Implement a Moral stat?

[ValentinBk (DayZ) 60]

Should we look at the possible outcomes? I am assuming that KoSers accept death as a normal part of the game so, for them, death isn't really a negative factor.

• If a KoSer meets another KoSer there will be a shootout with the more perceptive person getting a distinct advantage due to noticing the other player first. But, for the sake of argument, let's say that there is a 50% chance of death for either player in this scenario. The surviving player gets all gear from other player.
• If a KoSer meets a non-KoSer the aggressor will most likely win. Let's say that there is a 75% chance of death for the non-KoSer. The surviving player gets all gear from other player.
• If a non-KoSer meets another non-KoSer then the best than can be hoped for is a can of beans or an untrustworthy traveling companion.

So if we just take these three scenarios into account, along with the fact that KoSers don't care if they die, it appears that always choosing to KoS will more often result in an advantageous position for the KoSer, especially as their skill with the game increases and they are able to put themselves into more advantageous positions over other players.

Do you see the situation differently?

*I don't think KOS`ers don't care about dying. It takes time to get basic gear in DayZ, and you can easily die trying to acquire it. If I'd get a quarter for every time I thought "Great! More rounds for a gun I don't have" I'd probably be able to increase the size of my Steam library quite a bit.

*Like I said before, when you choose to KOS, no one said you will have success. There are so many variables, you can't simply put a "75% success rate" on this one, because its just not true.

*When you shoot someone you damage\destroy their gear based on where you hit them. Unless you headshot every time, you never get all of their gear.

 

But that's all just getting into the little details. The bottom line is, and I`ll say it once again - you can do whatever you want in DayZ. There are no "teams", no "morals" and once you die - you really die. These are some of the basics in DayZ, and I hope they will never change.

[scriptfactory 620]

Excellent write-up Evil. I will read this in-depth and try to learn some of the concepts you are talking about.
 

This also shows some reasons for friendly behavior and thats why I think that is is absolutely vital to be able to recognise specific individuals ingame via non-changeable aspects like face or body shape (or even name though I don't like this because it feels unimmersive).

 

Player identification in DayZ is woefully lacking. I believe that gameplay would improve if unchangeable, unique player names were shown in-game. This current player-guessing situation (akin to prosopagnosia) we currently have is fairly unrealistic and disorienting. In my opinion it is no less immersive than the status messages we currently get that tell us our character is getting warmer, colder, warmer, colder, wetter, etc. Party identification, perhaps in the form of the Arma 3 hexes, would also have a minimal impact on immersion (I hate this word) for most of us while allowing players to recognize friendlies in their communities and keep out strangers.

 

What I would really like to see is a realistic way for players to safely interact and trade with each other. Not safezones but some kind of in-game feature like barricaded windows/doors or barricaded cars that allow players to trade from relative safety, thereby allowing for trust between players to grow organically.

[scriptfactory 620]

*I don't think KOS`ers don't care about dying. It takes time to get basic gear in DayZ, and you can easily die trying to acquire it. If I'd get a quarter for every time I thought "Great! More rounds for a gun I don't have" I'd probably be able to increase the size of my Steam library quite a bit.

 

Well, I am a KoSer and I don't care about dying. After 500 hours in the game the only thing that frustrates me is hackers. Sometimes I suicide on purpose just to gear up again. It is, pretty much, the best part of the game for me.

 

*Like I said before, when you choose to KOS, no one said you will have success. There are so many variables, you can't simply put a "75% success rate" on this one, because its just not true.

 

I just assigned arbitrary values to the different outcomes based on my intuition. Instead of looking at the specifics of the post it would be great to hear your opinion on KoS. Do you think there is another (more "rewarding") method of play?

 

*When you shoot someone you damage\destroy their gear based on where you hit them. Unless you headshot every time, you never get all of their gear.

Since I don't care about gear (like many others) I am not sure what this means. Even after gear is more rare I will simply knock people out, take their gear and kill them with it. Just like I do now.

 

My responses are in red above. :)

[Mullraugh 1151]

Seems Far to Unrealistic to Require More Food and Water to Survive Just Because you Are Surviving Alone

Some People Arent Lone Wolves Because they Want to Kill Players Either So Doesnt Realy Discourage KOS Just Makes Hermits KOS More

Most Bandits or KOS'ers i Have Seen Roam in Packs So Would Be Uneffected

And Forcing Player Interaction isnt Realistic in an Apocolypse Survival or Anywere Realy i think Should Always Be a Choice Not a Forced thing

Not all People are Social People Who Need 24/7 Companionship to Survive and Developers Would Be ones Drawing the Line For Every Individual Telling them What they Need Which i Feel Ruins the Immersion of a Simulator myself

According to specialists in the field of survival (such as Les Stroud), Lonliness and Boredom are major detrimental factors that can lead to death in a survival situation. It makes sense that you would be more anxious, nervous or hopeless if you had no contact with humans in a situation that could possibly kill you, meaning you would 'realistically' burn more calories and loose hydration from sweating and all the other symptoms that come from shock or panic.

I expected the usual "if you kill somone you should go insane" kind of post, but this is honestly the best post regarding KoS and how to balance it i have ever seen, so OP, here are the first can of beans I have ever given to someone on these forums

I don't 100% agree with everything being suggested, but that's why we are here. We, the community, should see this as a post to improve, not say "this isnt sims no" and leave. Put your constructive criticism in and help out, because this is one of better suggestions out there.

Edited October 2, 2014 by mullraugh

[nokyookami 63]

According to specialists in the field of survival (such as Les Stroud), Lonliness and Boredom are major detrimental factors that can lead to death in a survival situation. It makes sense that you would be more anxious, nervous or hopeless if you had no contact with humans in a situation that could possibly kill you, meaning you would 'realistically' burn more calories and loose hydration from sweating and all the other symptoms that come from shock or panic.

I expected the usual "if you kill somone you should go insane" kind of post, but this is honestly the best post regarding KoS and how to balance it i have ever seen, so OP, here are the first can of beans I have ever given to someone on these forums

I don't 100% agree with everything being suggested, but that's why we are here. We, the community, should see this as a post to improve, not say "this isnt sims no" and leave. Put your constructive criticism in and help out, because this is one of better suggestions out there.

I Wasnt Trying to Be Unconstructive Just Saying I Play as a Lone WOlf Because People Make Me Nervous xD And Prefer To Be Safe than Dead

But am not a KOS'er Either And Being Punished for Playing Mostly Alone And that Forcing Me to Need more Food and Water than Everyone Else i Feel is Not Fair 

Not Everyone is Lonely and Jumpy By them Selves

For Instance Crowds Would Make Me Far More Nervous and Burn More Calories than Some Alone time in the Woods and I Dont think Developers SHould Force Every Person in the Same Mold thats all ^_^

Would Rather they Not Force Everyone to talk  to other Players  Every Day

I Enjoy Being Able to Choose when and Who i Approuch Not Have a Nagging Annoying Handycap Until i Go out and talk to Players thats All

just Feel Overall this Causes Alot of Issues and Forces a Certain Playstyle on everyone

WHich is a Nice thing About DayZ that Drew me in Initialy is that it isnt a Cookie Cutter Cast System

You Blaze your own Trail ^_^

Edited October 2, 2014 by NokyoOkami

[Cpanther 221]

According to specialists in the field of survival (such as Les Stroud), Lonliness and Boredom are major detrimental factors that can lead to death in a survival situation. It makes sense that you would be more anxious, nervous or hopeless if you had no contact with humans in a situation that could possibly kill you, meaning you would 'realistically' burn more calories and loose hydration from sweating and all the other symptoms that come from shock or panic.

I expected the usual "if you kill somone you should go insane" kind of post, but this is honestly the best post regarding KoS and how to balance it i have ever seen, so OP, here are the first can of beans I have ever given to someone on these forums

I don't 100% agree with everything being suggested, but that's why we are here. We, the community, should see this as a post to improve, not say "this isnt sims no" and leave. Put your constructive criticism in and help out, because this is one of better suggestions out there.

 

Loneliness and Boredom in the internet and in a "game" ? Obviously is some things that will stupid to replicate in; A) The internet, the most used form of communication in the world.. and B ). A game, that is for "Entertainment".

Edited October 2, 2014 by Cpanther

[pale1776 375]

Loneliness and Boredom in the internet and in a "game" ? Obviously is some things that will stupid to replicate in; A) The internet, the most used form of communication in the world.. and B ). A game, that is for "Entertainment".

Well actually, DayZ is an ANTI-game. Its meant to be so boring, and such a challenge that only true DayZers will play it (like the mod was before codkiddies decided to make codkiddie mods)

Hell, these people cry about their immersion if they are in fear of not playing CodZ, OH GOD MY IMMERSION, THESE GUYS DONT HAVE REAL LIFE SIDE AFFECTS FROM BEING MASS MURDERING DOUCHES! What about MY and other true DayZers immersion?

I wonder how these guys will handle it when theres like 5 boxes of ammo per server and the death/ server change timer is implemented... I guess theyll go back to turning friendly fire on in BOZombies.

[Cpanther 221]

Well actually, DayZ is an ANTI-game. Its meant to be so boring, and such a challenge that only true DayZers will play it (like the mod was before codkiddies decided to make codkiddie mods)

Hell, these people cry about their immersion if they are in fear of not playing CodZ, OH GOD MY IMMERSION, THESE GUYS DONT HAVE REAL LIFE SIDE AFFECTS FROM BEING MASS MURDERING DOUCHES! What about MY and other true DayZers immersion?

I wonder how these guys will handle it when theres like 5 boxes of ammo per server and the death/ server change timer is implemented... I guess theyll go back to turning friendly fire on in BOZombies.

 

It depends on what you see as "entertainment"... most games like CoD bores me, because they never offer anything new.. just the same crap over and over again in different colors. A hardcore survival game will be entertainment for me.. because is something new, and different.. not just the same crap repeated a million times by 20 different gaming companies.

 

If DayZ is just going to be another version of Battlefield .. i don't think it will never be a game for me.

Edited October 2, 2014 by Cpanther

[Evil Minion 943]

Well actually, DayZ is an ANTI-game. Its meant to be so boring, and such a challenge that only true DayZers will play it

Well "anti-game" is less like "not a game" and more like "not like the usual easymode pc games". Also its not meant to be boring - its still meant to give you an exciting experience - which may include phases of "nothing happens" - because this leaves you in the dark whether or when something is happening. Those phases might also serve as cost attached to certain decisions (like camping a spot and waiting for victims).

 

And the same way you should be left in the dark about morals - no "humanity stat", no artificial reward for "good deeds", no artificial reward for "bad deeds" - because all those things would just hardcode a certain moral codex into the game. Instead morality should originate from the game and its dynamics. What do we need for this?

• Player/Character recognition (face, body etc. - no magic)
• NO hardcoded moral codex
• different ways of communication:
  • direct speech
  • indirect speech (e.g. Walkie-Talkies)
  • written notes (that stay persistent for some time)
  • drawings (both on notes and wall etc.)

Other things that help are a challenging environment (more reason to get/provide help, a "common enemy" to fight), cooperative goals (more reason to work together) and a high variety of items (clothes, weapons, roleplay, vanity etc.).

[scriptfactory 620]

• Player/Character recognition (face, body etc. - no magic)
• NO hardcoded moral codex
• different ways of communication:
  • direct speech
  • indirect speech (e.g. Walkie-Talkies)
  • written notes (that stay persistent for some time)
  • drawings (both on notes and wall etc.)

 

So, basically, you just want a better character editor because everything else is already in-game.

[Destructo_Brat 45]

Just picture a world without facebook and all of the lovely little things we have in real life. Take all of that away except you only have a flashlight and a battery. That alone is enough to make you kill someone on sight.

 

No its not.

Having only a flashlight and a battery Doesnt make me want to kill anyone.

Maybe its just you..

[General Zod 1118]

isn't fair to force someone to play a style they don't want to. 

 

 

I think it would be cool to add a modifier that affects "healthy" status by say ..making you more anxious and burn more calories at rest or rather all the time ... because you are lonely, afraid ,paranoid etc and havent spent time around other players. 

 

The longer you are away from other people you eventually cap some type of insanity modifier, this encourages you to hoard more than normal players and go through more food and items which of course ..entices you to kill more people on sight for their loot. But most new spawns will succumb to this so this would be cool.

 

First you say that you don't want to force any type of play, than you say that playing as a lone wolf will have quite serious results on hunger and thirst. Sounds like forcing to me. 

Second, no we don't need to discourage KoS. Welcome to SANDBOX MADAFAKA.....

Where we can do as we please and face no game enforced consequences. 

Edited October 2, 2014 by General Zod

[scriptfactory 620]

Welcome to SANDBOX MADAFAKA.....

 

What exactly do you think "sandbox" means in relation to video games? It doesn't mean FFA DM.

Edited October 2, 2014 by scriptfactory

[General Zod 1118]

What exactly do you think "sandbox" means in relation to video games? It doesn't mean FFA DM.

No once forces you to kill. No one forces you NOT to kill. You do as you please, game will not reward nor punish you for your desired play style. 

This is what I mean by sandbox, game does not limit your actions by some enforced rules or moral codes. 

[over9000nukez 199]

i think being social should be enough of a reward, being social you can gain things from others.

 

on the other hand killing people you see (anti-social) and be unrewarding, or rewarding, if he has friends or not.

 

dont force effects on other players, the effect should be real, just like in a fight in dayz your heart pumps, or you feel bad for killing your friend by accident, you dont need a fake emotion bar to tell you that.

[General Zod 1118]

The game is yours. None shall interfere. Do as you please.

[scriptfactory 620]

No once forces you to kill. No one forces you NOT to kill. You do as you please, game will not reward nor punish you for your desired play style. 

This is what I mean by sandbox, game does not limit your actions by some enforced rules or moral codes. 

All games have rules. Eve Online is, perhaps, the greatest sandbox game ever created and it has rules and limits your actions. Even DayZ has rules and limitations in the form of game mechanics like player respawn, health management and limited run speed. A game can be classified as a sandbox regardless of the presence (or absence) of rules. I would argue that the presence of rules is what has kept the Eve successful for the past 10-11 years.

[Elle 562]

All games have rules. Eve Online is, perhaps, the greatest sandbox game ever created and it has rules and limits your actions. Even DayZ has rules and limitations in the form of game mechanics like player respawn, health management and limited run speed. A game can be classified as a sandbox regardless of the presence (or absence) of rules. I would argue that the presence of rules is what has kept the Eve successful for the past 10-11 years.

so what rules were there in eve? if I recall a bit of banditry in hisec was simply responded to with a police action but this did not prevent the banditry in the first place as some people think its funny to try and pirate a capitol mining ship in hisec but hey their loss, and lowsec?? I simply couldn't risk the big ships there so it was always stealth and speed. I do not recall having the game ever tell me that I couldn't do something (unless it was outside the working parameters of the game engine and that's a physics issue anyway) I did get plenty of warnings on the consequences of my actions however. that is not the same as having "rules" as I was still free to ignore the warnings and risk my investments. with the exception of concord presence in hisec (and even that can change with a vote) all of the so called "rules" are provided by the various corps that run the game and the corps are the pilots. after all jita won't burn itself.

 

I also question the whole "greatest sandbox game ever created" meme but hey your opinion and you are entitled it.

[Xbow 362]

We need a way to discourage kill on sight but it also isn't fair to force someone to play a style they don't want to. So we need bonuses and modifiers that are fair on both sides of the fence. What I just thought of only caters to the "social" player. 

 

In the goal of making this an immersive experience, regardless of nutrition, hydration or gear set ..people in general tend to break down quicker without social contact. 

 

I think it would be cool to add a modifier that affects "healthy" status by say ..making you more anxious and burn more calories at rest or rather all the time ... because you are lonely, afraid ,paranoid etc and havent spent time around other players. 

 

The longer you are away from other people you eventually cap some type of insanity modifier, this encourages you to hoard more than normal players and go through more food and items which of course ..entices you to kill more people on sight for their loot. But most new spawns will succumb to this so this would be cool.

 

if you really want to play with others, you will find food more filling, water lasts longer ... when you are doing "social" things.

 

being a lone wolf who kills players on sight will eventually result in your having an "annoying" but not unplayable level of hunger and thirst. but things like a simple camp fire, a tent OR music ...could allow you to sustain yourself and "restore" some of your social sanity. 

 

Whereas players who choose to interact with other players, being around other living players also serves the same goal. 

 

Just an idea ... Along with hunger and thirst ..adding a third dynamic of "Mood" to overall health , (with interacting with others being the strongest reward ..but with plenty of other options for the anti social player also ...) would make things a lot more interesting. 

 

You could even scale it with player intent AND character via actions. the more a player kills other players, the less benefit he gains "mood wise" from being with other players but he can still choose solitary activies such as ...being around a fireplace or in a structure he has built. These will restore his mood. 

 

you kill too much, and you stop gaining any benefit from being around players. Since it adjusts to fit your characters play style. But a person who chooses to work with others will always gain an advantage in mood regen since social characters will have higher moods as long as they are together, regardless of place or time. 

Its interesting idea but too much like an RPG and I'm not sure we need the thought police to enforce civilization on anyone. As for myself I could give a shit about others and tend to stay away from contact for my benefit and the benefit of others that I will always see as a threat. Do we really need a Kumbaya statistic? And to say that people need contact with others to remain sane in a survival situation is absurd. Perhaps we should introduce infants into the mix so those inclined to do so can run around searching for diapers, baby clothes, and baby formula..wouldn't that be fun. 

 

I do quite well on my own without helping or hurting anyone.  If I decide to do either its because that is what I want to do. Sometimes I have fun by dropping an extra gun and some supplies on a newspawn and sometimes I have fun killing well equipped guys that live for ambushing other players for no reason other than the joy of the kill.      

 

And the idea of discouraging KoS is absurd KoS is a survival mechanism. Why do I KoS potential threats? Fear and because it is better to give pain than receive it.  

Edited October 2, 2014 by Xbow

[scriptfactory 620]

so what rules were there in eve? if I recall a bit of banditry in hisec was simply responded to with a police action but this did not prevent the banditry in the first place as some people think its funny to try and pirate a capitol mining ship in hisec but hey their loss, and lowsec?? I simply couldn't risk the big ships there so it was always stealth and speed. I do not recall having the game ever tell me that I couldn't do something (unless it was outside the working parameters of the game engine and that's a physics issue anyway) I did get plenty of warnings on the consequences of my actions however. that is not the same as having "rules" as I was still free to ignore the warnings and risk my investments.

I am talking about "rules" in the context that most people on these forums seem to understand them.

 

rule n.

  a principle or regulation governing conduct, action, procedure, arrangement, etc.

 

 

• An NPC faction (CONCORD) adds structure to gameplay. It forces players to be conscientious of their actions or face the possibility that traveling through certain areas will be extremely hard.
• Eve Online bans players for real-life death/rape threats. DayZ doesn't even have a mechanic to report players.
• The player-based economy has its own rules. Players have to trade according to the structure setup by the Eve Market. You can't just trade however you wish across whatever distance. You have to travel to your station of choice to actually make the trade.
• Safezones.
• etc.

 

I also question the whole "greatest sandbox game ever created" meme but hey your opinion and you are entitled it.

This is why I said "perhaps". If you want, substitute this word with "arguably".

[General Zod 1118]

I am talking about "rules" in the context that most people on these forums seem to understand them.

Well we are talking about rules that OP wants to enforce on people. That it's the game punishing you for being a killer not other players. 

[Elle 562]

I am talking about "rules" in the context that most people on these forums seem to understand them.

ahh gotcha ;)

[scriptfactory 620]

Well we are talking about rules that OP wants to enforce on people. That it's the game punishing you for being a killer not other players. 

 

You mean like Eve does with their CONCORD NPC faction, right? Because that is exactly the same thing.

[blunce 991]

Take a look at how this thread went:

 

http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/210730-you-show-me-yours-ill-show-you-mine/

[Sleeves 98]

How about an extensive reporting funtion for people who kill others without reason? Should the person be found guilty of killing on sight then they will be banned for three days or so.