DayZ Development progress makes no sense

[Doomlord52 62]

Edit: As some of you pointed out, I accidentally said vehicle prototyping should be done in beta. I meant to say Alpha. This was my mistake, and it has been corrected. Sorry for the confusion this caused.

 

DayZ Development progress makes no sense


Firstly, this isn't a "this game is buggy" post. This is the exact opposite of this: it's a look at how the devs are handling the game, and how their actions don't fit that of a game that IS in alpha. It's also a look at how the game has been progressing, and how they will likely continue in the future.
 
Firstly, let's quickly look at what an "alpha" is. From the so-often cited wiki page, "The alpha phase of the release life cycle is the first phase to begin software testing". What this means, is that your product is at the point where it's playable (ignoring crashes, bugs, etc.), and you want to start getting feedback on mechanics: "Does movement feel good", "does combat feel right", etc. It's also the point at which you expand on mechanics to some degree. If your game starts Alpha with only a semi-auto rifle, you might want to add in variations like an automatic rifle or a pistol. Similarily, you might want to add in new mechanics, like vehicles, or base building - basically things which aren't just expansions of already existing gameplay mechanics - things which need to be made for the ground-up.

Secondly, let's also quickly look at what a "beta" is. Again, from the same wiki page: "Beta is the software development phase following alpha. It generally begins when the software is feature complete". Basically, once your game works from a feature standpoint (i.e. I have my SMG, rifle and pistol mechanics and my movement mechanics, etc.), you polish them. This ranges from improving art, to refining balance, and increasing variation (i.e. low RoF, high damage SMG, high RoF, low damage SMG) and of course polishing them from a technical standpoint (performance, code cleanliness, etc.).

So, we now understand what alpha and beta phases are - so, which is DayZ? Well, it's an akward limbo between the two, where it seems like one group belives it's a beta, and the other belives it's an Alpha. Why? Well, look at the patch notes as well as the existing stuff that has been added since the December release. Let's start with today's status report, which basically demonstrates my main argument: that the dev team has no idea if this is alpha or beta.

The first topic is loot distribution and adding "more granular control over the quantity of each type of item that spawns". This isn't a feature, this is feature refinement - balance adjustment. Fine tuning the amount and types of loot that drop isn't a new feature, it's a variation of an existing feature, and a minor one at that. This is something that should be happening in beta - not alpha. Further down we have "The Rossi R92 is finished being animated. We're just waiting for sounds and then it'll be good to go.  The animators also began work on the M133 earlier this week so it won't be too far behind the repeater.". Again, why? This is a new weapon - a variation on a system which already works. DayZ has weapons, the weapons work as weapons. Hence, that feature is from an alpha standpoint, complete. While an argument could be made for the weapon feature to be truely complete it needs to have a larger variation of weapons, this simply isn't supported by the dev actions. These weapons are being rigged, textured, and in the case of the AK101, re-textured. None of this has any place in an alpha - this is all stuff which should be happening in early beta. If it were truely an Alpha, weapons would only exist for the sake of feature testing - not art. As a result, they would likely be borowed from other BI Games (i.e. ARMA2&3).

Scrolling down further on the status report, we are just left with item after item of what would be beta-status changes: New 55-gallon drum art, New zombie skins, AK101 retexture. Of all these art changes, the only ones which make any sense are the addition of the smoke grenades (new mechanic - smoke nades) and waterproof bags. Every single other art change is something which should be occuring in beta. The animation changes are also what should be done in beta: "BugFixing" - this is a purely Beta+ feature. An alpha, by nature, SHOULD be full of bugs, since fixing them isn't the top priority. Beta is when you remove bugs and increase usability. "Bow animation polishing" - I don't even need to comment on this.
 
Scripting is the one area which gets some actual credit:

• Vehicle classification prototyping
• Vehicle component prototyping

This is what SHOULD be done during a alpha (this used to say beta, I typed wrong - SORRY). Prototyping and addition of new features. However, our good friend "bug fixing" is still there. It's also there in programming, which has another DayZ-"alpha" feature, 'Code cleaning and optimizations' - something which, again, should only be done once the game is feature complete.
 
Lastly, I want to bring up something that everyone has been asking for for a long time: vehicles. The approach taken on this also makes very little sense. From what we've heard from people like Dean, the idea is to implement vehicles, vehicle repair and vehicle 'combining' (red door from one car onto other blue car). This isn't how you would do an alpha feature implementation. From a logical standpoint, the first feature which is required for testing is vehicles. As such, what you would implement is vehicles which spawn. In a true alpha, these vehicles would be pretty basic in terms of gameplay. Initially they would be invincible with infinite fuel, but once features such as fuel and damage were implemented, they would take on those characteristics. As mehcanics such as using parts to repair were added, the vehicle mechanic as a whole would advance, until it is feature complete. However, this isn't how the devs are handling this. They instead want to one-shot the ENTIRE vehicle system, with repairing, fueling, combining parts, etc. This is NOT how you do an alpha.
 
 
So where does this leave us? Well, it leaves us in a situation where there's realistically very little hope of the game being even feature complete any time soon. If we're lucky, we'll hit that point at the end of 2015, meaning that it'll have taken over two years to get out of alpha. However, this shouldn't be the case. DayZ is built upon an already existing framework. Adding new features, such as vehicles, should not take all that long to implement.
 
As it stands, the current Steam page is a lie: It states that DayZ is "in alpha" and that you shouldn't buy "unless you want to actively support the development of the game". Neither of these statements are true. As shown above, the devs (somehow) belive that DayZ is in BETA, and they do NOT want people actively supporting the devlopment of the game, short of giving them money. If the statements were true, we would have far fewer guns/shirts/hats and the initial stages of the vehicles available for play.
 
Basically, I don't want my money back: I want to know what the ~$75 million in sales has gone, because it sure hasn't gone into making an 'open' and 'community supported' development cycle.

Edited September 6, 2014 by Doomlord52

[mattr19 24]

Not reading a thing u say. No one cares what you think. The game will be great, be patient.

[mattr19 24]

Would you want to talk to a community that whines about everything, bitches constantly, and acts like they could make a game better than you? I enjoy reading the status reports and following the game, but it is becoming clear that the development team does not even like talking to us anymore because of people like you that don't know anything about anything constantly spewing garbage. Makes me sick. Sorry for rambling, but you ungrateful people need to learn your role and be quiet.

[Lady Kyrah 1109]

They'll do whatever the hell they want.

[Kronons 98]

Firstly, this isn't a "this game is buggy" post. This is the exact opposite of this: it's a look at how the devs are handling the game, and how their actions don't fit that of a game that IS in alpha. It's also a look at how the game has been progressing, and how they will likely continue in the future.

 

Firstly, let's quickly look at what an "alpha" is. From the so-often cited wiki page, "The alpha phase of the release life cycle is the first phase to begin software testing". What this means, is that your product is at the point where it's playable (ignoring crashes, bugs, etc.), and you want to start getting feedback on mechanics: "Does movement feel good", "does combat feel right", etc. It's also the point at which you expand on mechanics to some degree. If your game starts Alpha with only a semi-auto rifle, you might want to add in variations like an automatic rifle or a pistol. Similarily, you might want to add in new mechanics, like vehicles, or base building - basically things which aren't just expansions of already existing gameplay mechanics - things which need to be made for the ground-up.

Secondly, let's also quickly look at what a "beta" is. Again, from the same wiki page: "Beta is the software development phase following alpha. It generally begins when the software is feature complete". Basically, once your game works from a feature standpoint (i.e. I have my SMG, rifle and pistol mechanics and my movement mechanics, etc.), you polish them. This ranges from improving art, to refining balance, and increasing variation (i.e. low RoF, high damage SMG, high RoF, low damage SMG) and of course polishing them from a technical standpoint (performance, code cleanliness, etc.).

So, we now understand what alpha and beta phases are - so, which is DayZ? Well, it's an akward limbo between the two, where it seems like one group belives it's a beta, and the other belives it's an Alpha. Why? Well, look at the patch notes as well as the existing stuff that has been added since the December release. Let's start with today's status report, which basically demonstrates my main argument: that the dev team has no idea if this is alpha or beta.

The first topic is loot distribution and adding "more granular control over the quantity of each type of item that spawns". This isn't a feature, this is feature refinement - balance adjustment. Fine tuning the amount and types of loot that drop isn't a new feature, it's a variation of an existing feature, and a minor one at that. This is something that should be happening in beta - not alpha. Further down we have "The Rossi R92 is finished being animated. We're just waiting for sounds and then it'll be good to go.  The animators also began work on the M133 earlier this week so it won't be too far behind the repeater.". Again, why? This is a new weapon - a variation on a system which already works. DayZ has weapons, the weapons work as weapons. Hence, that feature is from an alpha standpoint, complete. While an argument could be made for the weapon feature to be truely complete it needs to have a larger variation of weapons, this simply isn't supported by the dev actions. These weapons are being rigged, textured, and in the case of the AK101, re-textured. None of this has any place in an alpha - this is all stuff which should be happening in early beta. If it were truely an Alpha, weapons would only exist for the sake of feature testing - not art. As a result, they would likely be borowed from other BI Games (i.e. ARMA2&3).

Scrolling down further on the status report, we are just left with item after item of what would be beta-status changes: New 55-gallon drum art, New zombie skins, AK101 retexture. Of all these art changes, the only ones which make any sense are the addition of the smoke grenades (new mechanic - smoke nades) and waterproof bags. Every single other art change is something which should be occuring in beta. The animation changes are also what should be done in beta: "BugFixing" - this is a purely Beta+ feature. An alpha, by nature, SHOULD be full of bugs, since fixing them isn't the top priority. Beta is when you remove bugs and increase usability. "Bow animation polishing" - I don't even need to comment on this.

 

Scripting is the one area which gets some actual credit:

• Vehicle classification prototyping
• Vehicle component prototyping

This is what SHOULD be done during a beta. Prototyping and addition of new features. However, our good friend "bug fixing" is still there. It's also there in programming, which has another DayZ-"alpha" feature, 'Code cleaning and optimizations' - something which, again, should only be done once the game is feature complete.

 

Lastly, I want to bring up something that everyone has been asking for for a long time: vehicles. The approach taken on this also makes very little sense. From what we've heard from people like Dean, the idea is to implement vehicles, vehicle repair and vehicle 'combining' (red door from one car onto other blue car). This isn't how you would do an alpha feature implementation. From a logical standpoint, the first feature which is required for testing is vehicles. As such, what you would implement is vehicles which spawn. In a true alpha, these vehicles would be pretty basic in terms of gameplay. Initially they would be invincible with infinite fuel, but once features such as fuel and damage were implemented, they would take on those characteristics. As mehcanics such as using parts to repair were added, the vehicle mechanic as a whole would advance, until it is feature complete. However, this isn't how the devs are handling this. They instead want to one-shot the ENTIRE vehicle system, with repairing, fueling, combining parts, etc. This is NOT how you do an alpha.

 

 

So where does this leave us? Well, it leaves us in a situation where there's realistically very little hope of the game being even feature complete any time soon. If we're lucky, we'll hit that point at the end of 2015, meaning that it'll have taken over two years to get out of alpha. However, this shouldn't be the case. DayZ is built upon an already existing framework. Adding new features, such as vehicles, should not take all that long to implement.

 

As it stands, the current Steam page is a lie: It states that DayZ is "in alpha" and that you shouldn't buy "unless you want to actively support the development of the game". Neither of these statements are true. As shown above, the devs (somehow) belive that DayZ is in BETA, and they do NOT want people actively supporting the devlopment of the game, short of giving them money. If the statements were true, we would have far fewer guns/shirts/hats and the initial stages of the vehicles available for play.

 

Basically, I don't want my money back: I want to know what the ~$75 million in sales has gone, because it sure hasn't gone into making an 'open' and 'community supported' development cycle.

 

I didn't even bother to read what you wrote. Let me tell you why. Wikipedia is a not reputable source. Any college student knows that anyone can go on there and post whatever they want. If your going to make an argument first find a reputable source. Second do your due diligence and research the subject matter. Look at developers posts and use them as evidence to support your claim. Good day. Also if you don't like how development is going. Then wait and play beta or release. Or don't play at all.  

[chodeofwar 145]

Hmmm interesting perspective you have there. 

 

Maybe you could suggest some options on how the dev team could improve their performance and productivity?

[hothtimeblues 128]

They'll do whatever the hell they want.

....because we gave them so much money upfront.

Just saying.

[Baker. 1484]

Are we even allowed to tldr posts like everybody is doing? Cause imma start if thats cool now.

Edited September 6, 2014 by Bakermensch

[Statik (DayZ) 2695]

I didn't even bother to read what you wrote. Let me tell you why. Wikipedia is a not reputable source. Any college student knows that anyone can go on there and post whatever they want. If your going to make an argument first find a reputable source. Second do your due diligence and research the subject matter. Look at developers posts and use them as evidence to support your claim. Good day. Also if you don't like how development is going. Then wait and play beta or release. Or don't play at all.  

Wikipedia does have a section for references at the bottom, making it actually quiet a reputable source.

[Rags! 1966]

It's a shame that you spent such a long time thinking out this long and what I'm sure is a very thoughtful post about how the game isn't progressing fast enough for you, only to have 95.6% of people not read it and the other 4.4% read it only for teh lulz. 

 

These threads will never cease to amuse me and make me ashamed to be a gamer at the same time. 

 

Thank you for teh lulz. 

[TheWizard14 372]

I am disappointing in the replies from this community, because it's all utter bullshit from butthurt fans that aren't actual responses.

[Siberian (DayZ) 527]

do you hear that sound ???

 

its the footsteps of the Rocket fanboi defense force coming this way...

[Kronons 98]

Wikipedia does have a section for references at the bottom, making it actually quiet a reputable source.

 

Even with references it's not a reputable source. As I stated, anyone and I mean anyone can write on Wikipedia. Try to use Wikipedia on an educational paper. The teachers would give you an "F".

[hoik 415]

From what I took from you thread, you built an argument about your belief that dayZ is actually in a pseudo-beta state and by following that logic:

 

"As it stands, the current Steam page is a lie: It states that DayZ is "in alpha" and that you shouldn't buy "unless you want to actively support the development of the game". Neither of these statements are true. As shown above, the devs (somehow) belive that DayZ is in BETA, and they do NOT want people actively supporting the devlopment of the game, short of giving them money. If the statements were true, we would have far fewer guns/shirts/hats and the initial stages of the vehicles available for play."

 

And this is the crux of your argument - this i do not agree with. Up till this point I was could understand  your logic, I think anyone can see that there is a slight blurring of priorities between what needs to be done to advance the game and what needs to be done to keep the angry, spitting maw of the masses pleased. I have also seen post suggesting that the team is too focused on the "alpha" build and should in fact try harder to "re-pioneer their pioneering approach to early access" (not my words) to incorporate more aspects of beta!

 

So while I don't think some of the comments in this thread are helpful, I can completely sympathies with them. Sometime this shit just starts to get to you :( .

Edited September 6, 2014 by Hoik

[sausagekingofchicago 4711]

Quotes the definition of Beta including the phrase "feature complete" then suggests vehicles and other features shouldn't be added until Beta....  Righto.

[mustaruuti 2]

 

 

 

 I want to know what the ~$75 million in sales has gone, because it sure hasn't gone into making an 'open' and 'community supported' development cycle.

 

Playstation 4.

[Lady Kyrah 1109]

Basically, I don't want my money back: I want to know what the ~$75 million in sales has gone, because it sure hasn't gone into making an 'open' and 'community supported' development cycle.

Community supported doesn't mean listening to every gits on this forum.

[St. Jimmy 1631]

I believe same will happen for DayZ just like for Arma. The game will get features and stuff after v1.0 for a long time. That will make the game look like that it's never finished but really they could just lock the game down and not develop anything more. It's more interesting for me to watch a platform grow but it has its negative effects like a feeling the game is never completed until the next project is already out.

[Demoth 366]

do you hear that sound ???

its the footsteps of the Rocket fanboi defense force coming this way...

There is a huge difference between being a fanboy, and seeing whine threads popping up like weeds from spoiled brats who have no clue what they're talking about.

I'm going to put a game on Steam called, "Nothing". It's going to have a giant disclaimer saying that if you donate 30 bucks to my game, I will send you a thank you email and never work on the game.

Considering how stupid and hasty some people are, I'm guessing 5% of the people who got this Alpha will give me 30 bucks. That'll give me a few hundred thousand bucks.

I'll even make a forums where people can bitch that I'm doing exactly what I warned them I'd do (I'll never visit the forums).

[frozenjaws 69]

hmm let me be the first to justify your logic with a response.

"The first topic is loot distribution and adding "more granular control over the quantity of each type of item that spawns". This isn't a feature, this is feature refinement - balance adjustment. Fine tuning the amount and types of loot that drop isn't a new feature, it's a variation of an existing feature, and a minor one at that."

Here's where you went off a little, in fact dean has stated many many times that vehicles are going to be very rare, having some parts for advanced vehicles like choppers be extremely difficult to procure.

And with the loot system as it is, this is not possible. You would have an item with a certain spawn chance and it would spawn every so often, even after say maybe an advanced vehicle is already built or the parts are well distributed, which is something he has mentioned he doesn't want. Now with the central loot economy the plan is for them to be able to limit the amount of an specific item to a number for the entire hive and so in fact central loot economy is a absolute must have BEFORE vehicles are introduced. 

[GhostDivision (DayZ) 22]

 

-snip

 

QFT. I agree 100%. This isn't as much an "Alpha" as "Early release" for the people who loved the mod.

 

edit: that ninja merge. lol. 

[DMentMan 707]

Not reading a thing u say. No one cares what you think. The game will be great, be patient.

indeed.

[rybec 339]

Let me tell you why. Wikipedia is a not reputable source. Any college student knows that anyone can go on there and post whatever they want. If your going to make an argument first find a reputable source.

What are Wikipedia references?

[Ben_uk 24]

Well, the definition of a beta is that it's "feature complete". Since this isn't the case yet with dayz, it can only be an "alpha", simple.

[Schweinsteiger 107]

I read the entire post about alpha/beta and how Dayz is actually doing things that would be considered beta.

 

 

In reality there are no set of concrete rules a developer must follow but I do agree, technically we are already in the Beta stage.  Why all the ignorant comments directed at the OP? He said nothing controversial and he didn't attack the devs (at least not too much, there were some negative comments made). He just gave an opinion on the development of the game.

 

By the way, when comparing Dayz to H1Z1 (after watching the newest game play of H1Z1 on YouTube) Dayz is miles above, just way better all around. H1Z1 is a mixture of "7 days to die" and Dayz done badly.

 

DayZ, when finished, should be an awesome game to play. Currently it's all Pvp at the moment. Once you're done gearing up there isn't really anything else to do besides killing other players. This is a major weakness that needs to be addressed.

Edited September 6, 2014 by Schweinsteiger