What "End Game Gear" Should Theoretically Be Like At Release

[Chaingunfighter 917]

We don't NEED .380 or .45 ACP either, all handguns could be 9mm. Same with 7.62x39, there are 5.56x45mm AKs, SKS could be replaced with any one of several "civilian" semi-automatics. We don't "need" it for "mechanical" reasons, people want it because it's "authentic", "realistic", etc. It is only needed if they wanted to accurately portray the same Chernarus from ARMA II or create the most plausible weapon list for some "authentic" ex-Soviet country.

Realistic and authentic do not mean the same thing there.

 

A realistic experience would be one with all of the guns matching the setting completely and no discrepancies, while an authentic experience would be giving weapons, that specifically may not be too realistic, but as a whole "feel" like they should be in an environment. The AK101, while mostly unrealistic, absolutely "feels" like something you could see in an Eastern European country. It's not because it has be this specific variant, but because it's representing them. The Makarov is the same way, realistically they would've been better off making 9x18mm, but the .380 ACP IJ-70 also "feels" like something you could find.

 

The devs are taking the right path (at least to me). They're balancing realism and gameplay. Calibers and ammunition are being decided more pragmatically, but they still try and find room for guns that you realistically would find, in addition to ones that enhance the gameplay.

 

Then again, what "makes better gameplay" is highly subjective. Some people think that any degree of non-realism goes against the gameplay, so it's hard to argue.

[igor-vk 909]

What I liked in STALKER were unique weapons, like upgraded AK74, or silenced AK74U, or sniper Obokan. Something like that in DayZ would be great. Maybe few super rare atachments (night scope, silencer for AK, high capacity mag for pistols) that spawn maybe one or two on server once a week. Players who have them would have advantage over others, but they would be pray for all other players. 

.380 ACP is at this moment total failure. Only two weapons use it, its weaker than other cartridges but its allmost imposible to find PM and equip it with 3-4 mags. Not to say RAK that allmost doesnt spawn.

[Katana67 2907]

A realistic experience would be one with all of the guns matching the setting completely and no discrepancies

 

And either way, people's conception of what's "realistic," in the first place or "likely" is often times either baseless, or, not supported by any sort of statistical backing. And no, whipping out a standalone AK-74M statistic and saying "It's more common than the AR-15, therefore, the AR-15 shouldn't be included" is illogical and completely irrelevant.

 

Which is why I've always demonstrated three things...

 

1. That Chernarus/DayZ is fictional, thereby making it unburdened by strict adherence to full-time "realism"

 

2. That, even in reality, the Warsaw Pact/Eastern Bloc/Former Soviet countries have an increasingly diverse portfolio of small-arms (owing to a variety of factors, which include but are not limited to... in-house production, foreign weapons purchases, and a globalized arms trade)

 

3. That "realism," in and of itself, by its lonesome, is never a reason to do something or implement anything. It has to be taken into consideration along with everything else (including pragmatic game design choice, subjective considerations of what is "fun," and the two aforementioned topics above, etc.)

 

I've always taken issue with people's assumptions about what is normative in these countries in real life anyhow, hence why I've posted copious visual aides to demonstrate to the contrary. And, bear in mind, I've never asserted that these things should be common. Simply because something exists in a place, doesn't mean it exists everywhere in that place. But it's, ironically, "unrealistic" to categorically dismiss the idea of that weapon being in said place based upon a mere denial that X does not exist in Y.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Katana67

[igor-vk 909]

Well, if you like AR/M16 and its more rare than AKs you will work harder to get it and play more carefull so you dont lose it. That makes game harder and more interesting.

[hannibaldaplaya 1095]

Third, I think it's hilarious that you argue for weapon ammo to be rarer and then, in the same post, suggest that they add more ammo types.

 

.. What?

 

You can't have rare ammunition and tons of types of rounds?

 

It would only make sense. Plus, adding more types of ammo while making the rounds less common would lead to finding the rounds you need to become even more difficult then if there was only ten different kinds of ammunition.

 

I don't think you thought this through. Do you think adding new ammo types means ammo becomes easier to find? Its kinda the opposite.

[Caboose187 (DayZ) 3036]

There is no end game in a sandbox, plain and simple.  Why?  Because players can be whatever it is they want.

[hombrecz 832]

However, I still categorically reject the assertion that we need 5.45x39 to have certain weapons.

An overwhelming majority of 5.45x39 variants, have 7.62x39 counterparts. A round which we've already got.

 

 

What do you mean? That all AK's should be 7.62x39 or 5.56x45? WHY?

What is so wrong with providing proper 5.45x39 caliber, that would most importantly completely disconnect Warsaw pact weapons from NATO ones?

How can you properly tweak NATO weapon usage without hampering AK's, if they are in same caliber?

 

Is it not killing variety, which you seem to love some much, if AK's are only in 7.62 and 5.56?

What would be the difference between AKM and member of AK74 family in the same caliber?

 

I do get that you support Devs in almost anything they do, but this just seems unreasonable.

And yes, I'm fully aware that we had this discussion over and over again. I just could not resist...

[Irish. 4886]

A cave boarded up with bushes, branches and rocks, bearskin rug, elk, chicken and fish stocks, potato still for cave made vodka, warm clothes, ushunka, wellies, fishing gear, animal traps, crossbow and bow.

 

You forgot a cave woman/man to be your lover. ;)

[Deathlove 2286]

One day id like to see a simple grenade launcher in game. Nothing fancy you could still blow yourself up if not careful. And if they put wind in still that effects bullets i can see this being more of a limited tool rather than a spray and pray kind of gun. Could be ubber rare.

 

 

Or the ones with rotating chamber rounds.

 

And finally a rust tank with no turret function when vehicles have had time to develop and we already have a meaty portion.

[Katana67 2907]

What do you mean? That all AK's should be 7.62x39 or 5.56x45? WHY?

What is so wrong with providing proper 5.45x39 caliber, that would most importantly completely disconnect Warsaw pact weapons from NATO ones?

How can you properly tweak NATO weapon usage without hampering AK's, if they are in same caliber?

 

Is it not killing variety, which you seem to love some much, if AK's are only in 7.62 and 5.56?

What would be the difference between AKM and member of AK74 family in the same caliber?

 

I do get that you support Devs in almost anything they do, but this just seems unreasonable.

And yes, I'm fully aware that we had this discussion over and over again. I just could not resist...

 

I don't support the developers in everything they do. The two years I've spent critiquing DayZ are a testament to that. I frequently disagree with the choices made by the developers. Hence why I've advocated for the re-appropriation of the AK-74M into the AK-101 and for the de-amalgamation of 7.62x51. It's why I've critiqued Chris Torchia's reasoning for doing things multiple times. And why I disagree with Rocket's statements regarding cross-server loot trades.

 

I'm not saying they should be anything, I'm saying 5.45x39 is not needed to balance ammunition rarity. At a bare, mathematical minimum, to show a discrepancy between the rarity of two rounds (and therefore make certain assault rifles rare and others common) we only need two data points to show a difference. We already have those data points, in 7.62x39 and 5.56x45.

 

And, again, a point that people seem to be missing... over... and over... and over again. So, I'll put it in a form that's unmissable.

 

I WANT 5.45x39 IN DAYZ, I JUST DO NOT VIEW IT AS A NECESSITY FOR ANYTHING (I.E. ADDING A GIVEN WEAPON OR TO BALANCE THE RARITY OF ASSAULT RIFLE AMMUNITION)

 

And you ask me what the difference between an AK in a different caliber would be? Nothing. There would be no difference as far as DayZ is concerned, both aesthetically and performance-wise. Hence why I don't view 5.45x39 in particular as a necessity. Because we've already got two rounds with which to chamber AKs.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Katana67

[svisketyggeren 662]

The "end game" concept is for themeparks...real men play sandbox and dont need a end game carrot to be motivated.

[Deathlove 2286]

The "end game" concept is for themeparks...real men play sandbox and dont need a end game carrot to be motivated.

Now all we need is that run down theme park..... XD

 

[hombrecz 832]

And you ask me what the difference between an AK in a different caliber would be? Nothing. 

 

That's an interesting though. One that I find just wrong, if it was really the case in game.

Hell, there was a distinctive difference between AK74 and AKM, when talking about dayz mod.

 

Plus again, you omitted the fact, that 5.45 would be good from gameplay perspective to disconnect warsaw pact weapons from those of NATO origin, when talking about ammo rarity and even damage.

 

But ok, we simply will never agree on that point. I do not consider anything labeled as "bare minimum" as something optimal or sufficient or something that should be accepted without objections.

[Katana67 2907]

Hell, there was a distinctive difference between AK74 and AKM, when talking about dayz mod.

 

Plus again, you omitted the fact, that 5.45 would be good from gameplay perspective to disconnect warsaw pact weapons from those of NATO origin, when talking about ammo rarity and even damage.

 

But ok, we simply will never agree on that point. I do not consider anything labeled as "bare minimum" as something optimal or sufficient or something that should be accepted without objections.

 

1. Yes, which didn't have distinct ammunition types (having combined magazines), were resources re-used from a previous game (ARMA II), and we've already got AK-74 and AKM analogs in DayZ (see the AK-101 and AKM).

 

2. I didn't omit that, because it's both not the case (as the simple act of differentiating NATO from Warsaw Pact isn't something that has anything to do with how we actually play the game)... and more importantly, it can already be done with 7.62x39 and 5.56x45 anyhow.

 

I never said anything about it being optimal. But the mathematical fact remains, that in order to demonstrate a discrepancy between something (i.e. ammunition rarity), all that is needed are two data points. Not one. Two. Anything else, is just there to add variety/depth/granularity/etc. Which is certainly worthwhile, but it is not a necessity as many have claimed and continue to claim.

[Chaingunfighter 917]

Plus again, you omitted the fact, that 5.45 would be good from gameplay perspective to disconnect warsaw pact weapons from those of NATO origin, when talking about ammo rarity and even damage.

 

Wouldn't 7.62x39mm already do the exact same thing? And separating warsaw pact and western weapons doesn't have any actual effect on how the game is played in itself.

 

Most people, including me, want 5.45x39mm. It's just ridiculous that people act as if it's some absolute necessity when it really isn't. It's the same as the "You're either with us, or against us" mentality - both side A and side B want 5.45x39mm, but side B disagrees with the specific arguments of side A, so side A acts as if side B doesn't want what they have, at all.

It's sort of like quite a few feminists on the internet, I'm fully in support of equal rights among humans without discrimination for things that people have no control over, but I don't like identifying as a "feminist" when it (supposedly) implies equality among all. Yet if you dare call yourself anything but one, and you must hate all women, and advocate for rape (and you're probably a rapist yourself.)

Unrelated belief analogies aside, it's just the whole fact that people seem to think there is an inherent need for 5.45x39mm to be in the game. I disagree with the "necessity" part, not the "want" part.

[gibonez 3633]

 

 

Most people, including me, want 5.45x39mm. It's just ridiculous that people act as if it's some absolute necessity when it really isn't.

 

 

It is not so much that it is absolutely necessary it is that it should have taken precedent over 5.56 nato, 7.62x51,and countless other western calibers that make far less sense.

Eastern Setting thus Eastern Calibers would make sense no ?

 

BTW guys don't play vanilla Stalker.

Play this.

[hellcat420 212]

It is not so much that it is absolutely necessary it is that it should have taken precedent over 5.56 nato, 7.62x51,and countless other western calibers that make far less sense.

Eastern Setting thus Eastern Calibers would make sense no ?

 

BTW guys don't play vanilla Stalker.

Play this.

eastern weapons suck

[Chaingunfighter 917]

It is not so much that it is absolutely necessary it is that it should have taken precedent over 5.56 nato, 7.62x51,and countless other western calibers that make far less sense.

Eastern Setting thus Eastern Calibers would make sense no ?

 

BTW guys don't play vanilla Stalker.

Play this.

 

 

That's pretty much the same argument though; the argument that it should've been in because it's "more realistic than something else" is really saying the exact same thing as "it's more necessary than something else already in game".

Yes, it would make sense, in an eastern setting, but I think you know that the realism argument on it's own doesn't stand well, at least with me.

 

 

 

Also, I can't seem to find a weapon's list for the Misery modification, but most resources I've found show that it still has most of Clear Sky/Call of Pripyat's regular weapons, including (rather prominently), the Desert Eagle.

[Katana67 2907]

 

BTW guys don't play vanilla Stalker.

Play this.

 

 

All of the same weapons in vanilla STALKER (including the Gauss Rifle), just with more attachments available to them. Plus you've got the good ol' UMP-45, FAMAS, and XM8.

 

And last I checked, the FAL couldn't mount a SUSAT... nor could a SIG 550...

 

 

[gibonez 3633]

I never said Misery was realistic.

 

I was just suggested it for those who are about to or will play stalker.

 

It is a much harder experience and has lots of extra features. I really don't know how realistic it is or not Its simply just a really well and put together mod.

[igor-vk 909]

Too bad we will never see SIG 550 in dayz. It was my favorite in CoP.

Off topic: Way to Pripyat mod had best weapon textures.

[Katana67 2907]

It is a much harder experience and has lots of extra features. I really don't know how realistic it is or not Its simply just a really well and put together mod.

 

But you measure the worth of DayZ by the degree to which it adheres to "realism." If it doesn't, you uncompromisingly decry it as streamlined/casual, curse the developers for somehow betraying you, and then push vitriol-laced tirades at the mere mention of something included which isn't typical of a former Soviet state.

 

So, if STALKER (including this mod) is neither realistic in its depiction of an apocalypse, nor realistic in its depiction of a post-Soviet state, nor realistic in its depiction of weapons, then how... by your continuously stated (so don't try and say that you don't believe in them) standards... can it ever be good/acceptable?

 

Again, it's a contradiction.

Edited August 30, 2014 by Katana67

[hombrecz 832]

1. Yes, which didn't have distinct ammunition types (having combined magazines), were resources re-used from a previous game (ARMA II), and we've already got AK-74 and AKM analogs in DayZ (see the AK-101 and AKM).

 

2. I didn't omit that, because it's both not the case (as the simple act of differentiating NATO from Warsaw Pact isn't something that has anything to do with how we actually play the game)... and more importantly, it can already be done with 7.62x39 and 5.56x45 anyhow.

 

I never said anything about it being optimal. But the mathematical fact remains, that in order to demonstrate a discrepancy between something (i.e. ammunition rarity), all that is needed are two data points. Not one. Two. Anything else, is just there to add variety/depth/granularity/etc. Which is certainly worthwhile, but it is not a necessity as many have claimed and continue to claim.

 

1. Having export AK101 (5.56) is simply not the same as having most common AK74/M in (5.45). 

They should not have the exact same damage nor recoil or penetration. Not if gunplay should has to have any depth. And yes, "realitards" hate having only export version in 5.56 as it does not make much sense. Also see point 2.

 

2. How can you make AK101 to have more common ammo than other 5.56 NATO rifles? Also damage is based mostly on caliber right? Again, bye bye differentiation.

 

As for the rest, what would make most sense would be to have Warsaw pact 7.62x54R and 5.45x39  vs NATO  7.62x51  and 5.56x45.

So not 1 caliber, not 2, but 4 would be ideal to properly picture both reality and proper ammo rarity (NATO calibers more rare anyone?) as well as their ballistic properties.

Providing guns in their more rare calibers, instead of the most common and widespread one, seems as wrong decision to me. That's just how I see it.

 

 

Wouldn't 7.62x39mm already do the exact same thing? And separating warsaw pact and western weapons doesn't have any actual effect on how the game is played in itself.

 

Nope, 7.62x39 is just ONE of the commonly used calibers in WP weapons. 

And again no, separating WP and NATO weapons does have effect on the game and it is called ammunition rarity. Plus different calibers should have different attributes.

Logicaly, it should be easier to find ammo for WP weapon, since the game is in the country that has prevalent WP armament.

But I guess you might not care about anything like setting anyway, so lets mash every weapon there is into the game and to make it more fun, let's not chamber them in their most common calibers. That has to provide the best possible gameplay ever.

 

Will not comment on your feminism analogy, since that is totaly out of place.

 

Btw if Devs introduced 9×18mm, it would not mean only Makarov but some 10 other pistols (Cz 82, Fort 12 etc) of eastern origin.

Plus that round could mean Skorpion vz 65, PM 63 RAK, PP-19 Bizon and several other eastern SMG's. Although Skorpion should probably be in 7.65×17mm Browning SR (.32 ACP) so having it's 9x18mm version would be compromise as well.

[BeefBacon 1185]

Eh, I never had much fun with Misery. All of my money went into buying more rounds. I couldn't get artifacts because I'd burn to death or get poisoned before I got near them. I couldn't progress the story because Controllers and Poltergeists could snipe me from across the map. Think I heard that they got nerfed, though, so I might give it another go. Vanilla was way too easy, though. I guess it's hard to strike a playable middle ground.

 

I'm not sure why people want ammo to be super rare. That seems like a poorly thought-out solution to a prevalent issue.

 

Ammo should spawn just as it does now, perhaps even more commonly, but in smaller numbers. I shouldn't be finding 20-round boxes. I should be picking up 1 - 10 rounds at a time. No more than that. If I find a gun I want to be able to use it almost straight away, but only have a few rounds, I don't want to spend 5 hours searching only to stumble across a single crate of 500 rounds. .22 ammo and shotgun shells should be more common than other ammo types, followed closely by 9mm and .380. Other ammo types should spawn relatively commonly but in extremely small numbers - like 1- 5 rounds at a time.

[gibonez 3633]

But you measure the worth of DayZ by the degree to which it adheres to "realism." If it doesn't, you uncompromisingly decry it as streamlined/casual, curse the developers for somehow betraying you, and then push vitriol-laced tirades at the mere mention of something included which isn't typical of a former Soviet state.

 

So, if STALKER (including this mod) is neither realistic in its depiction of an apocalypse, nor realistic in its depiction of a post-Soviet state, nor realistic in its depiction of weapons, then how... by your continuously stated (so don't try and say that you don't believe in them) standards... can it ever be good/acceptable?

 

Again, it's a contradiction.

 

 

Stalker to the best of my knowledge has never been known for realism. The franchise was always known for creating a very unique and immersive setting and boy does it do that.

 

Dayz however rides on the coat tails of Arma 2 and more importantly is a BI game a developer known for realism. So you can understand why some would come to expect that out of dayz.

 

 

Eh, I never had much fun with Misery. All of my money went into buying more rounds. I couldn't get artifacts because I'd burn to death or get poisoned before I got near them. I couldn't progress the story because Controllers and Poltergeists could snipe me from across the map. Think I heard that they got nerfed, though, so I might give it another go. Vanilla was way too easy, though. I guess it's hard to strike a playable middle ground.

 

I'm not sure why people want ammo to be super rare. That seems like a poorly thought-out solution to a prevalent issue.

 

Ammo should spawn just as it does now, perhaps even more commonly, but in smaller numbers. I shouldn't be finding 20-round boxes. I should be picking up 1 - 10 rounds at a time. No more than that. If I find a gun I want to be able to use it almost straight away, but only have a few rounds, I don't want to spend 5 hours searching only to stumble across a single crate of 500 rounds. .22 ammo and shotgun shells should be more common than other ammo types, followed closely by 9mm and .380. Other ammo types should spawn relatively commonly but in extremely small numbers - like 1- 5 rounds at a time.

 

Played it quite recently so to be honest I can't tell you if the controllers were nerfed or not.

 

The game was hard but I did manage to beat it. Misery did get a huge update after I beat it though so you might want to check it out.