Mosin-Nagant "Obrez" Modification? [Torchia Tweet]

[hombrecz 832]

They did say, that the events of ARMA II factor in to Chernarus plus.

 

Fair enough, still it was not very detailed info nor was it communicated in a proper way (not everybody follows every single tweet or FB post or lost Reddit post).

 

Oh well, I think i just freaked out a little, when Chaingunfighter mentioned Vietnam.

Edited August 12, 2014 by Hombre

[Chaingunfighter 917]

Devs haven't confirmed that Arma 2 lore = DayZ lore. They did not say in what year this is happening, neither if it is in the same Armaverse so to speak. In that regard your comment is moot and the whole CHDKZ vs government might not apply at all. 

 

As for Vietnam, I was trying to point out that it was very specific case, when talking about weapons. One that could hardly be used as a model for East European conflict happening tens of years later.  

Yes, that was one example, but my whole point was just that it's not illogical to suggest that guerrilla fighters are using more than just old AK rifles.

 

I mean, even in the places with the lowest variety, you still see hundreds of different AK variants, and old G3s, and FN FALs, and M16s, and.... the list goes on.

It just doesn't happen anymore that conflicts are strictly regulated to weapons from the environment that the conflict is taking place in. Because of globalization, you'd be hard pressed to find wars in the future that AREN'T using some "western", "high-tech" stuff.

 

 

Vietnam is also a perfectly fair example, because it's the exact same situation that happens in conflicts everywhere; Africa, Asia, Eastern Europe, South America, you name it. There's the main provisional government, and loyalist fighters, and then there's the insurgent and revolutionary forces, who may be backed up by other foreign armies. Typically, one side receives arms and support from Russia (or has tons of leftovers from a time that they did), and the opposite force is backed up by NATO.

The huge variety of stuff in Vietnam is definitely unique, but that was in part due to World War II, the Korean War, and the French-Indochina war, which had a heavy effect on the future in the South Pacific. Chernarus has a history rife with conflict, as far as we know they were occupied during WW2, had a civil war sometime post-WW2, and then held another one in 2009. And we know that Chernarus used to be a part of the Soviet Union, who would absolutely back them up.

Edited August 11, 2014 by Chaingunfighter

[spensah 8]

But the fs won't have these sweet muzzle velocities that the Varmint achieves with its thick long barrel.

http://puu.sh/adx9b/642ced6be1.png

Doesn't say varmint anywhere :P But either way, you're not likely to see much more velocity from 3.5" of extra barrel with the case capacity of .223, unless you're making some *very* specific handloads

[hells high 676]

I hope some of the work they are doing on the dexterity system involves muzzle contact in some way. Despite what some say about RO2, that system is very well done in that game.

 

I'd like someone trying to clear a house with a full size Mosin try to swing it through a door sideways, triggering either the weapon to be lowered or lifted to get it through the door. With practice and technique clearing a building with a larger weapon should be possible, and not made easier for the sake of "balancing" with shorter weapons. Learning the systems and nuances of a system like that would be rewarding imo.

Edited August 12, 2014 by Hells High

[pilgrim* 3514]

Obrez were cut down for ease of concealment, used by criminals and by resistance fighters in the soviet union countries

The reason rifles were cut down instead of shotguns, is that rifles were extremely common in those countries

 

In DayZ, the longhorn closely fills the role of an obrez

and is much more accurate, of course

Edited August 12, 2014 by pilgrim

[Zoring 25]

Longhorn also only has one shot that you have to manually reload. Cut down Mosin would be cool just to have a multiple shot, full powered rifle cartridge handgun. Plus it looks cool, and would involve less work to implement than building a new gun from scratch.

[pilgrim* 3514]

Longhorn also only has one shot that you have to manually reload. Cut down Mosin would be cool just to have a multiple shot, full powered rifle cartridge handgun. Plus it looks cool, and would involve less work to implement than building a new gun from scratch.

 

"building from scratch" you mean the games designers, I guess

 

Obrez is only designed to be hidden, is my point.. its a crap modification, in real life it's made by people who need it short

Yes, obrez would have the same use as sawnoff shotgun, for short distances, except that the shotgun has scatter.

So with obrez, you know everyone would be mad as shit not being able to hit anything over 20m away ?

Or completely missing at close range ? And it makes a lot of noise.

 

But if you want to saw down a Mosin, I think perhaps you should be allowed to ruin a good gun if you want to.

Edited August 13, 2014 by pilgrim

[Chaingunfighter 917]

Obrez were cut down for ease of concealment, used by criminals and by resistance fighters in the soviet union countries

The reason rifles were cut down instead of shotguns, is that rifles were extremely common in those countries

 

In DayZ, the longhorn closely fills the role of an obrez

and is much more accurate, of course

The IZH-43 is incredibly common. Granted not as common as the Mosin in some areas, but Sawed-Off IZH-43s are fairly commonplace.

[pilgrim* 3514]

The IZH-43 is incredibly common. Granted not as common as the Mosin in some areas, but Sawed-Off IZH-43s are fairly commonplace.

 

The IZH-43 is already in the game. You can saw it short with a hacksaw.

[Chaingunfighter 917]

The IZH-43 is already in the game. You can saw it short with a hacksaw.

I know, you just said "People cut them down, rather than shotguns", and my whole point was that shotguns are a commonplace in Russia. The Obrez wasn't really common at all, it was just very recognizable.

[pilgrim* 3514]

I know, you just said "People cut them down, rather than shotguns", and my whole point was that shotguns are a commonplace in Russia. The Obrez wasn't really common at all, it was just very recognizable.

 

Obrez were cut down for ease of concealment, used by criminals and by resistance fighters in the soviet union countries

The reason rifles were cut down instead of shotguns, is that rifles were extremely common in those countries

 

and a common crap old rifle is a hell of a lot cheaper than a decent shotgun

 

if you know different, please quote your statistics, court statistics, crime rates, regional and government studies for the "some areas" where sawnoffs are common but "not as common as the Mosin" and point out the other areas where the sawn off IZH-43 is "incredibly" common.

And as well as regions, please quote dates and the police summaries etc, to back your detailed information on criminal activities with clandestine modified weapons, from year to year in different ex-soviet union countries. Lets have statistics, numbers.

 

Do more criminals use obrez than revolvers or automatics, etc ? has this always been the case, is it a regional, or national trend ?  ..

you obviously  know these things: you either have a grip on the subject or you're just making it up as you type, for the sake of talk

 

I am not an expert, I asked a friend about "obrezani" and simply checked a number of sources, I had some fun.. I'm not trying to prove how cool I am at all.. if anyone can talk historical sense without launching into undefended unsupported fantasies, I'll be interested to listen whenever I pass by that thread

 

now we hear that "the obrez wasn't really common at all" .. ok so we live and learn.. what is the percentage of sawnoff shotguns to obrez detected in criminal activites in just one Soviet State since 1945 .. do tell, or let's go back to obrez during the Civil War ? Do the research and give us the figures. You often talk as if you have knowledge, but it sounds hollow.

Edited August 12, 2014 by pilgrim

[Katana67 2907]

if you know different, please quote your statistics, court statistics, crime rates, regional and government studies for the "some areas" where sawnoffs are common but "not as common as the Mosin" and point out the other areas where the sawn off IZH-43 is "incredibly" common.

And as well as regions, please quote dates and the police summaries etc, to back your detailed information on criminal activities with clandestine modified weapons, from year to year in different ex-soviet union countries. Lets have statistics, numbers.

 

Given the ubiquity of "sawn-off" shotguns abroad (not just in Russia, even though I recognize that's what was being asserted) I would venture a guess and say that sawn-off shotguns (of all varieties) are more common overall.

 

The obrez is a pretty region/country-specific modification. It requires a Mosin-Nagant to accomplish, one type of weapon. Whereas sawn-off shotguns are just that... shotguns, it's not based around a specific weapon platform... only an archetype.

 

Either way, whatever is more "common" doesn't really have any relevance in terms of DayZ.

 

That and I've seen folks say the opposite, that Eastern Bloc lands are completely bereft of "Western" weapons. Or that assault rifles are hyper-rare. Without posting a single statistic.

 

But again, real-world circumstance =/= DayZ circumstance.

Edited August 12, 2014 by Katana67

[pilgrim* 3514]

Given the ubiquity of "sawn-off" shotguns abroad (not just in Russia, even though I recognize that's what was being asserted) I would venture a guess and say that sawn-off shotguns (of all varieties) are more common overall.

..//..

 

as long as you're guessing .. that's fine with me

[Chaingunfighter 917]

as long as you're guessing .. that's fine with me

 

Obrez were cut down for ease of concealment, used by criminals and by resistance fighters in the soviet union countries

The reason rifles were cut down instead of shotguns, is that rifles were extremely common in those countries

 

and a common crap old rifle is a hell of a lot cheaper than a decent shotgun

 

if you know different, please quote your statistics, court statistics, crime rates, regional and government studies for the "some areas" where sawnoffs are common but "not as common as the Mosin" and point out the other areas where the sawn off IZH-43 is "incredibly" common.

And as well as regions, please quote dates and the police summaries etc, to back your detailed information on criminal activities with clandestine modified weapons, from year to year in different ex-soviet union countries. Lets have statistics, numbers.

 

Do more criminals use obrez than revolvers or automatics, etc ? has this always been the case, is it a regional, or national trend ?  ..

you obviously  know these things: you either have a grip on the subject or you're just making it up as you type, for the sake of talk

 

I am not an expert, I asked a friend about "obrezani" and simply checked a number of sources, I had some fun.. I'm not trying to prove how cool I am at all.. if anyone can talk historical sense without launching into undefended unsupported fantasies, I'll be interested to listen whenever I pass by that thread

 

now we hear that "the obrez wasn't really common at all" .. ok so we live and learn.. what is the percentage of sawnoff shotguns to obrez detected in criminal activites in just one Soviet State since 1945 .. do tell. Do the research and give us the figures. You often talk as if you have knowledge, but it sounds hollow.

Stop assuming that I'm trying to be "The expert" or "cool" simply because I make a statement.

 

 

While I will admit that I cannot explicitly prove that the Mosin-Nagant Obrez is less common than the sawed-off Shotgun everywhere, it's fairly conjectural that the Obrez is inefficient in almost every way to the standard counterpart, save for being concealable, whereas a sawed-off shotgun has concealed benefits in addition to a wider spread which may be useful in a close environment. That's also forgetting that any shotgun can be sawed-off whereas the Mosin-Nagant is just one rifle across a few different variants.

 

Point to point it's nigh impossible to prove that the either the Mosin or IZH-43 are more common because most of them tend not to be registered and are spread out over a very large area. It's just common knowledge that in places where guns are heavily regulated that people will make do with whatever they can, and Eastern Bloc countries often restrict firearm ownership to limited areas, so unregulated guns, a lot of which are shotguns, take a front seat.

 

 

To argue that a statement that "the IZH-43 is common in Eastern Bloc countries" is an "unsupported" and "undefended fantasy" is simply moronic.

Edited August 12, 2014 by Chaingunfighter

[pilgrim* 3514]

Stop assuming that I'm trying to be "The expert" or "cool" simply because I make a statement.

 

 

While I will admit that I cannot explicitly prove that the Mosin-Nagant Obrez is less common than the sawed-off Shotgun everywhere, it's fairly conjectural that the Obrez is inefficient in almost every way to the standard counterpart, save for being concealable, whereas a sawed-off shotgun has concealed benefits in addition to a wider spread which may be useful in a close environment. That's also forgetting that any shotgun can be sawed-off whereas the Mosin-Nagant is just one rifle across a few different variants.

 

Point to point it's nigh impossible to prove that the either the Mosin or IZH-43 are more common because most of them tend not to be registered and are spread out over a very large area. It's just common knowledge that in places where guns are heavily regulated that people will make do with whatever they can, and Eastern Bloc countries often restrict firearm ownership to limited areas, so unregulated guns, a lot of which are shotguns, take a front seat.

 

 

To argue that a statement that "the IZH-43 is common in Eastern Bloc countries" is an "unsupported" and "undefended fantasy" is simply moronic.

 

as long as you're guessing .. that's fine with me

 

Obrez were cut down for ease of concealment, used by criminals and by resistance fighters in the soviet union countries

The reason rifles were cut down instead of shotguns, is that rifles were extremely common in those countries

Edited August 12, 2014 by pilgrim

[ZomboWTF 527]

*snip*

 

basically, every weapon that does not have a barrel-magazine (like for example a pump action shotgun or similar) can be cut down and theoretically used,

 

the only thing is: can you handle the recoil, or will the gun kick in your face and knock you the fuck out?

 

SKS would be very viable cut down, just like the shotgun (which is available allready) the mosin, even the Sporter

however, i thinkthe mosin, due to its low rate of fire and extreme recoil, would be less suited than say the SKS or the Sporter

[slippery gypsy 107]

sawn off .22 would be most common of all ... 

[JPWiser 251]

Excuse my lack of gun knowledge but wouldnt hacking a Mosin in half make it horribly inaccurate?

[rybec 339]

Excuse my lack of gun knowledge but wouldnt hacking a Mosin in half make it horribly inaccurate?

Shortening it wouldn't all of the sudden make it inaccurate. If you're shooting 300m with a mosin and try the same with an Obrez, it's going to be fairly easy to see I'm sure. It's still a rifle cartridge being fired out of a rifled barrel. You're just giving it less rifling to spin from and less of a barrel for the gas to propel it through.

[JPWiser 251]

Shortening it wouldn't all of the sudden make it inaccurate. If you're shooting 300m with a mosin and try the same with an Obrez, it's going to be fairly easy to see I'm sure. It's still a rifle cartridge being fired out of a rifled barrel. You're just giving it less rifling to spin from and less of a barrel for the gas to propel it through.

But in a nutshell wouldn't less spin mean drastic accuracy loss after a certain range?

[gibonez 3633]

But in a nutshell wouldn't less spin mean drastic accuracy loss after a certain range?

 

I highly doubt the bullet would stabilize when shot out of a 6 inch barrel when the twist rate was designed for the 20 inch + barrel.

 

If I had to guess the bullet would be keyholing all over.

[-Gews- 7443]

Surprised no one's mentioned damage yet... "obrez" presents some interesting questions. I did some research and made some estimates of muzzle velocity.

 

Here's an obrez with about the same barrel length as the Contender (Longhorn). This is much longer than usual for obrez, just for comparison. At this length, muzzle energy is still higher than the SKS.

 

 

Here's one with a more typical barrel length. Now muzzle energy is between the SKS and the M4A1.

 

 

Here's one with a slightly shorter barrel. Now muzzle energy is below both the SKS and the M4A1.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

SKS is equally or much more powerful than obrez - but SKS doesn't kill in one shot. So neither should the weaker obrez, no? And here is another problem, pistols and rifles have inconsistent damage compared to each other.

 

Obrez should be much more powerful than certain pistols - but it must also be much weaker than certain rifles. And you can't have that with the current damages where a .45 ACP or .357 is almost the same power as an SKS, or more powerful than an M4A1.

 

 

 

For example obrez with velocity of 600 m/s would be (600/860) = 70% as powerful as Mosin. However obrez with velocity of 600 m/s is also less powerful than SKS.

 

Obrez = ~1700 J

SKS = ~2200 J

 

However SKS is only 63% as powerful as Mosin! See the issue here?

Edited August 13, 2014 by Gews

[hotcakes 348]

But the SKS does kill in one shot. Try shooting a newspawn's torso.

[JPWiser 251]

I highly doubt the bullet would stabilize when shot out of a 6 inch barrel when the twist rate was designed for the 20 inch + barrel.

If I had to guess the bullet would be keyholing all over.

So therefore yes it would be horribly inaccurate? I assumed this was an easy yes or no but seems like no one knows? Doesn't this gun exist? you'd think like a shotgun at anything over 100 meters (made up range off the top of my head) it would be tough to aim....

[Bororm 1156]

I think you guys are delving too far into realism again.