A new approach to the bandits and heros situation

[con_hathy (DayZ) 8]

Read me: Many people seem to be missing the point of this post. They think I want to eliminate Bandits, which I don't and I say that multiple times. They also say people should play what they want, and as I say bellow that is why the playing field needs to be leveled. Also I've been told that it is level because "We all have the same in game characters with same set of in game skill and access to the same weapons", Which is true, but as anyone who has tried to play the hero way knows, that shared character makes it very hard to be friendly. The field is not level, if it was then laying prone and shooting everyone who goes by would not be the best way to play the game. I also don't think the solution is to make the game so hard that you can't be a lone wolf, that is destroying one of the play types, not balancing it. I've also been told it's my own fault I died because I "can't protect myself" well I'm sorry that I felt like giving a can of beans to a new-spawn, I deserved to get shot by a sniper hidden in the woods that I had no real way to defend myself against. Well unless I was the sniper and I just shot everyone, they should have protected themselves.

 

There is an obvious KOS/bandit problem in the standalone. I know that the mod attempted to fix the situation simply by changing your skin when you kill a player, but there are problems with this. 

 

1.) You can be labeled as a bandit even if it was self defense

2.) It still had very little consequences for the bandits

3.) It would easy to cover the skin with your gear

4.) Having "bad" people look different is unrealistic and maybe a little prejudice

 

My system should fix most of these problems, though I know it may have some of its own. It is based on karma. The players can't tell who is a bandit, but the game will go out of its way to make their lives miserable. Zombies are more attracted to them, they are more likely to get sick, and maybe the really bad people will have a tendency to trip and fall off buildings. For good people it would be the opposite: zombies don't like the way they taste, they have the immune system of a god, and they aren't as clumsy on roof tops. The punishments and rewards need a lot more work but this is just an interesting idea I had.

 

Now for the implementation of the system:

It will not be based on killing, okay yes it will but it will be very different. Imagine a scale from 1 to 10. 10 is nicest, 1 is a jerk, and 5 is neutral. All players begin with a 5 and if they kill bad people it goes up, if they kill good or neutral people then they go down. After they die their score will not be reset, they have to actually do good things to move back up. You want to work for a 10 so that you can have the rewards of the karma system. You can still be a bandit if you really want so that element isn't removed from the game which keeps things interesting. This is the simplest form, but there could also be a way for players to "rate" each other when they meet. They would have to be in proximity so people couldn't just down vote people for kicks, but I'm not sure how you would implement something like this. They could also move up if they kill zombies chasing other players or rescuing someone who has been handcuffed and left for dead. This is still very basic and would take a lot of work but it seems to be the best option to me.

 

I am open to suggestions and will enjoy hearing your feedback. 

 

A quick note:

The reason I am not purposely creating pros for bandits and cons for heroes is because they already exist naturally in the game. Bandits are safe because they don't bother trusting anyone, and they get gear for free. Heroes, as of now, have really no pros with the exception of feeling good about themselves, however they have a ton of cons like being shot on sight a lot, and as a result of this they also have to hunt for gear very often but can't just loot dead people. That is why the problem exists in the first place. If the system hurts and helps both sides nothing will change. I want to make it easier to be a hero and harder to be a bandit, but only a little so that they fall on to a more level playing field so people can pick their play style based on how they feel rather than becoming a bandit because they die less and get cool gear, which is what is happening now. This does go both ways, if there are a lot of perks for heroes then the bandits will die off and I admit that would make the game very boring. I just don't feel like we should hurt people for not KOSing because they already are. 

Edited July 21, 2014 by con_hathy

[Evil Minion 943]

Why would you punish people for being bandits?

[PencilTips 6]

There should be perks of being a bandit also, I'm not a bandit and never will be, I'm also not a perfect hero. I fall in the range of a 7 or 8, since I help people out when I can, if I see some Bambi getting bullied by a group of four or five and I'm at a Sniper Hill, I probably won't help out if I'll be easy to get rid of but if it's one or two, I would definitely step in. Heros should have perks and cons, for example they can hear footsteps louder and  see better by making things more noticeable by like 20%. Their cons would be maybe getting sick easier or always a bit more hungry. Bandits should have pros and cons as well, they could be faster by maybe 10% and they could stay without food for longer times or be more energetic than others when hungry. Their cons would be less aware of surroundings, maybe their viewing range is decreased or hard to see people in the distance really far away.The people in between 1 and 10 should have better percentages of those perks and cons once they near a hero or bandit character.

 

You should never try to give bandits the awful side of the game! Everyone deserves fair advantages even if they are jerks! This will cause everyone to be a hero and maybe many people would leave DayZ as there would be no thrill left in the game. You always have to have bandits and always heros, and always the people inbetween that are wanted by both.

[con_hathy (DayZ) 8]

The reason I am not purposely creating pros for bandits and cons for heroes is because they already exist naturally in the game. Bandits are safe because they don't bother trusting anyone, and they get gear for free. Heroes, as of now, have really no pros with the exception of feeling good about themselves, however they have a ton of cons like being shot on sight a lot, and as a result of this they also have to hunt for gear very often but can't just loot dead people. That is why the problem exists in the first place. If the system hurts and helps both sides nothing will change. I want to make it easier to be a hero and harder to be a bandit, but only a little so that they fall on to a more level playing field so people can pick their play style based on how they feel rather than becoming a bandit because they die less and get cool gear, which is what is happening now. This does go both ways, if there are a lot of perks for heroes then the bandits will die off and I admit that would make the game very boring. I just don't feel like we should hurt people for not KOSing because they already are. 

 

[pilgrim* 3514]

..//..

maybe the really bad people will have a tendency to trip and fall off buildings.

..//..

 

wow lol

I don't think this is credible - but it's a brilliant and truly evil idea

[Mullraugh 1151]

In an apocalypse situation, there would realistically be around a 50/50 split between good people and bad people, maybe a 60/40 in the good people's favor. Unfortunately DayZ is around a 90/10 split in the bad people's favor solely because it's a video game and people on the internet are douchebags for no reason other than to make themselves feel better or to entertain themselves. If DayZ was the only video game that was ever invented and there were no other games out there, I'm sure the bandit to decent human being ratio would be more even since people would not be under the influence of modern "Shoot 'em up" FPS hardcore mlg pr0 games like Call of Duty or Battlefield.

 

Everyone is selfish in this game, some more than others. If we were to even the bandit to survivor ratio, it would mean that most people will have to swallow their immature teenage self-pride and actually interact with complete strangers to accomplish a common goal, which is survival.

 

So, I believe, the only cure for bandits is to make survival so hard that people are forced to team up purely because they'll die on their own.

[General Zod 1118]

The players can't tell who is a bandit, but the game will go out of its way to make their lives miserable. Zombies are more attracted to them, they are more likely to get sick, and maybe the really bad people will have a tendency to trip and fall off buildings. For good people it would be the opposite: zombies don't like the way they taste, they have the immune system of a god, and they aren't as clumsy on roof tops. The punishments and rewards need a lot more work but this is just an interesting idea I had.

How about we add a third type of people in game : those who post stupid things like that on forum. For them the game will go even more out of it's way and uninstall itself, than not allow you to install DayZ ever again. 

[con_hathy (DayZ) 8]

So, I believe, the only cure for bandits is to make survival so hard that people are forced to team up purely because they'll die on their own.

I'm not sure people want a game so hard they can't play without friends.

[con_hathy (DayZ) 8]

How about we add a third type of people in game : those who post stupid things like that on forum. For them the game will go even more out of it's way and uninstall itself, than not allow you to install DayZ ever again. 

I don't see why you wouldn't want to level the playing field. If all you want to do is shoot people I'm surprised you spent $30 to buy a game about survival. You could have bought any number of other games. For starters ARMA, Call of Duty, Battlefeild, or one of the thousands of other shooters.

[General Zod 1118]

I don't see why you wouldn't want to level the playing field. If all you want to do is shoot people I'm surprised you spent $30 to buy a game about survival. You could have bought any number of other games. For starters ARMA, Call of Duty, Battlefeild, or one of the thousands of other shooters.

Fuck cod and fuck bf. 

The field is levelled now. We all have the same in game characters with same set of in game skill and access to the same weapons, just because you can't protect your sorry ass doesn't mean we need to change the game to make those who want to kill miserable. The game is meant to be a sandbox and that means that it will not punish any play style. 

You want to survive and interact with others ? Stay away from large towns and military bases. Find group of people to hang around with. And most importantly something that not a single one of you anti kos crying babies figured out. 

Until they make PvE a challenge, until the survival element is in the game (because it's not there now) the PvP will not stop. Why ?

BECAUSE THERE IS NOT MUCH ELSE TO DO !

The survival will start when they add hundreds of zeds and when that happens you won't have to make them more hostile towards killers, because gunshot will attract them anyway. 

The survival will start when I can't find 100 SKS bullets in one town so that it simply won't possible to be trigger happy. 

The survival will start when there are diseases and harsh water, so that asking for help is better than than shooting him and ruining the medicine he might have. 

Edited July 21, 2014 by General Zod

[King Raptor 191]

There is an obvious KOS/bandit problem in the standalone

 

OBVIOUSLY! Sjeesh, we should just start banning people who play within the boundaries of the game as laid out by the developers.

I think the easiest way to discern "bandits" from "heros" is as follows: "heros" should not carry guns.

Simple. Stop carrying guns if you do not want violence to occur. And when someone robs you, try not to run away and try not to shoot back.

 

 

e of a 7 or 8, since I help people out when I can, if I see some Bambi getting bullied by a group of four or five and I'm at a Sniper Hill, I probably won't help out if I'll be easy to get rid of but if it's one or two, I would definitely step in. Heros should have perks and cons, for example they can hear footsteps louder and  see better by making things more noticeable by like 20%. Their cons would be maybe getting sick easier or always a bit more hungry. Bandits should have pros and cons as well, they could be faster by maybe 10% and they could stay without food for longer times or be more energetic than others when hungry.

 

No!!! Better yet, heros should have auto-aim and bandits should have infinite storage capacity!

 

How about we add a third type of people in game : those who post stupid things like that on forum. For them the game will go even more out of it's way and uninstall itself, than not allow you to install DayZ ever again.

 

 

3-month Steam ban should be their ability. And the more they level it up, the longer it'll be.

What? I thought you all liked leveling stats!

[Evil Minion 943]

How about we add a third type of people in game : those who post stupid things like that on forum. For them the game will go even more out of it's way and uninstall itself, than not allow you to install DayZ ever again. 

And you just earned your ticket.

[way455 40]

I like a karma system but there needs to be perks for both sides. If it's 90/10 bandit vs. hero it's easy to weight perks on way or the other to slide the balance a bit.

As much as I hate getting shot by someone who wants to lay prone for half an hour in the corner of a building just waiting for someone to walk by... That's their right to play an open sandbox survival game their way. Should they be rewarded for that kind of play? Probably not but that doesn't mean I think their experience should be lessened.

A great perk/trait to discourage KOS would be losing inventory slots. The more people you kill, the less you can carry. That has to be countered with ability to carry a second weapon or extra attachments (that actually work) for your weapons like sleeves for ammo or two scopes. They get a slot for ammo basically but lose two for gear. You want to kill a lot, fine but you will to look for food more because you don't have room to store it. And they need make extreme conditions affect your aim and stuff. If you are starving or gray from lack of blood your aim should be poor.

Higher Karma people could carry more but can only carry one primary and one secondary. Having limited ammo or something could prove troublesome, you could get out gunned in a fight, can't share, etc. Maybe allow them to open cans with more items or something or have med supplies work more effectively maybe.

It's not a bad concept.

[con_hathy (DayZ) 8]

 just because you can't protect your sorry ass doesn't mean we need to change the game

Well I'm kind of confused here, you said that people should be allowed to play how they like, but you then say that I should stop playing how I play because not shooting people is stupid. Also if you are such a big supporter of KOS then I really don't understand why you don't like shooters, that is the whole point of them, KOSing. Or is there still too much teamwork and you just want to kill everyone?

 

I do agree with you on something, those pesky new-spawns, they should really learn to defend themselves, idiots, getting sniped after only being alive for a minute, it would be so easy to avoid if they would just play as bandits. Right?

 

You said that there is nothing else to do so you play it like a shooter, but all of us "KOS-cry-babies" seem to get along just fine already with the hunting elements that they've added and occasionally killing one of you who thinks it's fun to snipe new-spawns. We do like violence, we just direct it at you and you seem pretty butt-hurt about that. Once again if you can't enjoy the survival aspect that really is there, then DayZ is not the game for you. 

 

And a final note, the feild being level means that YOU don't have the upper-hand, no one does. I don't know if anyone ever explained that concept to you. Also there is more to it than the same character. Try to be a hero for a day and see, hand out beans, hunt bandits, and just, don't shoot everyone you meet, it won't kill you, actually scratch that, it will kill you over and over because you are at a disadvantage.

[OrLoK 16186]

Hello there

 

@all Remember to keep those posts pleasant.

 

Try to explain why one agrees or disagrees with an issue. Getting personal and insulting is just not on.

 

Sometimes people just havnt "seen" what may be obvious to you and/or other people.

 

Argue and debate, dont insult.

 

Rgds

 

LoK

[General Zod 1118]

Well I'm kind of confused here, you said that people should be allowed to play how they like, but you then say that I should stop playing how I play because not shooting people is stupid. Also if you are such a big supporter of KOS then I really don't understand why you don't like shooters, that is the whole point of them, KOSing. Or is there still too much teamwork and you just want to kill everyone?

 

I do agree with you on something, those pesky new-spawns, they should really learn to defend themselves, idiots, getting sniped after only being alive for a minute, it would be so easy to avoid if they would just play as bandits. Right?

 

You said that there is nothing else to do so you play it like a shooter, but all of us "KOS-cry-babies" seem to get along just fine already with the hunting elements that they've added and occasionally killing one of you who thinks it's fun to snipe new-spawns. We do like violence, we just direct it at you and you seem pretty butt-hurt about that. Once again if you can't enjoy the survival aspect that really is there, then DayZ is not the game for you. 

 

And a final note, the feild being level means that YOU don't have the upper-hand, no one does. I don't know if anyone ever explained that concept to you. Also there is more to it than the same character. Try to be a hero for a day and see, hand out beans, hunt bandits, and just, don't shoot everyone you meet, it won't kill you, actually scratch that, it will kill you over and over because you are at a disadvantage.

Wrong I said you shouldn't be allowed to play not because you don't want to kill, but because you want to punish those who do. Oh I like shooter, just not a piece of dog shit unfinished crap like BF or CoD with levelling and grinding to make it even worse.

I seldom kill new spawns. There is no fun there, my type of kill is up close personal when enemy is armed or when sniping it's the full military gear guy. Again I never said anything about killing new spawns did it once, got bored stopped doing it, stop blaming me for that. 

Hunting ? You means stand 50 meters from a deer because it won't run away and than shoot it ? Sounds fun. If you want to direct violence at me do it yourself, instead of having the game do it for you. 

DayZ is the game for me, it will be even more when they add the survival on proper level. What is there to survive now in DayZ ?

- Food is common, very common

- Water is always clean and easy to find

- There are no diseases

- There is no extreme weather

- Few zeds

So name those things than will make me struggle for survival, please do. 

 

As for being a hero, I did helped some guys, saved few newbies chased by a guy with an axe while I was sniping. I may not be a hero, but I'm not a newbie killer either. 

I'm just against game punishing or rewarding any and all types of play. 

Edited July 21, 2014 by General Zod

[papajo 13]

I like the karma idea actually I thought of it myself and was about to start a topic but I saw this relevant topic so I am going to post here..

I dont think karma should be a "rating" style thing were a player can give or take karma dont see the point and the abuse probability is real. 

What I think karma should be is this:

Karma should be registered in game by the server according to kills.

More specifically, If you kill a player with 0 or positive karma you get negative karma.

If a player with 0 positive or even negative karma (especially if you have negative karma its a way to redeem yourself) kills an other player with negative karma he should get positive karma.

If a player with 0 or positive karma kills a player with 0 karma (or positive obviously) he gets negative karma.



What should karma result to?

I dont believe in punishing negative karma, what I like is a give and take situation so that a player can choose his/her path.

What follows is only some quick thought suggestion just as an example.. what really matters to me (if a karma system would be implemented) is that "gain something loose something else" policy for the players to choose what they like in terms of in game behavior and survival strategy.

So for example if you have negative karma you could be more vulnerable to zombies and get aggroed by them on a bigger radius on the other hand you could deal more damage to other players and receive less damage from them. (the more negative karma you get the more those stats would get higher)


And a player with positive karma could get less agro by zombies be less vulnerable from them (less chance to bleed for example besides less damage taken) have bonuses when he consumes food and if he has a very high positive karma rate he could also have some critical hit chances against villains both in defence and offence(so that negative karma increased defence and damage against players still would have a meaning for them but also giving a change for a super hero to take down a low, normal and even a super villain)

Super Villains(I mean those with lots of negative karma) because of the critical stats of the superheroes may have a hard time to take them down but should easily (or atleast easier than superheroes) kill normal or low heroes and even more easy 0 karma.

Villain vs Villain. because according to the above examples should have higher stats against players (= that means against each other) the outcome should be based on their karma as well so the one with more karma should have even bigger attack stats and defense stats so he should (if his aim is equally good as his opponent) be able to kill him...  so there is a balance.. a villain with higher negative karma will do more damage but needs to land his shots on you in order to deal that damage.. so if you are a better shooter you still can get him down if you have lower negative karma or 0 or small positive karma etc. 

 

Edited November 26, 2014 by papajo

[General Zod 1118]

So for example if you have negative karma you could be more vulnerable to zombies and get aggroed by them on a bigger radius on the other hand you could deal more damage to other players and receive less damage from them. (the more negative karma you get the more those stats would get higher)

There are no words in any language to describe how bad this idea is. 

[pilgrim* 3514]

Yo! people and General Zod (friend of Ming)

 

I think you are all great players .. and also that the whole discussion is silly... but some of the ideas you people propose are brilliant ideas (and funny) although they will never be in the game.

 

"having bad karma makes you fall of roofs more often" - genius

"heroes should have auto-aim and bandits should have infinite backpacks - genius

"getting good karma for killing bad karma" - wow - superb

 

suppose you had really really good karma.. you could maybe just beam it at another player by holding your palm up, and that other player would get good karma and drop his gun and stop being a bandit.. you would have (in fact) a follower..

so we'd have a game with religious leaders in it, you could literally follow them and when they felt like it they could beam some more good karma at you.. maybe you would live longer with less water.. or as a group you could collect enough good karma to deflect bullets

also, there would be a player so full of Bad Karma he could melt holes in walls and make you shoot yourself in the head, just by beaming bad karma at you, or look at you so that you fell dead, He could make cans of beans appear, but if you ate them you would become more evil with every can..

these religious leaders, the good and the bad, should glow a bit, and maybe float instead of running... ?

 

I think instead of Good Karma and Bad Karma ... which will never be in the game ..

What SHOULD be in the game is ALL you people in this thread.. bring your own karma right along with your keyboard ..this game needs people like all of you.

keep doing it.

 

xx pilgrim

Edited November 27, 2014 by pilgrim

[papajo 13]

Yo! people and General Zod (friend of Ming)

 

I think you are all great players .. and also that the whole discussion is silly... but some of the ideas you people propose are brilliant ideas (and funny) although they will never be in the game.

 

"having bad karma makes you fall of roofs more often" - genius

"heroes should have auto-aim and bandits should have infinite backpacks - genius

"getting good karma for killing bad karma" - wow - superb

 

suppose you had really really good karma.. you could maybe just beam it at another player by holding your palm up, and that other player would get good karma and drop his gun and stop being a bandit.. you would have (in fact) a follower..

so we'd have a game with religious leaders in it, you could literally follow them and when they felt like it they could beam some more good karma at you.. maybe you would live longer with less water.. or as a group you could collect enough good karma to deflect bullets

also, there would be a player so full of Bad Karma he could melt holes in walls and make you shoot yourself in the head, just by beaming bad karma at you, or look at you so that you fell dead, He could make cans of beans appear, but if you ate them you would become more evil with every can..

these religious leaders, the good and the bad, should glow a bit, and maybe float instead of running... ?

 

I think instead of Good Karma and Bad Karma ... which will never be in the game ..

What SHOULD be in the game is ALL you people in this thread.. bring your own karma right along with your keyboard ..this game needs people like all of you.

keep doing it.

 

xx pilgrim

Dont get silly...

We dont use the Karma term with its exact spiritual meaning.. I dont know how long you are into gaming and stuff but karma systems exist in games for 10 years or so,

Its a point system basically that with its help you can determine certain gameplay patterns. and with that info a server for example good give/take to a specified player some attributes.

And I dont know why you find this logic stupid or irrelevant with the game. 

Edited November 27, 2014 by papajo

[Caboose187 (DayZ) 3036]

And I dont know why you find this logic stupid or irrelevant with the game. 

The game isn't suppose to dictate how you play, that's why.  That's the difference between open world sandbox and games that hold your hand and tell you what you can and cannot do.

[papajo 13]

The game isn't suppose to dictate how you play, that's why.  That's the difference between open world sandbox and games that hold your hand and tell you what you can and cannot do.

were is the hand holding? did you even read my suggestion for karma system? or just the main topic? (because yes I found some elements on the main topic that match your description)

Its entirely up to the player and how he plays in the map. 

[B4GEL 175]

I think instead of Good Karma and Bad Karma ... which will never be in the game ..

What SHOULD be in the game is ALL you people in this thread.. bring your own karma right along with your keyboard ..this game needs people like all of you.

keep doing it.

 

Beautifully said

 

[Jhunt7507 29]

How about no.

[Geckofrog7 1168]

While I don't agree with OP's ideas either..2 much ad hominem 4 me.