Mosin-Nagant "Obrez" Modification? [Torchia Tweet]

[hotcakes 348]

I think you guys are delving too far into realism again.

 

lel

 

All ammunition in this game does the same damage regardless of barrel length. Don't want to send the wrong message to new shooters, because that's wrong. 

[-Gews- 7443]

So therefore yes it would be horribly inaccurate? I assumed this was an easy yes or no but seems like no one knows? Doesn't this gun exist? you'd think like a shotgun at anything over 100 meters (made up range off the top of my head) it would be tough to aim....

 

 

The barrel has been shown and it is approximately 27.5 cm long. The Mosin has a twist of 240mm. So around 158,000 rpm. Should be stable. However the sights have been sawn off.

 

T = ((2067/2800)^(1/6))*.311*sqrt((30*148)/(2.0*.311^3*4.12(1+4.12^2))) = 9.3

 

Now if it had been something like this...

 

[hotcakes 348]

Does anyone know if the Obrez still takes attachments? Wondering if the clamp-on compensator works. 

[JPWiser 251]

 

The barrel has been shown and it is approximately 27.5 cm long. The Mosin has a twist of 240mm. So around 158,000 rpm. Should be stable. However the sights have been sawn off.

 

T = ((2067/2800)^(1/6))*.311*sqrt((30*148)/(2.0*.311^3*4.12(1+4.12^2))) = 9.3

 

Now if it had been something like this...

 

Even though i will basically have to take your word for it,

 

That is some lulz right there hahaha

 

Those are some serious hoodlums....

[trev186 389]

Does anyone know if the Obrez still takes attachments? Wondering if the clamp-on compensator works. 

Bayonet ! lol

[Bororm 1156]

Gotta admit I'm slightly disappointed in the model.  I mean it really looks like they just chopped the model, which while I guess that's what you're supposedly doing with just a hacksaw it would have been nice to make it a little more detailed/distinct.

[alldaypk 63]

Gotta admit I'm slightly disappointed in the model.  I mean it really looks like they just chopped the model, which while I guess that's what you're supposedly doing with just a hacksaw it would have been nice to make it a little more detailed/distinct.

 

I agree, splintered wood, tooling marks on barrel etc.

[pilgrim* 3514]

Surprised no one's mentioned damage yet... "obrez" presents some interesting questions. I did some research and made some estimates of muzzle velocity.

..//..

 

Particularly for Gews

= also anyone else who wants to research = there is an archive of all kinds of ballistics and other firearm/projectile/trajectory information at the

Norman Yarvin Usenet Archives (but this is raw collected information and is a basis for research, if anyone is really interested in putting in the time, the info is there and the leads from there)

 

http://yarchive.net/gun/ammo/

 

I came across a suggestion:

 

<< F W Mann’s “The bullet’s flight…” gives a good explanation of why accuracy can be so poor with some very short barrelled guns. Even assuming that the barel is cut off square to the bore axis, and the crown is perfect (the higher gas pressure with decreasing barrel length make this increasingly critical)

From page 167 in Mann, he shows bullets fired from very short barrelled rifles, due to the gas pressure behind the bullet and the inertia forces due to its very rapid acceleration, the bullet mushrooms as it emerges from the muzzle. >>

 

I don't have the weight to follow that up (ok, I back off and leave it to the phsyicians)

 

Found this and some interesting general things about 'obrez', and some images, here:

 

http://www.forgottenweapons.com/the-obrez-and-its-cousins/

 

I see there :

 

<< These are brutal weapons, with a powerful connotations in Russian culture. Romantic represenation of Civil War period banditry and local resistance always includes these as the weapon of choice: “the black horse and steel obrez” even figures in one of the widely known and loved Cossack songs. >>

 

also a note that "obrez" can mean any weapon "sawn-off"

 

and

 

<< The abundance of army-issued rifles in revolutionary Russia is the reason behind the ovewhelming prevalence of sawn-off rifles over sawn-off shotguns. >>

 

but anyone can find this stuff just by looking around the web, instead of spouting off yards of  .. "I imagine, so it must be true" (hey, I dont object to people fantasizing at all, as long as they don't pretend it's something else, I keep seeing really silly claims about history.. yza know ?)

 

There are obrez (Mozin) in "The Military-Historical Museum of Artillery, Engineer and Signal Corps" of Saint-Petersburg, and the usual pic of a cut down Mosin (wikipedia) comes from there. Also the Belgian War Museum has different types of cut down rifles.. Belgium has a long and odd relationship with various forms of warfare, it seems to me (I lived in Brussels for a time, the museum is interesting, and at Saint-Petersburg [Russians call the town just 'Petersburg' now] the museum is a kind of specialised offshoot of the Hermitage.. an immense huge gigantic repository).

 

Always a pleasure to hear Gews, because he talks sense and has an opinion worth listening to.

= more so than me in any case.

 

 

xx

Edited August 13, 2014 by pilgrim

[slippery gypsy 107]

sawn offs were used to clear trenches by anzacs in WW1 very rarely was it a shotgun because the only shotguns available were personally supplied from boer war veterans that knew about trench warfare so the only other option was the issued .303 enfield 

sawn off .22s are commonly used to shoot snakes and rabbits 

ive said it before a firearm is a TOOL to be modified to suit your purpose using ballistics as an argument holds not grounds because it would be a safe bet anyone who has ever been around weapons knows cutting them down affects accuracy so with that known the weapon is not being cut down just for the cool factor it is being modified for an intended purpose 

just because you think it is not a good idea doesnt change the fact that cutting barrels and stocks has been common practice for almost as long as rifles have been around 

if you dont like it dont use it simple 

i do appreciate people like gews and pilgrim  that put in more effort than other with the mathematics that i dont comprehend 

 

[rybec 339]

 just for the cool factor it is being modified for an intended purpose 

 

I bet you like

better than

you sicko.

[Chaingunfighter 917]

I agree, splintered wood, tooling marks on barrel etc.

Just like the Sawed-Off IZH-43, it actually does have saw marks on the barrel and wood.

 

 

Fairly hard to see, but it indeed does.

[spensah 8]

when the twist rate was designed for the 20 inch + barrel.

Twist rate is determined by bullet length (in effect), not barrel length.

Inb4 gibonez says mall ninja.

[slippery gypsy 107]

I bet you like

better than

you sicko.

never timber stocks FTW

[-Gews- 7443]

^very interesting stuff, pilgrim :thumbsup:

[alldaypk 63]

Just like the Sawed-Off IZH-43, it actually does have saw marks on the barrel and wood.

 

 

Fairly hard to see, but it indeed does.

 

I meant on the barrel, as if your hacksaw slipped and scraped the top side, or the wood chipped and splintered because the hacksaw wasn't the sharpest it's ever been.

[Chaingunfighter 917]

I meant on the barrel, as if your hacksaw slipped and scraped the top side, or the wood chipped and splintered because the hacksaw wasn't the sharpest it's ever been.

Ah, I see, but the problem is that it would look really odd if the same mistakes were present on every model, since they're probably going to work with the same one. The better thing is to just give it some basic roughness, but not anything too specific.

[alldaypk 63]

Ah, I see, but the problem is that it would look really odd if the same mistakes were present on every model, since they're probably going to work with the same one. The better thing is to just give it some basic roughness, but not anything too specific.

 

Well it doesn't have to be so realistic as to have different mistakes on each gun, but my main point was to have roughness; a rushed cut that wasn't perfect.

[hotcakes 348]

Looks like the Longhorn is better than the Obrez for pretend sniping.

 

turn rate

longhorn > obrez

accuracy

longhorn (7 MOA) > obrez (10 MOA)

magazine capacity

obrez > longhorn

 

And the Longhorn has a scope. You can generally quickscope up to 200m.

[pilgrim* 3514]

..//..

I do appreciate people like gews and pilgrim  that put in more effort than other with the mathematics that i dont comprehend

 

 

^very interesting stuff, pilgrim :thumbsup:

 

I research and try to discover and understand, but Gews is the expert. reading his posts (and others) starts my interest.. I see what I can find out.

 

Thanks

 

eg: I found a set of plastic miniatures of Cossacks - not great quality, and one of the 6 riders has an obrezin..  so it's evidence that obrezins are in the popular imagination like indians with tomahawks - it's part of the Cossack mythology from the time many were with the White Russians fighting the Communists .. [which leads down in part to the problems in the Ukraine today] ..  but I think for the Cossacks an obrezin would make a great horse gun, like a horse pistol, except easier to reload it.. short range, big punch, and makes a hell of a bang, which I imagine cossacks would like.

 

          

 

If you check the web you may find memories and accounts by people from the Ukraine whose grandparents still have these things in the house from the good/bad old days. They were a tough people and still are.

Edited August 14, 2014 by pilgrim

[-Gews- 7443]

You think we will have a sawn-off Blaser? (such a gun was described in the files a ways back) Will we be able to saw other bolt-actions in half? Or the 10/22? Think of the hackshaw shenanigans.

 

 

[Chaingunfighter 917]

Well it doesn't have to be so realistic as to have different mistakes on each gun, but my main point was to have roughness; a rushed cut that wasn't perfect.

It doesn't really look perfect to me, it just looks like two simple straight down cuts were done, and there is the appropriate roughness where it happened. Some Obrez Mosin's have a lot more time spent into their creation, so they can be more effective.

 

What I was saying is that obvious mistakes or blemishes are usually a bad thing to have when you're only using one texture and model, because it implies EVERYONE made the same mistake. Subtle roughness is much better.

I'm not saying it's a huge deal, because in all honesty it isn't, but consistency is key.

[Katana67 2907]

Should just let us have a SBR option for every weapon and call it a day.

[slippery gypsy 107]

all i ever wanted was the .22 sporter to be cut down ...semi auto with 30 down the spout bad ass imo

[hombrecz 832]

Scubaman made himself pretty clear, that the do not want to redo every model often.

I still hope that further down the road, we will be able to duct tape flashlight on every rifle.

 

It would enrich gameplay in my opinion and once new renderer is in, nightplay with flashlight might be a lot better than now.

[Chaingunfighter 917]

Scubaman made himself pretty clear, that the do not want to redo every model often.

I still hope that further down the road, we will be able to duct tape flashlight on every rifle.

 

It would enrich gameplay in my opinion and once new renderer is in, nightplay with flashlight might be a lot better than now.

Meh, I don't think it would do a whole lot, honestly.

 

I mean, the fact that the devs would have to apply it to every model would definitely get annoying, even with just the amount of firearms we have now.

I'm not superbly opposed to the idea, but you also have to consider that letting people just duct tape attachments would render the requirement of looking for rails moot. The flashlight isn't a huge advantage, but if you want to tape a flashlight then there's nothing really stopping you from taping a PEQ box, or a foregrip on.

 

I say just leave it to rails. If the gun comes with rails, you're set, if you can find rails, you're set, if you can't find rails or the gun doesn't support them, you'd better find a different weapon for nighttime. It would really entice people to change up their playstyles.

 

It'd also make unique attachments like NVG scopes or even hyper-rare thermal scopes more versatile.