The Winchester Model 70 discussion thread

[igor-vk 909]

Well since were looping back around into lore topics wasn't the USA involved quite a bit into this? Like wouldn't there be excessive gun trade with allies to help them take back certain areas?

Yes, that is why you can find 5.56 ammo, tac shirts, tac vests, jungle boots and helmets in military camps. But good stuff was taken when military fled from infection. 

[Chaingunfighter 917]

Just give me options besides gimmicky chopper crashes to find things in and ill complain much much less.

 

Also considering units might be scattered if they survived before something else got to them its possible to find mixed  weapons in various areas. Not just the standard native weapons.

The whole point of helicopter crash sites is to give an unpredictable (somewhat, even though they still only spawn in specific areas) and randomized way of spawning in high-tier loot rather than just allowing them at the pre-set locations. It's what makes the crash sites valuable - they're worthless if you can just find everything at static loot spawns, because for that you can still server hop even if the loot spawn is significantly reduced.

 

Plus, it's not like you're being deprived of anything because you have to go to a crashsite to get an AUG or M4A1. You can still get four other ARs; AKM, AK74, AKS-74U, and AK-101, without even going to a crashsite. You might prefer the aesthetic of an AR-15 but is that really a good enough reason to remove the whole point of crash sites?

[Evil Minion 943]

Just give me options besides gimmicky chopper crashes to find things in and ill complain much much less.

You can find less gimmicky things at less gimmicky locations but gimmicky things will require you to search for gimmicky locations. Makes sense from both a gameplay perspective (more work for more reward) and realism (find things where you would actually find them).

 

With working persistence and harder survival/PvE your wish might come true as players loot military equipment in military bases but die elsewhere. The only additional feature needed here is dying/knocked out players dropping their weapons instead of keeping them in their hands - something I would strongly recommend.

[TGPstolas 20]

Those western weapons only being in helicopters is what makes them plausible.

 

Why would you find an m4 or an aug in a Native military base ? it makes sense that you would only find them in western helicopters .

It would make more sense to find in AUG in chernarus rather than the US. According to Dean Hall chernarus is supposed to be around slovakia/czech republic/ukraine. Kind of a large area, but you'd think it'd be found more easily in a country relatively close to Austria, rather than at US crash sites. I know these countries dont use the AUG, but you'd think if chernarus was falling, other countries would help each other, and it wouldnt be totally outlandish to think US forces didnt all come in by heli and get shot down.. then again, this game is a post apocalyptic zombie survival game. 

i think the AUG should be found in barracks, but with a small chance to spawn, and without the lame freaking scope mounted already. i heard the AUG in dayz is the AUG A2, which would mean you can change the scopes/optics.

[jacksparrows 31]

ugh, I've read a few times in this thread that the Mosin is inaccurate? Says who? 

 

I own two of them, my brother owns one, and between our group of shooting friends there must be another five or six of them and none of them are inaccurate. 

 

The bottom line is they should be a formidable weapon in game. They do not need nerfed. They are powerful and in my experience they are 9 times out of 10 more accurate than the person shooting them is. I can hit accurately with both of mine out to the limits of my ability to shoot it. When someone more experienced and better than myself has fired it at longer range, it still remained accurate.

Before trashing the Mosin, pick a real one up and get some trigger time behind it before speaking about its capabilities. 

[hannibaldaplaya 1095]

Protip: I've used a Blaze 95, an M4, and an AKM. Want to know what I think is the "better" weapon? The Blaze, as it is more versatile and can be used for more than PvP; hunting, self-defense, PvP, etc. AKM's and M4's have too much dispersion and they are too...specialized (ironic, considering assault rifles are the "jack of all trades" firearm of the world) to be really used for anything but PvP.

 

That's the problem, artificial balancing. Assault Rifles are used for a reason. They're the most modern, effective, and versatile weapons available in real life currently. They can be effective both at range and in CQC. Whats not to love?

 

However, in DayZ they are made into weapons that are only effective at CQC. You barely have any range. Why? Spread, dispersion, all of that. Put in to balance something in a survival game. Why would you balance in a survival game?

 

In real life, I'd much prefer an AR-15 with an optical scope over a shitty little Mosin for ranged engagements. Though the caliber is a bit less beefy, the Mosin is a 100 or so year old firearm that wouldn't hold up that much. Plus, the AR-15 is semi-automatic and has a larger magazine. In all ways, it is a better firearm, except for its caliber.

 

Plus, there are Assault Rifles that fire the same round a Mosin does. The HK417, that allows you to do some long range shooting with a 7.62x51 without having to pull back bolts or worry about low magazine capacities. Want to go a bit down in the tech-line? The FN FAL is one of my favorite rifles and is, essentially, both a battle rifle and a marksman rifle. Its accurate over range but can still be used in medium range engagements and occasionally CQC.

 

In real life, there is no reason to use anything other then an assault rifle if you have the ammunition and the magazines. You can say they 'eat up ammo', but that isn't true. You can always flick on semi-automatic fire. They're not as insanely accurate as games and DayZ make you believe. They weren't made to spray and pray, they were made to hold up in every sort of engagement possible.

 

DayZ should make the assault rifles the ideal weapon for, well, anything. Screw artificial balancing - Simply make them rare. 

[Briljin 102]

If people are going to start putting up pallisades, I want to be able to make a ballista!

 

Screw that, I want a molotov cocktail or the ability to make IEDs using all the propane tanks around the game.

[jacksparrows 31]

-snip-

 

Plus, there are Assault Rifles that fire the same round a Mosin does. The HK417, that allows you to do some long range shooting with a 7.62x51 without having to pull back bolts or worry about low magazine capacities. Want to go a bit down in the tech-line? The FN FAL is one of my favorite rifles and is, essentially, both a battle rifle and a marksman rifle. Its accurate over range but can still be used in medium range engagements and occasionally CQC.

 

-snip-

 

The HK417 fires the 7.62x51 cartridge. The FN FAL is also chambered in 7.62x51. The Mosin fires a 7.62x54R cartridge. 

 

The devs goofed and didn't put the correct caliber in the game. In DayZ the Mosin fires 7.62x51 which is not correct. 

 

Here is a list of weapons that fire the same 7.62x54R cartridge as the Mosin.

[agouti 105]

I think its hilarious that to so many people "survival" means going in the woods to play bear grylls, forsaking most modern technology, and becoming some sort of luddite. This is insane and counterproductive to me. Survival to me, means simply not dying.

 

More fun thoughts: accuracy is relevant. The mosin is accurate enough but is by no means a sub-moa rifle. I own one. It only shoots right with the bayonet on. Quite silly.

 

More fun thoughts about the mosin: the action is tolerable, with new modern made barrels, trigger groups, and detachable magazines, you can make a modern quite accurate rifle from one.

 

 

Also: the finnish mosin is NOT the russian mosin! It is superior.

 

I feel the barracks should have more rifles, most hits with a mosin should be lethal, hell most hits with any rifle cartridge should be lethal, even the m4, and the m4 and AK should be effective even at 300 meters.

[gibonez 3633]

ugh, I've read a few times in this thread that the Mosin is inaccurate? Says who? 

 

I own two of them, my brother owns one, and between our group of shooting friends there must be another five or six of them and none of them are inaccurate. 

 

 

 

Inaccurate relative to just about any modern production rifle.

 

Do some bench testing and shoot a 5 inch group, compare it to a 5 inch group with just about any modern rifle and then you will see what people mean by it being inaccurate.

 

Every mosin is different the one I have shot was piss poor imo 5 inch groups at best using surplus ammo out of a spam can.

[5mirkeh 98]

Christ, Look at what happened to my goddamn thread . . . . 

[Deathlove 2280]

Christ, Look at what happened to my goddamn thread . . . . 

*Gives yew a taco* 83

[Insane Ruffles 74]

Inaccurate relative to just about any modern production rifle.

 

Do some bench testing and shoot a 5 inch group, compare it to a 5 inch group with just about any modern rifle and then you will see what people mean by it being inaccurate.

 

Every mosin is different the one I have shot was piss poor imo 5 inch groups at best using surplus ammo out of a spam can.

If you've only fired one Mosin and you were using surplus ammo, then that would explain it. Any Mosin can be made accurate with a few tweaks. For 90% of them that means adjusting the sight and/or tightening the spring of the barrel bands. Mosins have been put up as one of the best survival guns for their reliability and commonality. Please don't down put my baby.

[gibonez 3633]

If you've only fired one Mosin and you were using surplus ammo, then that would explain it. Any Mosin can be made accurate with a few tweaks. For 90% of them that means adjusting the sight and/or tightening the spring of the barrel bands. Mosins have been put up as one of the best survival guns for their reliability and commonality. Please don't down put my baby.

 

I am not.

 

I am merely challenging the notion that a random surplus mosin nagant shooting dirty surplus ammo is going to punch 1 inch holes and snipe people at 1000 m on the first shot.

 

Mosins are fine, fun to shoot, reliable guns that are a downright bargain but super precise long range rifles comparable to modern bolt action rifles they are not.

 

Currently mosins are way way too accurate

[igor-vk 909]

Im happy to see .308 ammo in game, finally!! That opens way for other weapons in that caliber like FN FAL (my favorite), M24, M14, maybe even G3.

[Chaingunfighter 917]

I am not.

 

I am merely challenging the notion that a random surplus mosin nagant shooting dirty surplus ammo is going to punch 1 inch holes and snipe people at 1000 m on the first shot.

 

Mosins are fine, fun to shoot, reliable guns that are a downright bargain but super precise long range rifles comparable to modern bolt action rifles they are not.

 

Currently mosins are way way too accurate

Yeah, people need to realize that we're not talking about mostly imported good-condition and well-kept Mosins. We're talking about rifles that have probably been in Chernarus for 50+ years, having gone through World War II and multiple civil wars, and then left sitting around in barns/houses with only occasional usage for the rest of their lifetimes.

 

Most of the ammunition you can find is also pretty bad (though it would be cool if they took the Metro route where you could find modern high-end production 7.62x54mmR rounds in military bases and older, surplus rounds in civilian locations.)

The accuracy of a Mosin just shouldn't be as high as it is for how common they are considering the environment. Not that it needs to be firing 30 yard groups at two inches, but it should be adjusted a bit once we get more capable long-ranged weapons that take over the Mosin's spot.

[Deathlove 2280]

Yeah, people need to realize that we're not talking about mostly imported good-condition and well-kept Mosins. We're talking about rifles that have probably been in Chernarus for 50+ years, having gone through World War II and multiple civil wars, and then left sitting around in barns/houses with only occasional usage for the rest of their lifetimes.

 

Most of the ammunition you can find is also pretty bad (though it would be cool if they took the Metro route where you could find modern high-end production 7.62x54mmR rounds in military bases and older, surplus rounds in civilian locations.)

The accuracy of a Mosin just shouldn't be as high as it is for how common they are considering the environment. Not that it needs to be firing 30 yard groups at two inches, but it should be adjusted a bit once we get more capable long-ranged weapons that take over the Mosin's spot.

Does ammo even have a difference of power yet when its condition is deteriorated in game yet?

 

Because if its not it needs to be. Would add a much more interesting spice to the game if you ask me if every single piece of ammo you came across was not pristine. That would also probably impact how a guns power and function works as well. I imagine that coupled with the condition of the gun in general when condition actually matter will play a bigger part.

Edited December 11, 2014 by Deathlove

[Chaingunfighter 917]

Does ammo even have a difference of power yet when its condition is deteriorated in game yet?

 

Because if its not it needs to be. Would add a much more interesting spice to the game if you ask me if every single piece of ammo you came across was not pristine. That would also probably impact how a guns power and function works as well. I imagine that coupled with the condition of the gun in general when condition actually matter will play a bigger part.

Right now the only adverse effect you'll have is that ruined ammunition simply will not fire.

 

Honestly the effects of bullet condition should be ramped up quite a bit;

- Pristine ammunition should work basically 100% of the time as intended with no adverse effects.

- Worn ammunition should still function pretty well, although it should wear out the gun faster and sometimes be less accurate/powerful or have lower velocity, and a have a small chance to misfire (effects should be unpredictable, meaning that not every shot is reduced in power or inaccurate, but some also suffer from combinations of said effects.)

- Damaged ammunition should be problematic to use; Wears out the gun much faster, the negative effects that happen in worn ammo are much more common, and their effects are multiplied. There's also a good chance you'll have a misfire (~15%)

- Destroyed ammunition should still be able to be loaded and used, but wears out the gun extremely quickly and always suffers from major drawbacks. You should also have many, many misfires. Some bullets may not fire off at all and need to be ejected.

 

This, of course, would tie into a reliability system. Guns like the AKM and Mosin would experience less misfires and be worn down slower but are also inferior to more advanced counterparts in terms of capability.

[Whyherro123 2283]

Right now the only adverse effect you'll have is that ruined ammunition simply will not fire.

 

Honestly the effects of bullet condition should be ramped up quite a bit;

- Pristine ammunition should work basically 100% of the time as intended with no adverse effects.

- Worn ammunition should still function pretty well, although it should wear out the gun faster and sometimes be less accurate/powerful or have lower velocity, and a have a small chance to misfire (effects should be unpredictable, meaning that not every shot is reduced in power or inaccurate, but some also suffer from combinations of said effects.)

- Damaged ammunition should be problematic to use; Wears out the gun much faster, the negative effects that happen in worn ammo are much more common, and their effects are multiplied. There's also a good chance you'll have a misfire (~15%)

- Destroyed ammunition should still be able to be loaded and used, but wears out the gun extremely quickly and always suffers from major drawbacks. You should also have many, many misfires. Some bullets may not fire off at all and need to be ejected.

 

This, of course, would tie into a reliability system. Guns like the AKM and Mosin would experience less misfires and be worn down slower but are also inferior to more advanced counterparts in terms of capability.

YESSSSSSS

[Judopunch 523]

That's the problem, artificial balancing. Assault Rifles are used for a reason. They're the most modern, effective, and versatile weapons available in real life currently. They can be effective both at range and in CQC. Whats not to love?

 

However, in DayZ they are made into weapons that are only effective at CQC. You barely have any range. Why? Spread, dispersion, all of that. Put in to balance something in a survival game. Why would you balance in a survival game?

 

In real life, I'd much prefer an AR-15 with an optical scope over a shitty little Mosin for ranged engagements. Though the caliber is a bit less beefy, the Mosin is a 100 or so year old firearm that wouldn't hold up that much. Plus, the AR-15 is semi-automatic and has a larger magazine. In all ways, it is a better firearm, except for its caliber.

 

Plus, there are Assault Rifles that fire the same round a Mosin does. The HK417, that allows you to do some long range shooting with a 7.62x51 without having to pull back bolts or worry about low magazine capacities. Want to go a bit down in the tech-line? The FN FAL is one of my favorite rifles and is, essentially, both a battle rifle and a marksman rifle. Its accurate over range but can still be used in medium range engagements and occasionally CQC.

 

In real life, there is no reason to use anything other then an assault rifle if you have the ammunition and the magazines. You can say they 'eat up ammo', but that isn't true. You can always flick on semi-automatic fire. They're not as insanely accurate as games and DayZ make you believe. They weren't made to spray and pray, they were made to hold up in every sort of engagement possible.

 

DayZ should make the assault rifles the ideal weapon for, well, anything. Screw artificial balancing - Simply make them rare. 

Give an average untrained person an assault rifle, have them spring 100 yards, then have them crouch and take a shot at a target 100 yards away. Let me know how that goes :P

 

In DayZ you don't need to worry about an unlimited amount of factors that affect a shot in real life. Its actually a bit to easy to down someone at 300 yards with a mosin and LRS.

 

In short DayZ is a game and it should be balanced accordingly, and besides the balance isnt finished yet. I would assume that when we have non pristine guns and attachments they will increase the accuracy of higher end weapons accordingly.

Edited December 11, 2014 by Judopunch

[NotRedd 51]

Even if there were dozens of zombies in the smallest of villages, you still would not "need" an assault rifle. That Blaze 95 and a pocketful of rounds could serve you just as well with some forethought, moving from cover to cover, and, most importantly, knowing when to flee.

 

 

Look m8, you need to take it easy. He likes assault rifles, quit getting your panties in a bunch.

[hells high 676]

Soviet snipers did just fine with the PU scope on their specialized Mosins.

[irishroy 1347]

sorry to burst into the discussion, but:

 

 

from the weekly letter: 

 

 

We’re also working on a Winchester Model 70 Alaskan which means I need to get off my butt and figure out a design for scope situation (i.e. one scope for many rifles).

 

chris' post:

http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/208692-do-you-think-the-lrs-will-be-removed-from-mosin-when/?p=2090576

 

The blase has something like divots in its barrel which allows for attachment of a saddle mount - a type of mount which cannot be used on any other of our guns. That means the only way to satisfy the 'realism' junkies is to create a specific Blaze scope which can't be used on any other weapon.  

Alternatively we introduce a generic 'scope' and then make people find the exact mount they need to attach to a given rifle and craft them together, which is a lot more work involving both the art and design team and has the end result of making it easier for there to be more leet snip0rs killing other players at long range - something we're not interested in encouraging at the moment.  

 

 

 

 

does that mean the Blaze 95 will receive a scope, too?? :D

Edited December 18, 2014 by irishroy

[igor-vk 909]

Damn, alaskan is not in 0.52 experimental. We won't see it this year in game.

[irishroy 1347]

You're dreaming. The Blaze is a filler piece of garbage, to be dropped for pretty much anything else.

The AKM and M4 are more than capable in any of those roles, and with a scope and a skilled hand make fine medium range marksman rifles. I've dropped people at 400meters with both and have no problem dropping animals with the same. They truly are 'jack of all trades' guns because the only role they don't do well is long range sniping, everything else from PVP to hunting they excel. I would carry a AKM over any other gun in the game if I had to choose.

Okay.

 

 

 

 

 

On a more serious note, tho:

Hasn't it ever occured to you, man, that DayZ is not about having the best gun, having the best clothing that gives the most slots in combination with having the best thermal-value in relation to being the most water-proof-factor while still remaining fairly camo-ed and giving enough protection against bullets AND melee? DayZ is also not about dropping people at 400m. Never..?

Even Chris Torchia, the lead-art-designer said "...the end result of making it easier for there to be more leet snip0rs killing other players at long range - something we're not interested in encouraging at the moment"

 

DayZ is not about being the super-hero posing around with the "best" weapon.

If you want to be a poser, play CoD and do no-scope-kill-montages.

Edited December 18, 2014 by irishroy