminating against a particular gender (and might hurt authenticity as well).

Let's not say that male and female bodies are equal in physical strength.

Do you remember a few years ago a woman was throwing a fit because she wanted to be a firefighter and said the requirements were too tough because they were set by men?

 

I sure as hell hope we never have any weapon balances and leave some performing better than others because that's how it works. Saying "Oh, well we can't make females carry less because that'd be sexist" is a horrible step in a different direction than DayZ was originally intended to go. Without cherrypicking people go and pick one random guy off the street and one woman off the street and see who is physically stronger, then repeat it a hundred times. You'll generally get the same results.

I know for sure my wife isn't capable of carrying anything near what I can.

[BeefBacon 1185]

While one could argue that a male character should be stronger than a female character, I don't think it'd be conducive to gameplay. The difference should be purely aesthetic.

 

However, if a difference was to be implemented it should be barely noticeable. Being able to carry slightly less being balanced out by, say, requiring slightly less food would be acceptable. Making female characters straight-up weaker would mean nobody would ever play them... not to mention the flak BI would get.

[gibonez 3633]

While one could argue that a male character should be stronger than a female character, I don't think it'd be conducive to gameplay. The difference should be purely aesthetic.

 

However, if a difference was to be implemented it should be barely noticeable. Being able to carry slightly less being balanced out by, say, requiring slightly less food would be acceptable. Making female characters straight-up weaker would mean nobody would ever play them... not to mention the flak BI would get.

 

Well they do have a smaller hitbox so some people still would.

[Evil Minion 943]

On paper it sounds relatively easy: bigger and more muscular versus a smaller frame and lower energy requirements. But in the end you will probably end up with the former being better suited for the purpose (it is a PC game with a lot of focus on fighting after all). Also those properties do vary greatly between individuals so it's still reasonably authentic if survivors just happen to be equally big and strong (men and women being of same size and strength is just as realistic as two different men being of same size and strength).

Edited March 19, 2015 by Evil Minion

[kOepi (DayZ) 35]

 

Fatigue is perfectly realistic.

 

Interesting video, though it has nothing to do with realism. As he stated himself the fatique system allows him to finish a 13 klick march within 2 hours or so.

But he is relating that from the current speed, possible speed and fatique regaining.

Which in itself is unrealistc + the test should not verify if something is possible, but if something with clear conditions is reachable.

There are no clear conditions in his demonstration, there is no weight, there is no actual test on the endurance over some kind of a distance that would be feasible.

To point out what I propose, since I cannot upload it here, I will show you what is written there regarding the 18 km/h maximum speed when fully loaded.

This would be equal to my calculations with an additional weight of 40 kg ( 115 overall ).

 

within 20 seconds he sprints 100 meters at a speed of 18,3 km/h

within 45 seconds he sprints 200 meters at an average speed of 16 km/h

within 73 seconds he sprints 300 meters at an average speed of 14,7 km/h

 

within 104 seconds he sprints 400 meters at an average speed of 13,9 km/h

 

after 120 seconds he cannot continue in the sprinting and transitions to running speed ( which is at that weight more kind of jogging )

if he would start with running instead with 0 fatique,

within 311 seconds he runs 1000 meters at an average speed of 11,6 km/h

and so on.

 

 

I still have the feeling I am arguing with goofs... who hear something somewhere, misunderstand and recall it in different context :(

or want them to gain superpowers on their charackter so they would have a benefit, because they play it 24 hours a day.

Edited March 19, 2015 by kOepi

[Evil Minion 943]

To point out what I propose, since I cannot upload it here, I will show you what is written there regarding the 18 km/h maximum speed when fully loaded.

I think you know that this is just as useful as the answers you just criticised. Do you have a formula/algorithm you can post?

 

Can you upload it elsewhere and link to it? Also you can add attachments up to 500KB using the "More Reply Options" button. Pack it or split it if it's too big.

[kOepi (DayZ) 35]

I think you know that this is just as useful as the answers you just criticised. Do you have a formula/algorithm you can post?

 

Can you upload it elsewhere and link to it? Also you can add attachments up to 500KB using the "More Reply Options" button. Pack it or split it if it's too big.

 

yes, I uploaded it in a picture, since I cannot upload xls or rar.

Indeed my suggestion post is pretty useless without the calculation table.

[Evil Minion 943]

Okay this seems to be a static system to determine distance, time or mass from a given maximum work. Works well for showing how it should be and it seems the Arma 3 fatigue system has a very similar foundation.

 

However, in a game you do not need a static system but a dynamic one that automatically adjusts to what is happening. Recovery does play a major role here as does the question what a certain fatigue level actually means. For example in the Arma 3 video 100% fatigue meant significant weapon sway and maybe a slight speed decrease (not sure whether or not you still can run or sprint). Now 100% fatigue could also mean exhaustion and collapsing.

[kOepi (DayZ) 35]

Okay this seems to be a static system to determine distance, time or mass from a given maximum work. Works well for showing how it should be and it seems the Arma 3 fatigue system has a very similar foundation.

 

However, in a game you do not need a static system but a dynamic one that automatically adjusts to what is happening. Recovery does play a major role here as does the question what a certain fatigue level actually means. For example in the Arma 3 video 100% fatigue meant significant weapon sway and maybe a slight speed decrease (not sure whether or not you still can run or sprint). Now 100% fatigue could also mean exhaustion and collapsing.

 

I dont see why you say it is static. All the values in each line start from 0 fatique, otherwise it would not be representive and only representing just one case.

If you have combination of those endurace levels you will need to add a new line for the time it is being applied to get the overall fatique ( which is 4 x 2604 points ).

after 2604 points you cannot sprint anymore, after 7812 points you cannot run anymore and after 10416 points you are fully exhausted and cannot even walk anymore.

I did not go into the recovery/regaining fatique at all as it is a factor which need to be balanced and therefore tested and I dont have anything against the effects that are currently active

to simulate fatique ( weapon sway etc. ).

 

btw. the formula is not about work, otherwise there would not be any time involved.

Edited March 20, 2015 by kOepi

[Evil Minion 943]

I dont see why you say it is static.

Static means given you know everything that happened up to a point you can calculate the fatigue. Dynamic would mean you have to know the former state and then you can calculate fatigue according to what you just did without knowing the history behind it.

 

Now it's quite possible to transform them the way you just wrote. I admit I understood it as 2604 points that could be used either way but I like it more with those 4 stages. So basically something like:

• 10416 stamina point maximum
• 7812+ you can use them for everything (drain per second depending on speed according to table)
• <7812 you cannot sprint (red not allowed)
• <5208 you cannot run (blue not allowed)
• <2604 you can only walk ("orange" not allowed)
• at 0 you collapse

Now the issue I can see here is that this would completely block sprinting as soon as you reach 25% fatigue while you could still run for ~2000 meters and then jog for another ~5000 meters.

 

So my idea would be to turn it around:

• you got 10416 stamina points
• 2604 can only be used for walking
• 2604 can be used for jogging and also walking in case the former 2604 points are depleted
• 2604 can be used for running and the former if their respective pools (2604 for jogging, 5208 total for walking) are depleted
• the last 2604 can be used for everything but are reserved for sprinting as long as there are other points available

Still not perfect but it allows for a more flexible use as you would only be stopped from sprinting at 25% fatigue if you used your full sprinting pool before (and in consequence all other pools are still full). Here regeneration comes in. Depending on how you plan to do this the dynamics will change:

• Starting with the most specialized (walking) pool would basically result in a similar system to the first: Sprinting stays disabled until you reach 7812 points.
• Starting with the most general (sprinting) would basically convert stamina to "better types" so you can regenerate your sprinting pool by not sprinting and staying above 2604 stamina.
• You could also regenerate in all pools equally to get a hybrid and maybe...
• ...stop regenerating some pools as you drop below a certain total (e.g. sprinting pool only regenerates at 7812 or above).

Finally you should keep in mind that regeneration works against fatigue so you have to adjust your values accordingly (which gets more complicated the more complex your regeneration system is).

Edited March 20, 2015 by Evil Minion

[kOepi (DayZ) 35]

the only two things that need to be added is a function which combines different states and breaks and regaining factors for that break time.

 

Load1State1 ( for 100 seconds ) minus regainMov0load1 ( for 500 seconds ) = fatique 0                  { 100 seconds running at certain weight minus 500 seconds break while holding }

 

Load1State1 ( for 100 seconds ) minus regainMov1load1 ( for 500 seconds ) = fatique ~ 0               { 100 seconds running at certain weight minus 500 seconds regaining stamina while walking at 5km/h }

as you should easier be able to regain 100% when you dont have that much of weight on you.
and as you should less able to regain, when you have a lot of weight on you.
I cannot even imagine myself sprinting with 60 kg on my back. I know that I can stand with it, but maybe only walk 100 meters with it.

so there needs to be a regaining factor depending on break time and weight being carried.

The thing you did not understand yet ( I have to admit it is contradicting in my sheet ) is that there is only one "running" speed, which needs the whole 5208 stamina points, as it is the strongest
state that lasts for the longest and covers speeds from 20 km/h down to 5 km/h.