Any plans for 3PP immersion?

[raigprime 47]

3PP and immersion are mutually exclusive concepts, unless you are talking about creating a camera angle from just inside the player's skull.  Similar question:  Any plans for a lobotomy that adds grey matter?  Not trying to be rude, or call anyone dumb. I'm just stating that by definition, 3rd person perspective is not immersive; it is right there in the name--third person.  Meaning that you as the player, are playing from the perspective of an observer, with the avatar being the "first person."  Immersion is not an option, as long as 3PP is a option.  I prefer first person, especially indoors, but have started using 3PP while traveling with others.  Mostly because they call me stupid or crazy for using 1PP.  I'll bet that the developers don't even have to tweak the 3PP FOV settings, or add a whole new system for calculating the fog of war.  They could just limit 3PP servers to civilian loot only, and watch all the players move to the servers that spawn the "leet gears, bro."  Have fun peeking around walls and over rooftops, and good luck sniping from the fire stations with a repeater.

I don't disagree with you. The Devs have said that they will not get rid of 3PP. The point of this was to see if they were still considering modifying 3PP so that it was less "exploitative." So I accept that my choice of words i.e. "immersion" for the title is poor, BUT less provocative than say words like "exploit" or "lobotomy;" you know, unnecessarily inflammatory when you want to open a real dialogue.

[emuthreat 2837]

I don't disagree with you. The Devs have said that they will not get rid of 3PP. The point of this was to see if they were still considering modifying 3PP so that it was less "exploitative." So I accept that my choice of words i.e. "immersion" for the title is poor, BUT less provocative than say words like "exploit" or "lobotomy;" you know, unnecessarily inflammatory when you want to open a real dialogue.

I really wasn't trying to be inflammatory.  It was the use of "immersion" that I didn't quite take well, and I was mostly just posting about how the two are incompatible.  Any of the 3PP tweaks that you mentioned might help to balance PVP advantages for stationary over approaching players.  In defense of the lobotomy analogy: a phlebotomy that adds blood was my first thought, but it sounded like that may actually exist in some way.  So yeah, sorry for harping about the immersion thing.  Didn't mention exploits, but I probably should have searched for a better simile.  I was mostly commenting on how the people looking for immersion are not going to be playing in 3PP, unless they have to because of server populations;  but the people who like 3PP because they can crouch and spin around in a bush and see everything going on around them, will likely cry foul over any tweaks that limit their ability to circumvent LOS restrictions.  No hard feeling about the misunderstanding, I truly did not mean to offend or agitate.  It is just very clear now, that this is a sensitive subject all-around.

Edited February 14, 2015 by emuthreat

[dallas 5195]

The solution isn't to break third person, the solution is to fix first person.

 

As long as the first person experience is unpleasant and clunky, many of us will chose the more pleasant third person experience. It's easier to accept the exploits of third person, than the uncomfortable and unimmersive first person.

[raigprime 47]

I really wasn't trying to be inflammatory.  It was the use of "immersion" that I didn't quite take well, and I was mostly just posting about how the two are incompatible.  Any of the 3PP tweaks that you mentioned might help to balance PVP advantages for stationary over approaching players.  In defense of the lobotomy analogy: a phlebotomy that adds blood was my first thought, but it sounded like that may actually exist in some way.  So yeah, sorry for harping about the immersion thing.  Didn't mention exploits, but I probably should have searched for a better simile.  I was mostly commenting on how the people looking for immersion are not going to be playing in 3PP, unless they have to because of server populations;  but the people who like 3PP because they can crouch and spin around in a bush and see everything going on around them, will likely cry foul over any tweaks that limit their ability to circumvent LOS restrictions.  No hard feeling about the misunderstanding, I truly did not mean to offend or agitate.  It is just very clear now, that this is a sensitive subject all-around.

No worries. And again, I don't disagree with you. But as a player of the mod that had hopes of SA releasing as a 1PP apocalypse survival game and advocating hard for it for so long to no avail; I've simply given up.

 

I'll play 3PP, but I was hoping the Devs were still, at least internally, discussing making 3PP less exploitative and I used the more neutral term "immersion" in the hopes that it wouldn't deteriorate into a 1st v 3rd discussion (that was naive).

[trupciks 23]

What if they would add item "mirror" witch would enable 3pp since u can use it to see aroun corners and edges...

[freethink 984]

I'll tell you what the real problem is: First person players who play on third person servers. The reason 1st person servers are generally barren is because these 1st person zealots don't support the play style they supposedly prefer.

 

I've hundreds of hours in 1p and hundreds of hours in 3rd. They are different games. If you are incapable of seeing that then that's nobody's fault but your own. Dayz is about the only game I like as 3rd as well as 1st. I generally hate 3rd person games.

 

Seems to me that a lot of first person players spend more time moaning on forums about 3rd person than trying to help out 1st person servers by actually joining and playing on them.

 

If you think you have to play 3rd because everyone else is then you are part of the problem. Play the game you want.

Edited February 15, 2015 by freethink

[gibonez 3633]

No the real problem is with 3pp mode even existing it was a legacy feature from Arma 1 that was meantto better facilitate the control of a squad.

 

It has absolutely no role in a zombie survival game especially because of the insanely negative ramifications that it has on gameplay.

 

Fixing if not outright removing third person mode should be their #1 priority when it reaches the time that they can focus on it.

 

Camera reposition, Fog of war system / not rendering what you can't see, or any other fancy means would work but to leave the third person mode the way it exists now would be atrocious for gameplay and it suffers greatly already.

 

 

Best case scenario is a solution is built directly into the engine for not only Dayz but for Arma 3 where third persons current implementation also devastates pvp and tvt game modes.

[emuthreat 2837]

No worries. And again, I don't disagree with you. But as a player of the mod that had hopes of SA releasing as a 1PP apocalypse survival game and advocating hard for it for so long to no avail; I've simply given up.

 

I'll play 3PP, but I was hoping the Devs were still, at least internally, discussing making 3PP less exploitative and I used the more neutral term "immersion" in the hopes that it wouldn't deteriorate into a 1st v 3rd discussion (that was naive).

Umm, yeah.  I didn't even discover 3PP until I went on youtube, my first three trips inland were done the 'hardcore' way.  I'll try to be less of a specific language nazi in the future.

 

Back to the discussion you intended, I don't think any changes can go through without pissing off a lot of people.  Even if they made it so 3PP was only usable while sprinting, introduced contextual zoom behavior, if it locked out the use of other functions, or it had a slow transition between changing views; the people who like to use it for tactical advantage, or just enjoy lookin at their avatar's back, would definitely have a problem.  I think the safest solution would be to incentivise 1PP play, rather than take away something that people have become accustomed to doing.  That way they can still have the experience they have had so far, but people looking for more immersion can have a different type of experience--with more than six people at a time.

 

It is always better to give people something extra, than to take away what they already have.  Once true top-tier weapons are introduced, people might feel better about playing on 1PP servers, if it were the only place to find an SVD or other highly desireable piece of gear.  People will still be upset, but I guess if they need 3PP so much, they "can go play on their own servers."  I think that the real issue here is that the alpha was so limited at release that the emergent playstyles favored 3PP, where one cold run concealed along a wall and try to locate targets from relative safety.  If you reeaaallllyyy want that AS-50 or  underbarrel grendae launcher, then you must also respect line of sight.  I don't care if all someone wants do is stand inside a fortification and lob death at everyone outside,  can't have it both ways.

If I really want a beer with my hamburger, I don't go to McDonalds drive-thru; I have to go to a sit-down establisment that serves beer.  The same principle could be applied here to separate the quick-service, disposable PVP character player base, from the people who value realism and immersion as a core part of their gaming experience.

 

 Even this fix will anger some people. But those will most likley be the people who want to have an already overpowered rifle--capable of firing right through walls-- as well as the ability to see over the wall to time their shot on the unsuspecting target.  There will always be the people who get their only enjoyment out of the game from simply 'pwning noobs' in an unfair or unsporting manner.  This is why Treyarch added the grief mode to BLOPS 2.  Notice how there is no ray-gun on town in grief mode, but there is on survival?  People learned to live with it.  So too, can DayZ players learn to live with having more limited equipment options on servers that allow unrealistic play styles.

[emuthreat 2837]

 

If you think you have to play 3rd because everyone else is then you are part of the problem. Play the game you want.

But play it alone if you don't want people peeking over walls.

[-Gews- 7443]

But play it alone if you don't want people peeking over walls.

There are still a good number of 1PP servers and some highly populated. For now... but fear is these servers lose pop or shut down. Look at the mod now, zip, you have only US 436 with players you can count on one hand, on a good day.

 

I'll play 3PP, but I was hoping the Devs were still, at least internally, discussing making 3PP less exploitative and I used the more neutral term "immersion" in the hopes that it wouldn't deteriorate into a 1st v 3rd discussion (that was naive).

Doubt it, it's not seen as a problem and they are not going to annoy 95% of the player base for the sake of realism.

As long as the first person experience is unpleasant and clunky, many of us will chose the more pleasant third person experience. It's easier to accept the exploits of third person, than the uncomfortable and unimmersive first person.

Yeah... I don't think so. ARMA 3 gave 9 stances and greatly improved controls. Vast majority of A3 servers are still 3PP. People just get used to this and then it feels restrictive going to 1PP no matter what, because it is restricting them, their camera just got moved 6 feet down into their character's head. If they've been playing for months or years in 3PP, of course it's going to feel "uncomfortable" and "unpleasant"... until they get used to it. Then 3PP is the one that seems ridiculous. But I suspect a lot of people try it for a short period, go "nope" and head back to 3PP without further ado. Too bad!

[dallas 5195]

their camera just got moved 6 feet down into their character's head.

Correction 7 feet, because you spent half the time in first person, looking through your own neck.

 

I actually played a whole lot of Armed Assault and ArmA 2 in first person, I endured it and even liked it, but it was always clear that ArmA was designed as a hybrid game and not as a pure first or third person game.

[buddy_cassino 69]

Beans OP, some great ideas regarding "regular" gameplay.

 

Seeing Peter Nespesny arguing about manual transmission and other devs talking about 3pp changes (sorry, no reference), I´d think current implementation of 3pp will be reviewed and hopefully changed at some point.

 

 

Posted 09 December 2014 - 07:17 PM

 

We are promoting player skills, if you want to drive that vehicle you need to know how to operate it. Doesn't matter at all if it takes some time to get used to it. Also we are against any optional game mechanics - it needs to be the same for everyone.

 

Read on Reddit

Quote reference

[gibonez 3633]

Beans OP, some great ideas regarding "regular" gameplay.

 

Seeing Peter Nespesny arguing about manual transmission and other devs talking about 3pp changes (sorry, no reference), I´d think current implementation of 3pp will be reviewed and hopefully changed at some point.

 

Quote reference

 

 

Hopefully it is looked at by not only the Dayz team but on behalf of all the studios at Bohemia Interactive.

 

So that whatever solution/compromise/fix they find can be incorporated straight into the engine and we never have to suffer from such game breaking things such as wall peeking and how detrimental to pvp it is.

[IgnobleBasterd 161]

I'll tell you what the real problem is: First person players who play on third person servers. The reason 1st person servers are generally barren is because these 1st person zealots don't support the play style they supposedly prefer.

 

I've hundreds of hours in 1p and hundreds of hours in 3rd. They are different games. If you are incapable of seeing that then that's nobody's fault but your own. Dayz is about the only game I like as 3rd as well as 1st. I generally hate 3rd person games.

 

Seems to me that a lot of first person players spend more time moaning on forums about 3rd person than trying to help out 1st person servers by actually joining and playing on them.

 

If you think you have to play 3rd because everyone else is then you are part of the problem. Play the game you want.

 

To me the difference is:

 

1pp: I play more for real

 

3pp: I hide behind walls, wait for a bambi to come running and pop him. Because it is amusing and I just can't bring myself to play seriously when I can see behind walls, and I know people can do the same if I run around. It is a bit like hacking.

Edited February 15, 2015 by IgnobleBasterd

[IgnobleBasterd 161]

The solution isn't to break third person, the solution is to fix first person.

 

As long as the first person experience is unpleasant and clunky, many of us will chose the more pleasant third person experience. It's easier to accept the exploits of third person, than the uncomfortable and unimmersive first person.

It's not. I only played 1pp from the beginning, for a long time. I discovered 3pp much later. That's when I realised that I could join 3pp servers, hide behind walls and then pop bambis for fun! I never though 1pp was clunky or weird.

Edited February 15, 2015 by IgnobleBasterd

[raigprime 47]

Beans OP, some great ideas regarding "regular" gameplay.

 

Seeing Peter Nespesny arguing about manual transmission and other devs talking about 3pp changes (sorry, no reference), I´d think current implementation of 3pp will be reviewed and hopefully changed at some point.

 

Quote reference

 

Thanks. This is the closest I've seen to an answer to my question.

 

Even this gives me a little hope that it's still on their radar as something to think about.

[Jex 1104]

"Only loosers hate the 3rd person view in DayZ" - Albert Einstein

 

BUWAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!! :)

 

Or as the OP suggested add some concepts for those who prefer to play in 3rd person.  When another player comes close enough..... all views go FP.  Just making the camera tighter or restricting the 3rdP view doesn't diminish the advantage.

 

That would be horrible and is just a player radar then. Someone suggested being able to do nothing in 3pp except look at your av and delay the switch between the 2 views.

 

3PP and immersion are mutually exclusive concepts, unless you are talking about creating a camera angle from just inside the player's skull.  Similar question:  Any plans for a lobotomy that adds grey matter?  Not trying to be rude, or call anyone dumb. I'm just stating that by definition, 3rd person perspective is not immersive; it is right there in the name--third person.  Meaning that you as the player, are playing from the perspective of an observer, with the avatar being the "first person."  Immersion is not an option, as long as 3PP is a option.  I prefer first person, especially indoors, but have started using 3PP while traveling with others.  Mostly because they call me stupid or crazy for using 1PP.  I'll bet that the developers don't even have to tweak the 3PP FOV settings, or add a whole new system for calculating the fog of war.  They could just limit 3PP servers to civilian loot only, and watch all the players move to the servers that spawn the "leet gears, bro."  Have fun peeking around walls and over rooftops, and good luck sniping from the fire stations with a repeater.

 

 

Quite a weird concept right? People want to be IN  a zombie apocalypse and yet want a disembodied view - except they don't really because in game like Dying Light, they're quite happy to be in 1pp so I don't understand where their point is.

[Jex 1104]

Umm, yeah.  I didn't even discover 3PP until I went on youtube, my first three trips inland were done the 'hardcore' way.  I'll try to be less of a specific language nazi in the future.

 

 

I suspect most people that played the mod played in 1pp and never had an issue with it and didn't even know 3pp existed. Nobody seemed to have an issue when they thought only 1pp existed.

 

Yeah... I don't think so. ARMA 3 gave 9 stances and greatly improved controls. Vast majority of A3 servers are still 3PP. People just get used to this and then it feels restrictive going to 1PP no matter what, because it is restricting them, their camera just got moved 6 feet down into their character's head. If they've been playing for months or years in 3PP, of course it's going to feel "uncomfortable" and "unpleasant"... until they get used to it. Then 3PP is the one that seems ridiculous. But I suspect a lot of people try it for a short period, go "nope" and head back to 3PP without further ado. Too bad!

 

DayZ devs really need to add in the Arma 3 move system. How could they not want to put it in a game that screams for it! I suspect they don't really play the game.

[gibonez 3633]

Here is something from another dev when dealing with third person view.

 

 

It is now gone, they realized how insanely detrimental to gameplay third person is.

 

 

This just shows you how important it is that the Dayz and Arma 3 devs at the very least look into mechanics to mitigate the wall peeking.

[-Gews- 7443]

Here is something from another dev when dealing with third person view.

 

Wow, nice. I can imagine the rage if that happened to DayZ.  <_< 

 

Meanwhile I've been playing back at BMRF servers which are 3rd person and I'll put up with it for now. BMRF were really good in the mod and as soon as they have a 1pp server I'll be switching. They're getting about 50 players each night too http://www.bmrf.me if you want to check them out. Private hive but so easy to get on the whitelist :)

Jussayin' advertising a 3PP server in this particular thread is kind of... amusing... :lol: they do have their own thread here: http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/220181-bmrf-dayz-private-shard-automated-whitelist-active-admins-billy-mays-remembrance-foundation/

[gibonez 3633]

Wow, nice. I can imagine the rage if that happened to DayZ.  <_< 

 

Jussayin' advertising a 3PP server in this particular thread is kind of... amusing... :lol: they do have their own thread here: http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/220181-bmrf-dayz-private-shard-automated-whitelist-active-admins-billy-mays-remembrance-foundation/

 

 

Yea the rage would be vocal at first but like all things it would diminish.

 

However I still believe that the best approach would be a minor camera reposition to mitigate the problem itself without having to completely remove the viewpoint.

 

Even something as simple as removing third person view when crouching or when prone would fix alot of the pvp problems.

 

 

What I find utterly hilarious though is how the vast vast majority of the Rust population loves that 3rd person was removed, this is funny because Rust is not a game touting itself to be realistic. Quite the opposite. Yet the community has a clear understanding of how third person view is detrimental to gameplay.

Edited February 17, 2015 by gibonez

[Jex 1104]

Here is something from another dev when dealing with third person view.

 

 

It is now gone, they realized how insanely detrimental to gameplay third person is.

 

 

This just shows you how important it is that the Dayz and Arma 3 devs at the very least look into mechanics to mitigate the wall peeking.

 

Oh you mean they took it away and now everyone is still playing it???? :o :o :o

[Jex 1104]

Wow, nice. I can imagine the rage if that happened to DayZ.  <_< 

 

Jussayin' advertising a 3PP server in this particular thread is kind of... amusing... :lol: they do have their own thread here: http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/220181-bmrf-dayz-private-shard-automated-whitelist-active-admins-billy-mays-remembrance-foundation/

 

Hey they're a good server so I don't mind shamelessly plugging them (and I want a 1st pp server so we need more players lol)

[hekp 223]

I like the idea of the new igname menu where players wont be allowed to change fov settings once ingame.

I think thats a lil victory for everyone being bothered by it.

[Buck10489 29]

hopefully not. Cant stand 1st person in this game. They arent going to change something to cater to the few of you. I dont understand why these threads are constantly being made over and over again.