The DayZ endgame

[RAM-bo4250 213]

Stated by parazight

 

"  Experience tells me that the pve in this game will be completely trivial.  "

 

If the devs keep to their vision it won't be COMPLETELY trivial.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 6, 2014 by RAM-bo4250

[mercules 1290]

The problem with saying, "Anything other than PVP will be boring." is that there are a ton of players for which constant PVP is boring. I have been playing games that are designed around PVP since the early 90s. 20 years later I find straight PVP to be boring and mostly revered by the childish. Why I enjoy DayZ, a game that includes PVP is everything else it offers which makes the PVP actually relevant. 

In Battlefield no Fs are given if I die and respawn. There is no adrenaline kick, no care about if the match was won or lost. Same with every other PVP game I play including MMO PVP. It find the entertainment value of it to be slightly above watching TV which is below reading a book. 

Because DayZ is about survival I give a damn when I have spent 3 hours crossing the map and picking up gear along the way. When I hear a gunshot I don't run towards it like I would in most PVP, but I circle around it or hunker down and try and find it's exact location. When running into others even in friendly encounters I feel my blood pressure rise slightly and can tell my brain has a flipped on the 'alert' switch. 

...and when the game ends up boiled down to, "run to building X, find gun, shoot a person or two, die, run to building x, find gun..." It because Battlefield with a respawn delay. 


That is why focusing on PVP will ruin the game for so many people. PVP ~HAS~ to be in the game. It is needed, but without the survival aspect being just as strong and influential on gameplay the game is just another brain dead FPS. I've played the Mod on servers where you have everything in a starting loadout and have no need to even gear up. Brain shuts off and I shoot people then log off 20-30 minutes later out of boredom. 

[RAM-bo4250 213]

 To the point where it's completely unrealistic (even for a made up thing like a zombie).   

 So, in your opinion, how can anything made up be unrealistic? You mean hard, difficult? Like there aren't millions of people in say New York City that turn, and say 100 come after you, especially when you just rang the dinnerbell? I see, totally unrealistic. Unrealistic, because, thousands will be after you. 

[Evil Minion 943]

I think this topic can't be resolved as it is more a matter of preference than anything else. "Endgame" just means so many different things to players. For some its maintaining high gear status and surviving as long as possible, for some its playing with those toys you got and finding new ways to use them, for some its building "civilisation" (for lack of a better term) in cooperation with other players and for some its the thrill of hunting and fighting other players.

 

I started a poll on this to see how the DayZ community is composed (slightly flawed as the poll only covers the main preference completely ignoring any other nuances) - and it turns out most people are either into exploring or gearing/up survival with the main preference of fighting running close third. So the developers should definitely add more aspects to interact with the environment especially in regards to later stages of the game (cooperative goals, finding locations/items and also PvE aspects). Still PvP will be a big aspect as seen by the number of clubs.

[pilgrim* 3513]

..//...

There is nothing more challenging than competing against another human being.

..//..

 

So in this long and dramatic presentation, you say eventually ... that all online games ever made are based on competition between human players

 

and that single-player stuff gets boring

 

ok

Edited August 7, 2014 by pilgrim

[Parazight 1594]

The problem with saying, "Anything other than PVP will be boring." is that there are a ton of players for which constant PVP is boring....

 

Okay, so PVP is not boring to you because you have time invested in acquiring gear, this is what I'm understanding.  Perhaps you're on to something there.  This is totally valid. 

 

In my humble opinion, this time where acquiring gear requires any significant amount of time is relegated to the pre-endgame experience.  So, once the game becomes familiar to the average player and they learn that they can gear up in no time whatsoever, it becomes a non factor.   For example, in the last 200 hours of play I've set upon myself to only collect firearm related loot off of other players, often leaving upgrades behind as gearing isn't really that important.  Because gearing is so easy. Seriously, gearing shouldn't take more than half an hour to get what you need.   I can't recall the last time I've really needed anything more than an SKS and a box of ammo.  Gear is one thing but tactics are leaps and bounds more important.  Perhaps you haven't reached this point in Dayz yet.  But, I'm sure you will.

 

Same with every other PVP game I play including MMO PVP.

 

Your previous forum statements regarding MMO PVP confirm this.  You have stated in the past that MMO PVP (like wow, the biggest)  require a gear grind and that there's no real skill, just gear.  Unfortunately, that's not true.  You can easily acquire a full set of tier 2 (Grievous) pvp gear in less than a week and be totally competitive.  Prideful quality does take a few weeks, but it's not that hard.  As someone who has actually had a decent rating in those games, geared up several toons, and logged -many- hours, I can tell you that what you've said indicates that you are clueless of the truth or just lying about it.

 

Stop... MMO PVP in the games you stated require something, but it isn't skill. Gear and a lot of time on your hands to get it is what makes you able to PVP and do well at it.

<---------Gear--------------><skill>. That is about the right ratio. I didn't mention the build, because 99% of all PVP characters are built from tried over and over again min/max builds any schulb can look up on a wiki.

^^totally not true.  Visit the forums of the people who take these things seriously.  Hundreds of thousands of players that provide in top tier tournaments will disagree.

[Parazight 1594]

So in this long and dramatic presentation, you say eventually ... that all online games are based on competition between human players

 

and that single-player stuff gets boring

 

ok

Yes. 

 

That's what this thread started as, and still is.  After seeing multiple threads and posts where people are clinging to the hope that this will be a good pve-survival game, I took it upon myself to be the good guy and inform them before their dreams are crushed.  If you're expecting anything other than the constant fear of being Killed On Sight then you might want to reconsider.

 

For whatever reason, I feel the need to defend my position after 4 pages.  Maybe that's my fault.  I feel like I'm beating a dead horse here sometimes but feel obligated to properly respond in the thread that I started.

[mercules 1290]

Okay, so PVP is not boring to you because you have time invested in acquiring gear, this is what I'm understanding.  Perhaps you're on to something there.  This is totally valid. 

 

In my humble opinion, this time where acquiring gear requires any significant amount of time is relegated to the pre-endgame experience.  So, once the game becomes familiar to the average player and they learn that they can gear up in no time whatsoever, it becomes a non factor.   For example, in the last 200 hours of play I've set upon myself to only collect firearm related loot off of other players, often leaving upgrades behind as gearing isn't really that important.  Because gearing is so easy. Seriously, gearing shouldn't take more than half an hour to get what you need.   I can't recall the last time I've really needed anything more than an SKS and a box of ammo.  Gear is one thing but tactics are leaps and bounds more important.  Perhaps you haven't reached this point in Dayz yet.  But, I'm sure you will.

What you are missing is that it isn't that I haven't reached this point in DayZ, it's that I have SURPASSED this point in DayZ. Joining a new server in the mod I can be able to defend myself and kill other players in about 15 minutes. Now that doesn't mean I have all the gear I want or need like NVGs or a high end gun, but I can literally make another player dead from a distance in that time. In standalone it hasn't been like that because I've never focused on it.

It's a whole, been there, done that. So I spent 3 hours last night seeing if I could gear up without visiting a town. I could hit out of the way houses and barns. Had nothing when I began. This is on Hardcore Experimental. I now have a Blaze, one speedloader, 100 rounds for it. I have an Engraved M1911 although I am still hunting up a mag for it. I don't have a ballistic helmet, but I don't really need one. I am energized and hydrated. Ran into one person and had a 22 at the time. I warned him off, put one round near him and he left, which was lucky because I was using a sporters with no mag so I had to reload it and I was more or less bluffing. Sure it took me 3 hours instead of 30 minutes but I set a goal of not hitting the cities or military spawns and seeing what I could get and I could actually take out someone with decent gear with what I have.

The difference is attitude. All you care about is PVP so you are going the most efficient route to get to what you perceive as "endgame". For me endgame is seeing how long I can survive and setting interesting goals along the way for myself like I am thinking about crafting a bow and trying that out. It's worthless for PVP so why would I bother when Endgame is PVP, right? Because endgame isn't PVP.

Your previous forum statements regarding MMO PVP confirm this.  You have stated in the past that MMO PVP (like wow, the biggest)  require a gear grind and that there's no real skill, just gear.  Unfortunately, that's not true.  You can easily acquire a full set of tier 2 (Grievous) pvp gear in less than a week and be totally competitive.  Prideful quality does take a few weeks, but it's not that hard.  As someone who has actually had a decent rating in those games, geared up several toons, and logged -many- hours, I can tell you that what you've said indicates that you are clueless of the truth or just lying about it.

Or, you are biased because you don't want to believe that what you take pride in doing really wasn't as skillful as you want to believe. Maybe WoW is totally different, but I doubt it, I know any other MMO I have done PVP in gear determined outcome the majority of the time.

 

^^totally not true.  Visit the forums of the people who take these things seriously.  Hundreds of thousands of players that provide in top tier tournaments will disagree.

They would disagree because they take it seriously. Agreeing with me would make them hypocrites for taking it so seriously.

[Chaingunfighter 917]

I think "endgame" is supposed to mean the phase of the game where you stop worrying about your basic survival (food, drink, medical supplies, clothing, gear and ammo) and the PvE part ceases to be challenging.

 

So making PvE harder, more challenging etc. will only postpone "endgame" and maybe even prevent players from reaching it for a long period of time. However, at some point people will probably raise above the environmental challanges - be it alone or by cooperation - and from this point there is only PvP (which does not mean you cannot be friendly and cooperative but your main challenges will come from other players).

 

In short: "endgame" does not include challenging PvE - as long as PvE remains challenging you did not reach "endgame" - by definition.

That's a very good point.

The problem is when people try and necessitate that the difficulty of the PvE portion of the game needs to be multiplicative of the PvP portion, so that "you're always more concerned with zombies & getting food, and are forced to work together"

That kind of mindset I oppose.

[archamedes 238]

sigh, why does nearly every topic always resort to bickering on this forum? Seriously, some people are like a bunch of kids. So much butthurt

[Parazight 1594]

sigh, why does nearly every topic always resort to bickering on this forum? Seriously, some people are like a bunch of kids. So much butthurt

Bickering?  Where?  It looks like a civilized discussion to me.  I might disagree with Mercules entirely, but that doesn't mean we're bickering like children.  Debating isn't always fighting.

[RAM-bo4250 213]

 

 

After seeing multiple threads and posts where people are clinging to the hope that this will be a good pve-survival game, I took it upon myself to be the good guy and inform them before their dreams are crushed.  If you're expecting anything other than the constant fear of being Killed On Sight then you might want to reconsider.

 

 

Parazight, try to understand will you? Please? I don't know if you are talking about me or not. You are saying that PVP will be the end all and be all of the game. I disagree. A pure PvE game will be not be too challenging. I am not against PvP. I want it all. I want the possibilty of starving or thirsting to death. I want the possibilty of freezing to death by hypothermia. Or dying to sickness and disease. I also want the possibilty OF BEING SHOT IN THE HEAD. I want the possibilty of being killed by zombies. I want to be punished for doing stupid things like shooting in the middle of a city or running around like I haven't a care in the world gathering loot in 5 minutes. I want stupid gameplay to be punished. By the environment, by the zombies and YES BY THE PLAYERS.

 

That is what I believe the endgame will be if and only if the devs stay true to their vision. The vision that started way back in the mod.

[Caboose187 (DayZ) 3036]

The vision that started way back in the mod.

The vision that no longer exists because the majority of the players couldn't handle it so mods like Epoch ran rampant and destroyed Deans vision of DayZ?

Edited August 7, 2014 by Caboose187

[pilgrim* 3513]

What was the endgame in the Mod ?

well, in the vanilla mod.. at the end (leaving aside the scripters) how all the long-term players ended up was:

 

1 ) Collecting gear and hiding it in tents .. so you had 2 of everything, and maybe 2 or 3 main tent locations probably on more than one server

 

2 ) Repairing helicopters, fighting over them, hiding them.. then maybe flying them but not a lot, because everyone else wanted to destroy them, or track them down and steal or destroy them on the ground

 

3 ) Same for vehicles (but vehicles have less class than helis) .. players who wanted vehicles could get them, collect them, and maintain them and hide them.. it's a way of life (and like helicopters, there's not a lot you can do with them except joyride)

 

4 ) Looking for other player's tents or helicopters or vehicles and destroying them and stealing stuff

 

......

 

AND - if you were often on a server you came to know most of the other local players, so you did not shoot them on sight because that was impolite.. you know each other. So there was a general feeling against strangers who showed up, because they were fair game.. and they were hunted. This is the case on all servers I played, not just one or two.

 

AND - when you knew more or less everyone, you could have gentlemanly agreed wars and shootouts, between clans or groups, as a kind of sport. Some servers did that exclusively, much more than others, so some well-known servers were 40/40 pvp, everyone in the same town, just .. fighting .. that pvp continued from the start of the Mod right up to the start of SA.. so no endgame there, just a style of play.

 

SO - what fits with "endgame" in all this ? = Collecting loot and fighting over loot collections, or just stealing loot collections from other players.

 

(and some players got really pissed if they lost their tents - I know one admin who had his helicopter stolen and crashed - he ranted all day and then closed down the server for ever . So posessions was a key thing. And you can steal other player's stuff without them knowing who you are. Or you can call them out over it.

 

so together with the day to day excitement stuff, the endgame was LOOT, I guess .. what else could it be ? You already know how to survive.

Edited August 7, 2014 by pilgrim

[King Raptor 191]

TLDR: dayz pve will get stale. It's inevitable that the game will be a pvp wasteland.

 

 

I recall it being way more difficult to survive in the mod than it ever was in SA. I think the elements will become a large threat as the game progresses.

On top of that, the zombies will become a huge danger as well. Yesterday we were fighting someone and a zombie effectively prevented my squadmate from aiding me. It was a nuisance this time around but I can imagine he would have had to fee the scene if there had been more.

 

It's too early to tell what DayZ will be like but I think it'll be man versus environment where co-operation becomes important, especially when it comes to medical supplies. Or a dog-eat-dog kind of world because people want to keep their stuff

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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